Moto gp Silverstone -- spoilers--
Discussion
bass gt3 said:
Lincsblokey said:
As for Cal, lets not forget he wasnt getting the development parts BEFORE he signed for LCR, ./quote]
The question is what caused the relationship to turn sobad so quickly?? It seems that eachparty may have got off on the wrong foot and never recovered...
Slagging off your team or bosses is only ever going to end up one way. Trying to publically humiliate someone or cajole them into a course of action by trying to create a groundswell of public and peer opinion will never work. Usually has quite the opposite effect in truth.
As said, Cal needs to set his t
tter account,Facebook and Instagram shyte to oneside, say nothing to reporters if there's nothing good to say and let his riding do the talking. LCR really is the end of the line for him.
Quoting Nightmare!! The question is what caused the relationship to turn sobad so quickly?? It seems that eachparty may have got off on the wrong foot and never recovered...
Lincsblokey said:
with regards to his LCR deal, im keeping quietly confident he will shut the doubters up, you dont lose pace overnight, nor do you get a HRC supported ride of your crap, ...
Agreed, lets hope he shuts the doubters up........Lincsblokey said:
at the end of the day Cal has ALWAYS been vocal since his R6 cup days, ...
And lets hope Cal learns when to shut up. just because he was vocal in the R6 Championship isn't reason to still behave in such a manner. In the intervening years you'd hope people learn a level of maturity and professionalism that they didn't have in their formative years. Slagging off your team or bosses is only ever going to end up one way. Trying to publically humiliate someone or cajole them into a course of action by trying to create a groundswell of public and peer opinion will never work. Usually has quite the opposite effect in truth.
As said, Cal needs to set his t
tter account,Facebook and Instagram shyte to oneside, say nothing to reporters if there's nothing good to say and let his riding do the talking. LCR really is the end of the line for him.
Some riders have always been, and always will be, vocal, Some with more reason to be than others, I agree with one thing, I think Cal expected more of Gigi & Audi by now, yes the bike has 'progressed' but with the softer tyres & extra fuel, and with the new parts delivered this weekend it seems it can be somewhere near a podium at a circuit it can stretch its legs at, the early failures on the technical side of the ducati team which lead to his injuries basically set Cal & Ducati on a course where neither trusted the other and now both parties cant wait for the season to end.
And as others have pointed out, Cal is still the most succesful Satellite rider of the past few years, alongside Dovi, who lets not forget had a habit of getting those new parts before cal at T3 too... (brakes anyone, maybe even a factory tank?)
As you say, LCR is probably his last chance, but if he rides like he did on the T3 bike he will bounce on the podium a few more times next year.
And lets just point out, Smith, Redding, they havent actually won a championship yet, Cal's a world champion and has been on the podium at the highest level.
Lincsblokey said:
Quoting Nightmare!!
Some riders have always been, and always will be, vocal, Some with more reason to be than others, I agree with one thing, I think Cal expected more of Gigi & Audi by now, yes the bike has 'progressed' but with the softer tyres & extra fuel, and with the new parts delivered this weekend it seems it can be somewhere near a podium at a circuit it can stretch its legs at, the early failures on the technical side of the ducati team which lead to his injuries basically set Cal & Ducati on a course where neither trusted the other and now both parties cant wait for the season to end.
And as others have pointed out, Cal is still the most succesful Satellite rider of the past few years, alongside Dovi, who lets not forget had a habit of getting those new parts before cal at T3 too... (brakes anyone, maybe even a factory tank?)
As you say, LCR is probably his last chance, but if he rides like he did on the T3 bike he will bounce on the podium a few more times next year.
And lets just point out, Smith, Redding, they havent actually won a championship yet, Cal's a world champion and has been on the podium at the highest level.
hahaha, you miss a bracket and you're damned for eternity!! Some riders have always been, and always will be, vocal, Some with more reason to be than others, I agree with one thing, I think Cal expected more of Gigi & Audi by now, yes the bike has 'progressed' but with the softer tyres & extra fuel, and with the new parts delivered this weekend it seems it can be somewhere near a podium at a circuit it can stretch its legs at, the early failures on the technical side of the ducati team which lead to his injuries basically set Cal & Ducati on a course where neither trusted the other and now both parties cant wait for the season to end.
And as others have pointed out, Cal is still the most succesful Satellite rider of the past few years, alongside Dovi, who lets not forget had a habit of getting those new parts before cal at T3 too... (brakes anyone, maybe even a factory tank?)
As you say, LCR is probably his last chance, but if he rides like he did on the T3 bike he will bounce on the podium a few more times next year.
And lets just point out, Smith, Redding, they havent actually won a championship yet, Cal's a world champion and has been on the podium at the highest level.
Yip, something definately went awry between the parties.
But here's a queation....
Could Ducati be using the Open Rules to 'Springboard/Accelerate' their development program?? Ithink it's fair to say that with their previous intransigence they've fallen quite a waybehind the pack theyusually expect to mingle amongst. Couldthisbe a smart way of playing catchup while maintaining a level competitivness within the stated rules and then bounce back into the 'Factory' class once they feelthey've closed the gap??
It seems with the departure of Rossi somethinghad togive as the factory seemed to be heading in completely the wrong direction, and given the pace of progress, maybe this is a planned recovery stategy? As a brand, Ducati can't affort tobe racing the privateer bikes so something radical needed doing.
And for the record,i have never questioned Cals ability orrecord,just maybe the wisdom of some of his comments.....
I think most Brit's love a fighter, they don't have to be winning just need to be fighting and trying and at the moment cal seem's to be on cruise control.
Not that i blame him , why risk injury when next years going to be THE year your competative , whereas redding constantly gets his bike into places it shouldn't be and smith is constantly pushes until he goes to far and crashes.
Not that i blame him , why risk injury when next years going to be THE year your competative , whereas redding constantly gets his bike into places it shouldn't be and smith is constantly pushes until he goes to far and crashes.
graphene said:
Cal was talking to Ducati in 2012 when he likely already had the Tech3 offer available to take for 2013. Essentially, Ducati chose Dovi over him, otherwise he would have gone at that time. From Ducati's point of view, that decision has been proven correct.
Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
Cals first year was spent learning the bike etc on an M1 with much less factory support than Pol & Bradley Currently enjoy, Marquez, Stoner, Rossi and many others have all said Cal is a regular top 5 contender on a proper bike (rossi actually used those words this weekend) Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
Ill stake a crisp 50 note on the fact that cal shuts his doubters up next year, and all of a sudden everyone will be crutchlow fans stating how 'they knew he would be a success from the start, never doubted him'
Lincsblokey said:
graphene said:
Cal was talking to Ducati in 2012 when he likely already had the Tech3 offer available to take for 2013. Essentially, Ducati chose Dovi over him, otherwise he would have gone at that time. From Ducati's point of view, that decision has been proven correct.
Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
Ill stake a crisp 50 note Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
The only crisps up there are Walkers
graphene said:
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
He pulled in front of the Luffield stand yesterday , got off the Duc and pretended to kick it over , much to the delight of his supporters there.
I couldn't help but think he should stay quiet, as his team mate ran at the front all afternoon in competition for a podium place.
graphene said:
Lincsblokey said:
Cals first year was spent learning the bike etc on an M1 with much less factory support than Pol & Bradley Currently enjoy, Marquez, Stoner, Rossi and many others have all said Cal is a regular top 5 contender on a proper bike (rossi actually used those words this weekend)
Ill stake a crisp 50 note on the fact that cal shuts his doubters up next year, and all of a sudden everyone will be crutchlow fans stating how 'they knew he would be a success from the start, never doubted him'
You also said he would be beating Dovi this season.Ill stake a crisp 50 note on the fact that cal shuts his doubters up next year, and all of a sudden everyone will be crutchlow fans stating how 'they knew he would be a success from the start, never doubted him'
No one, not even the most blind hater could say that his first 6 races were anything but one big f
k up by ducati, im not so sure any rider would even bother trying after that, let alone the dovi & iannone situation...mitzy said:
Lincsblokey said:
graphene said:
Cal was talking to Ducati in 2012 when he likely already had the Tech3 offer available to take for 2013. Essentially, Ducati chose Dovi over him, otherwise he would have gone at that time. From Ducati's point of view, that decision has been proven correct.
Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
Ill stake a crisp 50 note Also, if we want to be objective: It took Cal nearly 30 races to get his first podium, and his two 2nd places were in races where significant riders were either absent (Sascherring) or down the field due to unusual conditions (LeMans). There is no argument that he has (or had) the pace on an M1: able to qualify highly and race at the front. But, can he do it consistently without crashing?
Personally, I would like to see him speak as though English is his first language, and to stop sticking that (probably empty) munster energy bottle in his mouth every interview. :P
The only crisps up there are Walkers
Edited by Lincsblokey on Monday 1st September 14:17
graphene said:
egor110 said:
Regarding cals riding style perhaps he just refuses to change his riding style to suit the bike.
Cal has said in recent interviews that he has struggled to adapt his style, and that he reverts to his normal (M1) style when he is struggling. This means he is not exploiting the speed.I hope he gets it together before the end of the season because everyone wants to see him going in to 2015 feeling (more) condident, whatever the team situation. However, it is possible that if he has struggled with adapting to the Ducati (and still has so many undiagnosed problems with the bike), then he may struggle with the Honda, too.
Thing is rossi decided he needed to re learn his riding style post 13 season so over the winter he beavered away to learn to get his elbow down, lorenzo really impressed me how much he gets his elbow down, obviously he's got his head down and worked at changing his riding style.
Not cal though , cal rides cal's way and if it doesn't work the bikes s
t, lets hope the lcr suits cal's style because the excuses are wearing thin.Edited by egor110 on Monday 1st September 14:08
Lincsblokey said:
Ill stake a crisp 50 note on the fact that cal shuts his doubters up next year, and all of a sudden everyone will be crutchlow fans stating how 'they knew he would be a success from the start, never doubted him'
I'm tempted to take that bet ....The reasons why ....
The doubters aren't going to be swayed by a couple of good results, they want podiums and wins - which no satellite riders look like getting and I don't believe Crutchlow will be doing it in his first year on the Honda.
None of us will ever know the true spec of that bike and if you think Honda will sit idly by and let a satellite rider take podiums off the factory team, you don't know anything about MGP or Honda's behavior in it - general comment, not directed at any individual on here.
There are plenty of people discussing his need but failure to change riding style, can he adapt that quickly to the Honda after a year of stagnating on the Ducati.
Crutchlow doesn't look likely to take his long term crew chief with him, could be good, could be bad. Normally it's a development cycle and therefore more time lost in translating what Crutchlow is saying into what he needs.
Do we know if Ducati will release him from his contract in time for the Valencia test ? If not, more time lost.
What measure are we using to prove his doubters wrong, one podium, better than his T3 final year, top satellite bike?
Lorenzo has changed his style, but he spends too much time on the edge of the tyre, hence why he has edge grip issues, you can change so much, but you're still stuck with your inherent speed, style, character as a rider, call it what you like. Rossi has changed his, but he's not winning and neither is Lorenzo.
I am a big Crutchlow fan, always have been and continue to be so. I defended his move to Ducati, I think the front guys genuinely believe he has real talent, but I don't forecast some sort of miracle turn around and the front guys aren't going to be quaking in their race boots about it either.
The doubters are looking for evidence that they were always right that he wasn't any good and unless his performances are outstanding we're fighting a losing battle against the wave of negativity towards him currently.
Rawwr said:
All he has to do on the LCR is score more points than Bradl, surely?
Bradl's hardly set the world alight though has he, otherwise he'd still be on that bike, so I don't see that beating Bradl's tally is much of a benchmark.Like one or two others, I think he's going to have to smash Bradl's tally and/or be very, very close to getting on the podium on something like a regular basis to have any chance of staying on a competitive bike.
At the end of the day there are currently only 6 works bikes out there, 4 if you discount Ducati as there's no way they'll ever have him back, and of the other 4, none of them are being ridden by guys Cal can beat on a regular basis and therefore replace, so next year is likely to be as good as it ever gets for him again in Grand Prix racing.
Centurion07 said:
Rawwr said:
All he has to do on the LCR is score more points than Bradl, surely?
Bradl's hardly set the world alight though has he, otherwise he'd still be on that bike, so I don't see that beating Bradl's tally is much of a benchmark.Like one or two others, I think he's going to have to smash Bradl's tally and/or be very, very close to getting on the podium on something like a regular basis to have any chance of staying on a competitive bike.
At the end of the day there are currently only 6 works bikes out there, 4 if you discount Ducati as there's no way they'll ever have him back, and of the other 4, none of them are being ridden by guys Cal can beat on a regular basis and therefore replace, so next year is likely to be as good as it ever gets for him again in Grand Prix racing.
graphene said:
egor110 said:
Cal is also going to have to beat redding on the same bike, at present cal on a factory bike can't beat redding.
Yeah, but just saying "factory" bike doesn't mean much. Besides, he has finished ahead of Redding in numerous races, so your statement is factually inaccurate, too. macdeb said:
For my tupenth, I reckon Redding is the real deal. He has the killer instinct that sadly Smith lacks. He is also showing a mature attitude, he's good with the press, and is doing a superb job on the equipment he has. If only I had the money, I'd back him over any of the others.
Completely agree with this, sadly he may be a little too large if that matters...which I assume it does. Albeit no fault of his own.egor110 said:
Obviously factory bike does mean a lot to Cal, think back to the end of 2013 when only a factory seat would do,none of this satellite machinery with there feeble pay would do for Cal factory was his only wish.
You really do have a downer on the only Brit to have been successful in MGP for years don't you.As cal said at the time, when was the last time you saw a satellite bike win a race? 2006, Tiger Toni and none since.
Riding a hand me down bike in MGP where the rules keep changing is not like it was at the end of the 500's era when satellite bikes regularly made wins. The development curve is different and the changing rules don't help the situation.
Yes he's going to earn more money, but inn a career than can be ended very quickly I don't begrudge any rider the chance.
Your argument seems to be he should earn less for his family and his future and be happy getting the odd result rather than trying to secure his financial future and see if the only factory seat available to him could lead to more results.
But no, much easier to say he moved for the money only.
If I offered you the chance to do whatever job you do now, same risks, same hours, same description, but for 5 times the salary. What would you say? No
I understand Cal's desire to have a factory bike but did he think he could do what Rossi couldnt? I'm sure he would have known that too and expected a better bike. So ducati must have really just paid lip servive to improving the bike. If he has managed to be brought out of his contract and get on an HRC bike next year has done very well.
People do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
People do come back from Ducati. Look at Rossi and Stoner...
Iannone has said he has to trail brake the fron for longer. Dovi is riding well, and was chuffed to be just 10 secs off the lead but must remember they have more fuel (more power) and softer tyres. Put them on normal rules and they would be mixing it with Scott Redding. That isnt progress.
graphene said:
When was the last time a Ducati won a race? 2010-PI-Stoner. Before Stoner: 2007-Montegi-Capirossi (wet-dry race one-off - http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race...
The leading to better results is only likely if there is a significant change at Ducati. Considering they have had two experienced and successful riders --in Hayden and Rossi-- try already, why would Cal think he could do any better in results - especially when he wanted to move back in 2012?
I don't think it is a downer to plainly state he went from a quality bike (not what I would consider a handmedown) to one which is not competitive (not without the significant rules changes, anyway). He appears to have done it for money and the opportunity to step to another team. Whether that's considered 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't really matter to me - I can't the seem the problem with it. What we know is that he is subsequently complaining, almost immediately so, about the situation he sought for himself since at least 2012 (when Ducati chose Dovi over him), a time when the Ducati was even less competitive than it is now. There have been technical issues, this season, but they only explain so much of what has gone on. Consequently, it appears possible that he has played Ducati for exactly this situation.
I don't know his financial circumstanes but I suspect he must be doing pretty well living tax-light, with personal sponsorship and appearance fees alone coming in, so appeals to financial insecurity are a stretch. But, then again, I don't begrudge him making that calculation either.
I will continue to cheer him on, hope to see him remain on the grid, enjoy his humour in interviews, and look forward to seeing him coming past other riders with world championship titles to their name. That doesn't mean you have to swallow every overtly postive assertion, and the same goes for the negative opinions, too.
Factory bikes usually come with factory support, this is where Ducati have fallen over during and since Stoners era and never come back. There's a good piece somewhere, I think by Matt Oxley perhaps in Motorsport magazine describing how when challenged as to why their bike had 7, 8, 9 and 10mm bolts, the engineers response was that's how it's engineered. Yamaha or Honda would have one size, no need for messing, guessing what's needed, less time to change parts and less fuss, tools, confusion etc ...The leading to better results is only likely if there is a significant change at Ducati. Considering they have had two experienced and successful riders --in Hayden and Rossi-- try already, why would Cal think he could do any better in results - especially when he wanted to move back in 2012?
I don't think it is a downer to plainly state he went from a quality bike (not what I would consider a handmedown) to one which is not competitive (not without the significant rules changes, anyway). He appears to have done it for money and the opportunity to step to another team. Whether that's considered 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't really matter to me - I can't the seem the problem with it. What we know is that he is subsequently complaining, almost immediately so, about the situation he sought for himself since at least 2012 (when Ducati chose Dovi over him), a time when the Ducati was even less competitive than it is now. There have been technical issues, this season, but they only explain so much of what has gone on. Consequently, it appears possible that he has played Ducati for exactly this situation.
I don't know his financial circumstanes but I suspect he must be doing pretty well living tax-light, with personal sponsorship and appearance fees alone coming in, so appeals to financial insecurity are a stretch. But, then again, I don't begrudge him making that calculation either.
I will continue to cheer him on, hope to see him remain on the grid, enjoy his humour in interviews, and look forward to seeing him coming past other riders with world championship titles to their name. That doesn't mean you have to swallow every overtly postive assertion, and the same goes for the negative opinions, too.
This is before you get to the differences in the sheer number of development parts someone like Pedrosa and Marquez will get through even when they're winning, Ducati just haven't done this for Cal and I suspect the appointment of Gigi came with promises of addressing these things and actually what came was a load of stalling, staff reorganization and delays.
We'll never know what Cal was promised, but Ducati targeted him. Everyone's point of view seems to be Cal picked what he wanted, but it takes two to make a contract and I suspect, but I can't evidence that he has been let down from early on. Add in the mechanical failures, chronic understeer, lack of feedback being taken on board and little changes being made who wouldn't get frustrated.
As for earnings, front runners in WSB earn an alright salary, but only a handful, many of the MGP earn pennies for what they do. Add to that their career is how long, at the top level earning, not the full 20yrs. How much personal and family investment does it take and then begrudge them earning what they do. Cal's package is peanuts compared to others and it's been for 1yr.
If it was all about the money, why wouldn't he stay at Ducati and keep coining it in? LCR isn't going to be paying anywhere what a factory ride does. He's going for a more competitive bike, which kind of undercuts the lame argument that he went solely for the money.
Hand me down may not be the best description, but as that year/model/specification has been used, then improved and then given onto the satellite teams, it's pretty accurate. The satellite bikes are not the same as the bikes under Marquez et al.
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