Moto gp Silverstone -- spoilers--
Discussion
joema said:
I understand Cal's desire to have a factory bike but did he think he could do what Rossi couldnt? I'm sure he would have known that too and expected a better bike. So ducati must have really just paid lip servive to improving the bike. If he has managed to be brought out of his contract and get on an HRC bike next year has done very well.
People do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
I agree with most points, howeverPeople do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
Cal didnt have to buy himself out of his contract, he was wise enough to have a break clause written into it then used it to his advantage this year. Nakamoto, Livio, Lucio are not mugs, they wouldnt sign Cal if they didnt beleive.
Johno said:
egor110 said:
Obviously factory bike does mean a lot to Cal, think back to the end of 2013 when only a factory seat would do,none of this satellite machinery with there feeble pay would do for Cal factory was his only wish.
You really do have a downer on the only Brit to have been successful in MGP for years don't you.As cal said at the time, when was the last time you saw a satellite bike win a race? 2006, Tiger Toni and none since.
Riding a hand me down bike in MGP where the rules keep changing is not like it was at the end of the 500's era when satellite bikes regularly made wins. The development curve is different and the changing rules don't help the situation.
Yes he's going to earn more money, but inn a career than can be ended very quickly I don't begrudge any rider the chance.
Your argument seems to be he should earn less for his family and his future and be happy getting the odd result rather than trying to secure his financial future and see if the only factory seat available to him could lead to more results.
But no, much easier to say he moved for the money only.
If I offered you the chance to do whatever job you do now, same risks, same hours, same description, but for 5 times the salary. What would you say? No
k what a few random people on a forum think.Now onto your last paragraph , if you offered me more pay for same job then yes i'd take it but what i wouldn't do is slag you off at every opportunity.
If i took your money and after a year left you i'd keep quiet keep my head down and get on with the job, and you know that as a employer that's what you'd expect of me .
I truly believe next year redding is going to be matching crutchlow and then there will be yet more excuses as to why it's not happening for him.
Lastly why won't cal adapt his riding style to suit the ducati? Rossi and Lorenzo have all re learnt there riding styles to try and keep up with marquez yet cal thinks he knows better.
Edited by egor110 on Tuesday 2nd September 14:08
Lincsblokey said:
joema said:
I understand Cal's desire to have a factory bike but did he think he could do what Rossi couldnt? I'm sure he would have known that too and expected a better bike. So ducati must have really just paid lip servive to improving the bike. If he has managed to be brought out of his contract and get on an HRC bike next year has done very well.
People do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
I agree with most points, howeverPeople do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
Cal didnt have to buy himself out of his contract, he was wise enough to have a break clause written into it then used it to his advantage this year. Nakamoto, Livio, Lucio are not mugs, they wouldnt sign Cal if they didnt beleive.
Talking of factory bikes, Scott Redding will be on a factory Honda next year, who runs it is still to be decided.
Michael Bartholemy - "In this moment, HRC, (Shuhei) Nakamoto and (Livio) Suppo they guarantee us that Scott will be on the factory Honda for next year, but they need to see where this bike can run. I believe they are talking to Lucio (Lucio Cecchinello, LCR Honda MotoGP) and to Aspar and they have made an offer to us. So we have had an offer on the table since a little over a week for the bike."
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2014/Reddings+Honda+...
Michael Bartholemy - "In this moment, HRC, (Shuhei) Nakamoto and (Livio) Suppo they guarantee us that Scott will be on the factory Honda for next year, but they need to see where this bike can run. I believe they are talking to Lucio (Lucio Cecchinello, LCR Honda MotoGP) and to Aspar and they have made an offer to us. So we have had an offer on the table since a little over a week for the bike."
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2014/Reddings+Honda+...
Centurion07 said:
How "factory" is "factory" though? A couple of bits here and there or a full Repsol bike just in different colours?
Either way it'll be fantastic to see what he can do on a properly competitive bike.
All the Hondas start the season the same, its then just the updates that the repsol boys get throughout the season that make the difference.Either way it'll be fantastic to see what he can do on a properly competitive bike.
Some interesting thoughts on this thread..
Being a huge Ducatisti I have watched with interest, I thought Cal would be a good fit but whatever has gone wrong there has change my opinion of Cal. Yes we all know he can be outspoken and sometimes rightly so, however he's getting paid an immense amount of money to ride the bike, do the PR and promote the brand that's his job top and bottom. What we have got is a petulent child and effectively biting the hand that feeds.
As I understand it when at Tech3 he was earning circa £300K PA, the "factory" ride meant a big increase in pay, and Ducati are rumoured to be paying him £3M PA, a big leap and tax free to boot, so he should just put up and shut up!
We all know the bike in it's current guise isn't great, yes the open rules play into Ducati's hands and Dovi/Iannone use that very well, what Ducati are cleverly doing is developing a bike ready for the open rules also.
Personally I'm glad to see him go, he's brought nothing to Ducati and has tarnised the brand, Ducati produce less bikes than any manufacturer on that grid so to be even on the grid and getting the odd front row/podium is incredible, lets not forget this.
I wish him well next year but I think he needs to be challenging for podiums regardless of the bike/team, there are too many good riders waiting to get into the class - Miller, Vinales, Rabat, Marquez to name a few, his time is now not only to perform but also to make the money that he'll need in later life.
Scott is our future in the series, we have to remember he's the youngest ever grand-prix winner and has won a few races in Moto2, nearly won the championship if it wasn't for injury and he's making that bike do stuff it isn't supposed to. I'd like to see him offered a big opportunity which it sounds like he might get.
Being a huge Ducatisti I have watched with interest, I thought Cal would be a good fit but whatever has gone wrong there has change my opinion of Cal. Yes we all know he can be outspoken and sometimes rightly so, however he's getting paid an immense amount of money to ride the bike, do the PR and promote the brand that's his job top and bottom. What we have got is a petulent child and effectively biting the hand that feeds.
As I understand it when at Tech3 he was earning circa £300K PA, the "factory" ride meant a big increase in pay, and Ducati are rumoured to be paying him £3M PA, a big leap and tax free to boot, so he should just put up and shut up!
We all know the bike in it's current guise isn't great, yes the open rules play into Ducati's hands and Dovi/Iannone use that very well, what Ducati are cleverly doing is developing a bike ready for the open rules also.
Personally I'm glad to see him go, he's brought nothing to Ducati and has tarnised the brand, Ducati produce less bikes than any manufacturer on that grid so to be even on the grid and getting the odd front row/podium is incredible, lets not forget this.
I wish him well next year but I think he needs to be challenging for podiums regardless of the bike/team, there are too many good riders waiting to get into the class - Miller, Vinales, Rabat, Marquez to name a few, his time is now not only to perform but also to make the money that he'll need in later life.
Scott is our future in the series, we have to remember he's the youngest ever grand-prix winner and has won a few races in Moto2, nearly won the championship if it wasn't for injury and he's making that bike do stuff it isn't supposed to. I'd like to see him offered a big opportunity which it sounds like he might get.
egor110 said:
I have no downer as you put it on crutchlow and even if i did i'm sure he couldn't give a fk what a few random people on a forum think.
Now onto your last paragraph , if you offered me more pay for same job then yes i'd take it but what i wouldn't do is slag you off at every opportunity.
If i took your money and after a year left you i'd keep quiet keep my head down and get on with the job, and you know that as a employer that's what you'd expect of me .
I truly believe next year redding is going to be matching crutchlow and then there will be yet more excuses as to why it's not happening for him.
Lastly why won't cal adapt his riding style to suit the ducati? Rossi and Lorenzo have all re learnt there riding styles to try and keep up with marquez yet cal thinks he knows better.
Does he slag them off at every opportunity, or is that just your take on it? Or is it the popular position to adopt, it doesn't challenge the convention or consider why etc .... We only get to see what's published, all of us, I just don't believe the superfluous coverage and commentary is the best guidance to what's really going on.k what a few random people on a forum think.Now onto your last paragraph , if you offered me more pay for same job then yes i'd take it but what i wouldn't do is slag you off at every opportunity.
If i took your money and after a year left you i'd keep quiet keep my head down and get on with the job, and you know that as a employer that's what you'd expect of me .
I truly believe next year redding is going to be matching crutchlow and then there will be yet more excuses as to why it's not happening for him.
Lastly why won't cal adapt his riding style to suit the ducati? Rossi and Lorenzo have all re learnt there riding styles to try and keep up with marquez yet cal thinks he knows better.
Edited by egor110 on Tuesday 2nd September 14:08
Does Cal think he knows better, or is that just your opinion forms from a jaundiced position?
I may argue that Rossi and Lorenzo have got a bike worth adapting their style for. Do you think Cal never tried, do you think he's never tried, do you really believe that he's that arrogant and not competitive at all, can't be bothered, isn't interested etc?
He changed his style on the Yamaha, he changed his style to suit the new tank on it, the new brakes etc etc
What he has said I believe is that he did adopt a different style and it didn't work, add in mech failures, broken promises, injuries, broken relationships etc ... Why bother any more.
I'm not saying he's been a saint, but you only read what's published as I do, however I don't believe he gave up as easily as you describe, or that he thinks he knows better or that all these others have changed so much, adapt yes, change no.
I do not hold with this argument that any rider can change their style fundamentally, adapt to the bike, the conditions and the tyres yes, but fundamental change doesn't happen, or at least very very rarely.
As you so aptly describe Rossi and Lorenzo have, what have they changed? Lorenzo struggles with being on the edge of the tyre longer than others, but he hasn't changed that, it's an issue he has to manage with tyre choice and set up. What is Rossi doing so differently than before? Please enlighten me.
The bikes change every year and the top riders adapt every year to it, so does Cal. To undertake a fundamental shift is not something anyone does, as your inherent style is something developed over years and years and doesn't get thrown out.
The WSB boys struggle with compressing the front tyre enough, they don't brake hard enough, then the carry too much speed in the corners and then they don't get it stood up quickly enough, but everyone knows this, I'm interested in your views of how Rossi and Lorenzo have changed their styles.
Tyres let riders get their elbows down, plus sticking them out in the wind. The head by the front fork is all Marquez (& Redding) .... Lorenzo getting his elbow down doesn't mean he's winning races, perhaps he should change his style.
Styles make great debates, they develop over time, they mature if you like, they change ... But not significantly or quickly. They are refined over time, it's why Marquez is the new future, he's not finished refining his and he'll only get better.
Edited by Johno on Tuesday 2nd September 15:23
egor110 said:
I have no downer as you put it on crutchlow and even if i did i'm sure he couldn't give a fk what a few random people on a forum think.
Now onto your last paragraph , if you offered me more pay for same job then yes i'd take it but what i wouldn't do is slag you off at every opportunity.
If i took your money and after a year left you i'd keep quiet keep my head down and get on with the job, and you know that as a employer that's what you'd expect of me .
I truly believe next year redding is going to be matching crutchlow and then there will be yet more excuses as to why it's not happening for him.
Lastly why won't cal adapt his riding style to suit the ducati? Rossi and Lorenzo have all re learnt there riding styles to try and keep up with marquez yet cal thinks he knows better.
Does he slag them off at every opportunity, or is that just your take on it? Or is it the popular position to adopt, it doesn't challenge the convention or consider why etc .... We only get to see what's published, all of us, I just don't believe the superfluous coverage and commentary is the best guidance to what's really going on.k what a few random people on a forum think.Now onto your last paragraph , if you offered me more pay for same job then yes i'd take it but what i wouldn't do is slag you off at every opportunity.
If i took your money and after a year left you i'd keep quiet keep my head down and get on with the job, and you know that as a employer that's what you'd expect of me .
I truly believe next year redding is going to be matching crutchlow and then there will be yet more excuses as to why it's not happening for him.
Lastly why won't cal adapt his riding style to suit the ducati? Rossi and Lorenzo have all re learnt there riding styles to try and keep up with marquez yet cal thinks he knows better.
Edited by egor110 on Tuesday 2nd September 14:08
Does Cal think he knows better, or is that just your opinion forms from a jaundiced position?
I may argue that Rossi and Lorenzo have got a bike worth adapting their style for. Do you think Cal never tried, do you think he's never tried, do you really believe that he's that arrogant and not competitive at all, can't be bothered, isn't interested etc?
He changed his style on the Yamaha, he changed his style to suit the new tank on it, the new brakes etc etc
What he has said I believe is that he did adopt a different style and it didn't work, add in mech failures, broken promises, injuries, broken relationships etc ... Why bother any more.
I'm not saying he's been a saint, but you only read what's published as I do, however I don't believe he gave up as easily as you describe, or that he thinks he knows better or that all these others have changed so much, adapt yes, change no.
I do not hold with this argument that any rider can change their style fundamentally, adapt to the bike, the conditions and the tyres yes, but fundamental change doesn't happen, or at least very very rarely.
As you so aptly describe Rossi and Lorenzo have, what have they changed? Lorenzo struggles with being on the edge of the tyre longer than others, but he hasn't changed that, it's an issue he has to manage with tyre choice and set up. What is Rossi doing so differently than before? Please enlighten me.
The bikes change every year and the top riders adapt every year to it, so does Cal. To undertake a fundamental shift is not something anyone does, as your inherent style is something developed over years and years and doesn't get thrown out.
The WSB boys struggle with compressing the front tyre enough, they don't brake hard enough, then the carry too much speed in the corners and then they don't get it stood up quickly enough, but everyone knows this, I'm interested in your views of how Rossi and Lorenzo have changed their styles.
Tyres let riders get their elbows down, plus sticking them out in the wind. The head by the front fork is all Marquez (& Redding) .... Lorenzo getting his elbow down doesn't mean he's winning races, perhaps he should change his style.
Styles make great debates, they develop over time, they mature if you like, they change ... But not significantly or quickly. They are refined over time, it's why Marquez is the new future, he's not finished refining his and he'll only get better.
Edited by Johno on Tuesday 2nd September 15:25
Wow a lot to reply to but lets clarify a few things:
You don't have to agree with me , it's fine we can both have opposite views, i'm sure people who's job is racing a motorcycle couldn't give a flying fk what a postie or someone who may of raced in some small race series.
He changed his style on the Yamaha, he changed his style to suit the new tank on it, the new brakes etc etc
Did he not get the new tank try it for a few races then return to the original tank?
What he has said I believe is that he did adopt a different style and it didn't work, add in mech failures, broken promises, injuries, broken relationships etc ... Why bother any more.
Because that's his job, as you said earlier if someone offers you more money for the same job of course you'd go for it, if i took the money and gave up because it got a bit hard i'm sure i'd be shown the door.
I do not hold with this argument that any rider can change their style fundamentally, adapt to the bike, the conditions and the tyres yes, but fundamental change doesn't happen, or at least very very rarely.
They have to change, Marquez has come along and pushed everything forwards, if the established riders don't change then they'll be left behind as the moto2/3 riders turn up.
As you so aptly describe Rossi and Lorenzo have, what have they changed? Lorenzo struggles with being on the edge of the tyre longer than others, but he hasn't changed that, it's an issue he has to manage with tyre choice and set up. What is Rossi doing so differently than before? Please enlighten me.
You look at Lorenzo now and his style is totally different to previous years, he now gets his elbow down the same as marquez something he's been beavering away at as the season has progressed.
Now you can disagree with me it's fine, however i'm basing my opinion on still photos i've taken of them both at various corners around silverstone over the past gp's and now lorenzo is taking the same lines as marquez not the more knee down upright style he was taking the same corners in 2012,2013.
Now get on and start the bsb thread.
You don't have to agree with me , it's fine we can both have opposite views, i'm sure people who's job is racing a motorcycle couldn't give a flying f
k what a postie or someone who may of raced in some small race series.He changed his style on the Yamaha, he changed his style to suit the new tank on it, the new brakes etc etc
Did he not get the new tank try it for a few races then return to the original tank?
What he has said I believe is that he did adopt a different style and it didn't work, add in mech failures, broken promises, injuries, broken relationships etc ... Why bother any more.
Because that's his job, as you said earlier if someone offers you more money for the same job of course you'd go for it, if i took the money and gave up because it got a bit hard i'm sure i'd be shown the door.
I do not hold with this argument that any rider can change their style fundamentally, adapt to the bike, the conditions and the tyres yes, but fundamental change doesn't happen, or at least very very rarely.
They have to change, Marquez has come along and pushed everything forwards, if the established riders don't change then they'll be left behind as the moto2/3 riders turn up.
As you so aptly describe Rossi and Lorenzo have, what have they changed? Lorenzo struggles with being on the edge of the tyre longer than others, but he hasn't changed that, it's an issue he has to manage with tyre choice and set up. What is Rossi doing so differently than before? Please enlighten me.
You look at Lorenzo now and his style is totally different to previous years, he now gets his elbow down the same as marquez something he's been beavering away at as the season has progressed.
Now you can disagree with me it's fine, however i'm basing my opinion on still photos i've taken of them both at various corners around silverstone over the past gp's and now lorenzo is taking the same lines as marquez not the more knee down upright style he was taking the same corners in 2012,2013.
Now get on and start the bsb thread.
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