And in a little more news for you...

And in a little more news for you...

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Discussion

Andy XRV

Original Poster:

3,837 posts

179 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Could someone explain why this is a good thing?

You may have read or heard in the news, that MAG’s Director of Communications and Public Affairs, Lembit Öpik was on the campaign trail during the Rochester and Strood by-election. Helping independent candidate Charlotte Rose’s campaign wasn’t the only reason he was there. He was also there to collect on a promise made by Nigel Farage MEP, the leader of the UK Independence Party, to join MAG the next time they met. While you might not agree with UKIP’s policies, Nigel Farage has kept his promise.

He is the first of the leaders of the various political parties to join. This now sets a precedent for the other party leaders that they will not be able to refuse in fear of Farage leading the way. Lembit Öpik said about Nigel Farage joining MAG: "You don’t have to be a UKIP voter to recognise the significance of a man like Farage joining MAG’s ranks. Other party leaders have been approached, but Nigel has actually done something about it. With 1.5 million active riders, and another 4 million fully qualified motorcycle licence holders in the UK, there are a huge number of electors who care about riders’ rights. So often, they’ve been frustrated by the lack of political respect and attention given to users of powered two wheelers, despite the obvious benefits in terms of reduced pollution, reduced cost and reduced congestion compared to a car.

More forward-looking MPs already get it, which is why we have so many friends in Parliament. "What do I say to those who have objections to UKIP’s stance on the European Union? It’s simple: members are perfectly entitled to hold any political views they like. But my duty is to find allies, and to nurture relationships with people who matter in the national and international political world. Nigel Farage and his growing movement have much potential to influence policy-shaping decisions that matter to us in the run up to the British General Election and beyond. It would be a utterly foolish to miss out on the golden opportunity his positivity towards us presents.”This marks a massive change in MAG’s political fortunes since the appointment of Lembit Öpik a year ago (his appointment was announced at last year’s Motorcycle Live). MAG still remains politically neutral and will not align to any political party. The MPs (and now one of the MEPs for the South East of England) cover a wide political spectrum, including the Scottish National Party. We are already close to getting the other parties on board, including the Greens, after the success of Brighton MAG's bus lane campaign.

MAG is seen as the riders’ voice in the heart of power

black-k1

11,889 posts

228 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Andy XRV said:
Could someone explain why this is a good thing?

You may have read or heard in the news, that MAG’s Director of Communications and Public Affairs, Lembit Öpik was on the campaign trail during the Rochester and Strood by-election. Helping independent candidate Charlotte Rose’s campaign wasn’t the only reason he was there. He was also there to collect on a promise made by Nigel Farage MEP, the leader of the UK Independence Party, to join MAG the next time they met. While you might not agree with UKIP’s policies, Nigel Farage has kept his promise.

He is the first of the leaders of the various political parties to join. This now sets a precedent for the other party leaders that they will not be able to refuse in fear of Farage leading the way. Lembit Öpik said about Nigel Farage joining MAG: "You don’t have to be a UKIP voter to recognise the significance of a man like Farage joining MAG’s ranks. Other party leaders have been approached, but Nigel has actually done something about it. With 1.5 million active riders, and another 4 million fully qualified motorcycle licence holders in the UK, there are a huge number of electors who care about riders’ rights. So often, they’ve been frustrated by the lack of political respect and attention given to users of powered two wheelers, despite the obvious benefits in terms of reduced pollution, reduced cost and reduced congestion compared to a car.

More forward-looking MPs already get it, which is why we have so many friends in Parliament. "What do I say to those who have objections to UKIP’s stance on the European Union? It’s simple: members are perfectly entitled to hold any political views they like. But my duty is to find allies, and to nurture relationships with people who matter in the national and international political world. Nigel Farage and his growing movement have much potential to influence policy-shaping decisions that matter to us in the run up to the British General Election and beyond. It would be a utterly foolish to miss out on the golden opportunity his positivity towards us presents.”This marks a massive change in MAG’s political fortunes since the appointment of Lembit Öpik a year ago (his appointment was announced at last year’s Motorcycle Live). MAG still remains politically neutral and will not align to any political party. The MPs (and now one of the MEPs for the South East of England) cover a wide political spectrum, including the Scottish National Party. We are already close to getting the other parties on board, including the Greens, after the success of Brighton MAG's bus lane campaign.

MAG is seen as the riders’ voice in the heart of power
A good thing for who? You? Motorcyclists? Lembit Opik? MAG? Nigel Farage? UKIP?

Lembit Opik’s main statement seems pretty clear as to why he thinks it’s a good thing for MAG than thus, I assume, also thinks it’s a good think for motorcyclist.


Gypsum Fantastic

412 posts

210 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
It's a good thing because evil politicians tend to be petrolheads.

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I always thought MAG were a bunch of daily mail reading aholes. So can't say I'm surprised.

It's also quite a basic error for an organisation like this to take on political affiliations. They've simultaneously lost both credibility and a massive chunk of their demographic.



thatdude

2,654 posts

126 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Surely this will usher in a new age of being jailed indefinitely for not wearing a Sam Brown belt whilst riding a white touring motorcycle with "polite" stickers all over it with high beams on.


I, for one, will rebel against our new motorcycling overlords.






Dog Star

16,079 posts

167 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I like Farage, I'll happily admit to being a "bigot", "racist" and "thick" (standard crap from places like FB) - I will be voting UKIP,

However I really fail to see, despite MAGs rhetoric, what they are trying to achieve here. Is Farage even a motorcyclist?

moanthebairns

17,918 posts

197 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I'll be voting UKIP next election, fk ill even vote Tory if it means those s SNP don't get in again.

black-k1

11,889 posts

228 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Most laws, rules and regulations effecting motorcycles and motorcyclists are made in Europe. Farage is an MEP and thus as some ability to change/influence /oppose such laws, rules and regulations.

As most "rule makers" often have no real knowledge of a subject associated with minority groups, and generally aren’t even willing to listen to organisations lobbying on behalf of minority groups, yet support laws, rules and regulations that can be implemented where there is no real evidential justification. Allying with those willing to listen and engage is something that can bring many benefits.

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
black-k1 said:
Most laws, rules and regulations effecting motorcycles and motorcyclists are made in Europe. Farage is an MEP and thus as some ability to change/influence /oppose such laws, rules and regulations.

As most "rule makers" often have no real knowledge of a subject associated with minority groups, and generally aren’t even willing to listen to organisations lobbying on behalf of minority groups, yet support laws, rules and regulations that can be implemented where there is no real evidential justification. Allying with those willing to listen and engage is something that can bring many benefits.
The point of the EU is continuity in it's member states though. If directives could be overruled by minority groups of individual member countries we would never make any progress in achieving this. I take your point it's not useful in certain countries or circumstances, but you can't win them all. A case for a new law may be very strong in many member states, but not the UK. That does not mean it should not apply.

Individual rights versus social responsibility is always tricky.



black-k1

11,889 posts

228 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
black-k1 said:
Most laws, rules and regulations effecting motorcycles and motorcyclists are made in Europe. Farage is an MEP and thus as some ability to change/influence /oppose such laws, rules and regulations.

As most "rule makers" often have no real knowledge of a subject associated with minority groups, and generally aren’t even willing to listen to organisations lobbying on behalf of minority groups, yet support laws, rules and regulations that can be implemented where there is no real evidential justification. Allying with those willing to listen and engage is something that can bring many benefits.
The point of the EU is continuity in it's member states though. If directives could be overruled by minority groups of individual member countries we would never make any progress in achieving this. I take your point it's not useful in certain countries or circumstances, but you can't win them all. A case for a new law may be very strong in many member states, but not the UK. That does not mean it should not apply.

Individual rights versus social responsibility is always tricky.
Absolutely right but slightly different to minorities courting those in a position to question and challenge directives as they're being made. Having someone who is able to present evidential information before decisions are made may just show (as has happened previously - leg protectors!) that the majority of countries who "thought" they wanted the directive the flaws in their thinking.

mckeann

2,986 posts

228 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
moanthebairns said:
I'll be voting UKIP next election, fk ill even vote Tory if it means those s SNP don't get in again.
I reckon if UKIP get in they will be holding a referendum for independance from us, so be careful wink

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
black-k1 said:
Absolutely right but slightly different to minorities courting those in a position to question and challenge directives as they're being made. Having someone who is able to present evidential information before decisions are made may just show (as has happened previously - leg protectors!) that the majority of countries who "thought" they wanted the directive the flaws in their thinking.
I agree a understanding the material is critical and the EU has dropped the ball on this many times. UKIP however is a guarantee of this flawed understanding. It is indeed a party built on a lack of understanding of what evidence is and conclusions we can sensible draw from it. It does not for example believe in man made global warming in spite of scientific consensus.

I'll take my chances with the inconsistent EU boffins, rather than a UK crackpot.


Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Hooli said:
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.
No, I'm trying to say UKIP lack the intelligence to make their own decisions based on the evidence. That's why they damage the credibility of MAG, and in the bigger picture, the UK.

I can't tell if you're joking because I thought you were a pretty sharp bloke? There's obviously lots of evidence for man made climate change, given it can be verified and contested, it's remarkable no one has done so if it were not true. That's why the scientific community backs it as the most likely cause of the observed rise in temperature, and why any academic or respectable politician believes it.








moanthebairns

17,918 posts

197 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
I have to ask at the risk of sounding incredibly stupid. But wtf is the article about, as I understand it a few people with nil power have joined MAG which is apparently some sort of action group for motorcyclists.

I joined the RSPCA once, didn't mean I was there on the front line cleaning baby seals and birds when the Exxon Valdez spilt its guts.

is it just me or does this mean nothing.

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
Hooli said:
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.
No, I'm trying to say UKIP lack the intelligence to make their own decisions based on the evidence. That's why they damage the credibility of MAG, and in the bigger picture, the UK.

I can't tell if you're joking because I thought you were a pretty sharp bloke? There's obviously lots of evidence for man made climate change, given it can be verified and contested, it's remarkable no one has done so if it were not true. That's why the scientific community backs it as the most likely cause of the observed rise in temperature, and why any academic or respectable politician believes it.
We disagree yet again on this. I don't feel the evidence proves anything except that the computer models say what they want them to say.

moanthebairns

17,918 posts

197 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Hooli said:
Prof Prolapse said:
Hooli said:
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.
No, I'm trying to say UKIP lack the intelligence to make their own decisions based on the evidence. That's why they damage the credibility of MAG, and in the bigger picture, the UK.

I can't tell if you're joking because I thought you were a pretty sharp bloke? There's obviously lots of evidence for man made climate change, given it can be verified and contested, it's remarkable no one has done so if it were not true. That's why the scientific community backs it as the most likely cause of the observed rise in temperature, and why any academic or respectable politician believes it.
We disagree yet again on this. I don't feel the evidence proves anything except that the computer models say what they want them to say.
I used to be a lab tech, give me the results and ill tell you if its ste or not.

moanthebairns

17,918 posts

197 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
graphene said:
moanthebairns said:
Hooli said:
Prof Prolapse said:
Hooli said:
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.
No, I'm trying to say UKIP lack the intelligence to make their own decisions based on the evidence. That's why they damage the credibility of MAG, and in the bigger picture, the UK.

I can't tell if you're joking because I thought you were a pretty sharp bloke? There's obviously lots of evidence for man made climate change, given it can be verified and contested, it's remarkable no one has done so if it were not true. That's why the scientific community backs it as the most likely cause of the observed rise in temperature, and why any academic or respectable politician believes it.
We disagree yet again on this. I don't feel the evidence proves anything except that the computer models say what they want them to say.
I used to be a lab tech, give me the results and ill tell you if its ste or not.
Are you sure the models you have on your computer are able to process the data?
Sorry, its a bit of a in joke on here.

moanthebairns

17,918 posts

197 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
graphene said:
moanthebairns said:
graphene said:
moanthebairns said:
Hooli said:
Prof Prolapse said:
Hooli said:
I think what you're trying to say there is UKIP make their own decisions based upon the evidence rather than jumping on the band wagon. Climate change is a great example, there is zero proof but loads of people who don't understand cause & effect must happen in that order believe in it.

MMCC is just religion for modern doom mongers.
No, I'm trying to say UKIP lack the intelligence to make their own decisions based on the evidence. That's why they damage the credibility of MAG, and in the bigger picture, the UK.

I can't tell if you're joking because I thought you were a pretty sharp bloke? There's obviously lots of evidence for man made climate change, given it can be verified and contested, it's remarkable no one has done so if it were not true. That's why the scientific community backs it as the most likely cause of the observed rise in temperature, and why any academic or respectable politician believes it.
We disagree yet again on this. I don't feel the evidence proves anything except that the computer models say what they want them to say.
I used to be a lab tech, give me the results and ill tell you if its ste or not.
Are you sure the models you have on your computer are able to process the data?
Sorry, its a bit of a in joke on here.
So was I.
woosh

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th November 2014
quotequote all
Hooli said:
We disagree yet again on this. I don't feel the evidence proves anything except that the computer models say what they want them to say.
At least we disagree like men and not children.

That would depend on the models you're referring to. If you contest the fact the world is getting warmer based on a grievance with CRUK, then I would argue you probably don't need to as their data have been duplicated by other other bodies like NASA (IIRC). You also have masses of observational evidence which cannot be faked, no matter how wild the conspiracy theory.

Predictive models however are far more difficult and to a lesser extent I agree with you. They're also addressed in the next IPCC report which is due soon I think. Expect big error bars and the numbers to be misrepresented by the doomsayers, whom I fully acknowledge exist.

I struggle to be emotive about the issue nowadays but I just think it's a shame many people fall at the first hurdle. As regardless of what people think of the teams involved and what holes can be picked, the point is that it is a theory which is the best fit for what we can see. As with anything in science it can be disproven, but no one has succeeded in this yet despite many fierce attempts to do so, including corporations and institutions with almost unlimited funding. A contrast to the IPCC group which is composed mostly of university lecturers with no vested interest I could discern when I last to spoke to one of their senior reviewers.

Personally I'd love them to be wrong. I thought it was all bks until I read the summary for policymakers the IPCC published, then a few other publications forced me to change my mind.

Edited by Prof Prolapse on Tuesday 25th November 14:26