Why do modern motorbikes not have abs
Discussion
Tall_Paul said:
Or does it just detect the sudden slowing of the wheel when it's about to lock up?
This.Just before a wheel locks the deceleration spikes (in any conditions) which is detected as being abnormal by the ABS computer. Pressure is then released until normal deceleration is seen. All this happens multiple of times a second.
trickywoo said:
This.
Just before a wheel locks the deceleration spikes (in any conditions) which is detected as being abnormal by the ABS computer. Pressure is then released until normal deceleration is seen. All this happens multiple of times a second.
Gotcha Just before a wheel locks the deceleration spikes (in any conditions) which is detected as being abnormal by the ABS computer. Pressure is then released until normal deceleration is seen. All this happens multiple of times a second.
I suppose the wheel speed thing wouldn't work due to different wheel/tyre sizes, and even different circumfrences when cornering.Back to the main topic, bikes are well behind cars in technological terms, I mean bikes only really got fuel injection in numbers 10 years ago, cars have had that since the mid-nineties? Same with ABS, traction control and so-on. If bikes were on the same level we would be seeing loads of bikes with 600cc spuercharged engines with 180bhp and returning 50+ mpg, daylight running LED lights on every new bike, not just a few Ducatis, cruise control, and so on.
I've got two bikes at present.. Sports bike without and a commuter with ABS.
Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
Harry H said:
I've got two bikes at present.. Sports bike without and a commuter with ABS.
Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
My S2 elise doesn't have a servo on the brakes or abs it's a lot easier to lock up the brakes than on the bike. Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
Harry H said:
I've got two bikes at present.. Sports bike without and a commuter with ABS.
Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
You honestly explore the limits of grip in the road?! Rather it wasn't on the sports bike. I ride it for fun and I'm focused when I do. I also enjoy exploring the limits of grip. When the brain is working a front lock up doesn't bother me it's all part of the fun.
On the commuter I'm happy to have it. Damp, greasy roads, filtering and often my thoughts are miles away on the daily drudge. It's kept me upright on a couple of occasions.
I'm lucky I also have two cars. One an S1 Elise with no aids (apart from a servo on the brakes) whatsoever and a luxo barge with enough electronics to power a moon mission. They both get used for similar excursions to the bikes.
And S1 Elise's don't have servos
Found this website about effectiveness of ABS;
http://www.spokes.com.au/riding-safety/abs
Cites some papers and pretty easy to read so a good one.
http://www.spokes.com.au/riding-safety/abs
Cites some papers and pretty easy to read so a good one.
Have no interest in abs and would never bother with it and I ride all year round and have done so for the last 8 years.I have ridden bikes with abs and found it fine just something I would not be fussed over.What does annoy me is new bikers who wont ride with out it.Think of all the bikes they will never get to enjoy,bikers are gone too soft imho.
It's a shame it's becoming mandatory, all part of society's infantilisation I suppose. I've got nothing against ABS, it's very effective but as adults we should have the choice as to whether or not we want it. The ABS modules are very expensive when they break (they do break) and they make home servicing more difficult. I'd hate for bikes to become as much of a pain to look after as modern cars.
I'm not sure I understand why ABS detracts from the learning experience?
My understanding was it will only prevent the wheel locking up beyond what you can get "threshold braking", at which point you'd have binned the bike anyway, perhaps even fatally.
Seems an unnecessarily steep learning curve.
My understanding was it will only prevent the wheel locking up beyond what you can get "threshold braking", at which point you'd have binned the bike anyway, perhaps even fatally.
Seems an unnecessarily steep learning curve.
srob said:
ABS isnt new technology. I have it on my 1920s bikes. In fact, the ABS is so efficient you can pull the front brake on fully and still push the bike!
I remember that sensation on my old WD-M20. Did manage to get the rear to lock up a few times riding it over a wet field, but that was about it
trickywoo said:
Mad Jock said:
As ABS basically works by comparing front wheel and rear wheel speeds, if it detects that the front is turning slower than the rear, or vice versa, it releases the brake pressure on the slower wheel, within limits, allowing it to turn again. As a locked tyre has lost it's grip, releasing the brake allows the tyre to grip again, and the brakes are re-applied.
Some ABS systems won't work below a certain speed, around 15 to 20 mph.
Traction control works in the same way, except the other way round. It detects if the rear is spinning faster than the front, and compensates by interrupting the ignition.
If, in your case, the rear of your bike is rising, the bike is effectively rotating around your front tyre, so long as it still has grip. Lose that grip, and therefore the retardation, and the bike will more than likely drop it's rear (ooh er) back on the deck. Whether ABS would alone prevent a stoppie, I have no idea. I really don't want to test that.
The sensors that activate anti-wheelie I suppose could work with the brakes/ABS to act as anti-stoppie.
Sorry but none of that is true.Some ABS systems won't work below a certain speed, around 15 to 20 mph.
Traction control works in the same way, except the other way round. It detects if the rear is spinning faster than the front, and compensates by interrupting the ignition.
If, in your case, the rear of your bike is rising, the bike is effectively rotating around your front tyre, so long as it still has grip. Lose that grip, and therefore the retardation, and the bike will more than likely drop it's rear (ooh er) back on the deck. Whether ABS would alone prevent a stoppie, I have no idea. I really don't want to test that.
The sensors that activate anti-wheelie I suppose could work with the brakes/ABS to act as anti-stoppie.
ABS works by detecting the rate of deceleration on a wheel not differences front to rear.
I may be out of date regarding comparing wheel speeds, but that used to be the case when I went through university. (late '70's)
Certainly all of the bikes I have seen with ABS have an ABS ring and sensor on the front brake, and another on the rear. These are slotted rings with a sensor that serves no other function than measuring wheel speed. It may well be linked to an accelerometer as well, but it has to use comparative data to decide if something is locking up. It has to know, basically, that the bike is travelling faster than the wheel should be turning. A change in deceleration alone isn't sufficient.
I think.............but I could be wrong.
Mad Jock said:
trickywoo said:
Mad Jock said:
As ABS basically works by comparing front wheel and rear wheel speeds, if it detects that the front is turning slower than the rear, or vice versa, it releases the brake pressure on the slower wheel, within limits, allowing it to turn again. As a locked tyre has lost it's grip, releasing the brake allows the tyre to grip again, and the brakes are re-applied.
Some ABS systems won't work below a certain speed, around 15 to 20 mph.
Traction control works in the same way, except the other way round. It detects if the rear is spinning faster than the front, and compensates by interrupting the ignition.
If, in your case, the rear of your bike is rising, the bike is effectively rotating around your front tyre, so long as it still has grip. Lose that grip, and therefore the retardation, and the bike will more than likely drop it's rear (ooh er) back on the deck. Whether ABS would alone prevent a stoppie, I have no idea. I really don't want to test that.
The sensors that activate anti-wheelie I suppose could work with the brakes/ABS to act as anti-stoppie.
Sorry but none of that is true.Some ABS systems won't work below a certain speed, around 15 to 20 mph.
Traction control works in the same way, except the other way round. It detects if the rear is spinning faster than the front, and compensates by interrupting the ignition.
If, in your case, the rear of your bike is rising, the bike is effectively rotating around your front tyre, so long as it still has grip. Lose that grip, and therefore the retardation, and the bike will more than likely drop it's rear (ooh er) back on the deck. Whether ABS would alone prevent a stoppie, I have no idea. I really don't want to test that.
The sensors that activate anti-wheelie I suppose could work with the brakes/ABS to act as anti-stoppie.
ABS works by detecting the rate of deceleration on a wheel not differences front to rear.
I may be out of date regarding comparing wheel speeds, but that used to be the case when I went through university. (late '70's)
Certainly all of the bikes I have seen with ABS have an ABS ring and sensor on the front brake, and another on the rear. These are slotted rings with a sensor that serves no other function than measuring wheel speed. It may well be linked to an accelerometer as well, but it has to use comparative data to decide if something is locking up. It has to know, basically, that the bike is travelling faster than the wheel should be turning. A change in deceleration alone isn't sufficient.
I think.............but I could be wrong.
Additional information from the other wheel sensor will help the control unit decide that if it’s the wheel that is decelerating too quickly or if the whole bike is simply decelerating quickly.
This is why people claim they can out brake ABS. If the surface is dry and really grippy then it is possible to brake hard enough that the rate of wheel deceleration is outside the ABS control units map of "acceptable" even though the wheel hasn’t actually locked. An ABS equipped bike, thinking there's a lock up, will release the brake pressure where a rider not using ABS in the same situation will maintain the brake pressure and thus stop shorter. This only works on good quality, smooth, dry, grippy surfaces while using good quality sticky tyres and is being operated by a rider who can "feel" his brakes to the absolute limit without going too far. That would be an "every ride" situation for all of us then!
slevin911 said:
bikers are gone too soft imho.
That's rich from someone who's only been riding 8 years, or do you mean 80 and your still riding about on a matchelss or something equally as obselete?I really dont get this whole "I've never needed it before so I dont need it now I'm billy big b
ks me". We all benefit from the advances in technology in our motorcycles, from improved metallurgy, to better tyres, better brake pads, beet fuels, better oils. It's not just things like fuel injection removing the need to twiddle carbs and fk about with a choke on a cold morning (oh ye gods, allow thine engine to splutter into life this torrid cold morn!), its lots of things. ABS, traction control, they are fantastic advances and I would love to have a bike with at least ABS. Can anyone here be so sure of their abilities that if on a damp day in december a vehicle pulled out on them and they did an emergency stop on a greasy surface they would avoid a lock up or save a lockup?
I've held a full lisence for 8 years, and before that rode regularly on a CBT. I have saved a front wheel lock ONCE and that was pratting around in a field on damp grass.
thatdude said:
slevin911 said:
bikers are gone too soft imho.
That's rich from someone who's only been riding 8 years, or do you mean 80 and your still riding about on a matchelss or something equally as obselete?I really dont get this whole "I've never needed it before so I dont need it now I'm billy big b
ks me". We all benefit from the advances in technology in our motorcycles, from improved metallurgy, to better tyres, better brake pads, beet fuels, better oils. It's not just things like fuel injection removing the need to twiddle carbs and fk about with a choke on a cold morning (oh ye gods, allow thine engine to splutter into life this torrid cold morn!), its lots of things. ABS, traction control, they are fantastic advances and I would love to have a bike with at least ABS. Can anyone here be so sure of their abilities that if on a damp day in december a vehicle pulled out on them and they did an emergency stop on a greasy surface they would avoid a lock up or save a lockup?
I've held a full lisence for 8 years, and before that rode regularly on a CBT. I have saved a front wheel lock ONCE and that was pratting around in a field on damp grass.
Not all of us want that and we shouldn't be forced into it by those that would 'know better'.
thatdude said:
That's rich from someone who's only been riding 8 years, or do you mean 80 and your still riding about on a matchelss or something equally as obselete?
I really dont get this whole "I've never needed it before so I dont need it now I'm billy big bks me". We all benefit from the advances in technology in our motorcycles, from improved metallurgy, to better tyres, better brake pads, beet fuels, better oils. It's not just things like fuel injection removing the need to twiddle carbs and fk about with a choke on a cold morning (oh ye gods, allow thine engine to splutter into life this torrid cold morn!), its lots of things.
ABS, traction control, they are fantastic advances and I would love to have a bike with at least ABS. Can anyone here be so sure of their abilities that if on a damp day in december a vehicle pulled out on them and they did an emergency stop on a greasy surface they would avoid a lock up or save a lockup?
I've held a full lisence for 8 years, and before that rode regularly on a CBT. I have saved a front wheel lock ONCE and that was pratting around in a field on damp grass.
I'm guessing that most of the people who don't need/want ABS don't regularly ride at 7am on a January morning when it's barely above freezing and pissing it down, dodging half awake drivers and pedestrians I really dont get this whole "I've never needed it before so I dont need it now I'm billy big b
ks me". We all benefit from the advances in technology in our motorcycles, from improved metallurgy, to better tyres, better brake pads, beet fuels, better oils. It's not just things like fuel injection removing the need to twiddle carbs and fk about with a choke on a cold morning (oh ye gods, allow thine engine to splutter into life this torrid cold morn!), its lots of things. ABS, traction control, they are fantastic advances and I would love to have a bike with at least ABS. Can anyone here be so sure of their abilities that if on a damp day in december a vehicle pulled out on them and they did an emergency stop on a greasy surface they would avoid a lock up or save a lockup?
I've held a full lisence for 8 years, and before that rode regularly on a CBT. I have saved a front wheel lock ONCE and that was pratting around in a field on damp grass.
Like I said before, weekend warriors/fair weather riders most probably don't need and/or want ABS. For us all weather/all year bikers, it might just be a life-saving choice. You'll never know you need ABS until you really need it. There's 2 completely different mindsets when it comes to riding, and both have very different needs.
supersingle said:
Good for you. If you want a bike with all the latest technology, go and buy one.
Not all of us want that and we shouldn't be forced into it by those that would 'know better'.
You, and others, are going to find it difficult to find a set of cross-plys for your R1's and gsxr's because you shun modern tech where you canNot all of us want that and we shouldn't be forced into it by those that would 'know better'.
Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff