MCN test of the new R1

MCN test of the new R1

Author
Discussion

bass gt3

10,186 posts

232 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
3DP said:
PR36 said:
fergus said:
Agree with all your points above, however, people need to bear in mind the grip levels of the tyres and the laws of physics not being overwritten by an R1 CPU!

.
100pct agree. It makes me cringe when I hear talk about tc and rider aids as though they are some magic bullet, the favourite being 'you can crack the throttle open and the bike will sort it out''. No it won't, the rider aids developed on moto gp bikes cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and yet the riders still manage to launch themselves at the scenery. The system on a road bike will be limited and can't magically make grip where there is none.
Exactly - on the road, they are largely pointless. 99% of people won't have the balls/skill/desire to approach the handling/grip limits in order to lean on electronics in the first place, and those that do, have the skill that they don't need them in the first place.

To me it's now smacking of top trumps, where you are nowhere if you haven't got the latest lean angle sensor tied in to your TC and fly by wire TBs. The reality is that none of this stuff will have any affect on the vast majority's dry road pace, back to back with it all being switched off. I've ridden with guys on S1000RRs on the road and their pace is dictated by their own ability and confidence, not the fact that they can suddenly come out of a 3rd gear sweeper with 45 degrees of lean and the throttle pinned. On the track, yes, but on the road these things are sales brochure gimmicks.

I've actually tried to lean on the TC on my own bike with it turned on to 'track' level (anymore than that and Anti-wheelie ruins feel/fun) and I can't get it to kick in on the road unless I blatantly try to by attempting stunts.
But that's progress Pete.
Truth is bikes performance on the road became irrelevant 10 years ago but what's the option?? Engine, chassis, tyre performance has moved in quantum leaps and the point of the modern systems I think is more of a safety net than a hero button. Whether you have the cahunas to wind a modern 1k up in 3rd gear at 45 degrees isn't really the point. If you get a bit clumsy it's there to stop you seeing your arse, which is a winner in my books. I can feel the rear tyre on the Duc getting very squirrely at full lean, 2nd gear hard drives and according to my logger, the TC is definitely intervening. This is then making me faster as it's keeping me just on the healthy side of awesome! People can witter on about the lack of skill or some such rubbish, but will those same people forego their cell phones, or microwave ovens or modern medicine. Of course not, and if you asked a pro racer if he's rather race sans the safety net, he'd laugh in your face.
So that leaves us with the option that the bikes have non of these systems while the racers are fully kitted out. Now can you hear the uproar because we aren't getting the latest kit.
Truth is having it is a long way from using it. Do you use EVERY function on your modern tablet or cell phone?? Probably not but when did anyone last complain about that??
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.

PR36

341 posts

115 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
bass gt3 said:
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Sorry but this is exactly the dangerous talk I refer to. When you say fact have you actually done this? When you are at full lean by definition the rear tyre has nothing more to give. Opening the throttle to maximum would mean the computer would have to disable the throttle to avoid sending you into orbit. Personally I wouldn't want to try it having visions of Jorge Lorenzo at Laguna seca upside down 20 feet in the air and his Yamaha system was light years ahead of the r1. I can see how tc would help in not spinning the tyre as you lift the bike and apply max throttle on corner exit but I think people need to acknowledge the limits. But as for allowing you to ride like a buffoon and not crash, sorry, no!

3DP

9,912 posts

233 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
bass gt3 said:
3DP said:
PR36 said:
fergus said:
Agree with all your points above, however, people need to bear in mind the grip levels of the tyres and the laws of physics not being overwritten by an R1 CPU!

.
100pct agree. It makes me cringe when I hear talk about tc and rider aids as though they are some magic bullet, the favourite being 'you can crack the throttle open and the bike will sort it out''. No it won't, the rider aids developed on moto gp bikes cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and yet the riders still manage to launch themselves at the scenery. The system on a road bike will be limited and can't magically make grip where there is none.
Exactly - on the road, they are largely pointless. 99% of people won't have the balls/skill/desire to approach the handling/grip limits in order to lean on electronics in the first place, and those that do, have the skill that they don't need them in the first place.

To me it's now smacking of top trumps, where you are nowhere if you haven't got the latest lean angle sensor tied in to your TC and fly by wire TBs. The reality is that none of this stuff will have any affect on the vast majority's dry road pace, back to back with it all being switched off. I've ridden with guys on S1000RRs on the road and their pace is dictated by their own ability and confidence, not the fact that they can suddenly come out of a 3rd gear sweeper with 45 degrees of lean and the throttle pinned. On the track, yes, but on the road these things are sales brochure gimmicks.

I've actually tried to lean on the TC on my own bike with it turned on to 'track' level (anymore than that and Anti-wheelie ruins feel/fun) and I can't get it to kick in on the road unless I blatantly try to by attempting stunts.
But that's progress Pete.
Truth is bikes performance on the road became irrelevant 10 years ago but what's the option?? Engine, chassis, tyre performance has moved in quantum leaps and the point of the modern systems I think is more of a safety net than a hero button. Whether you have the cahunas to wind a modern 1k up in 3rd gear at 45 degrees isn't really the point. If you get a bit clumsy it's there to stop you seeing your arse, which is a winner in my books. I can feel the rear tyre on the Duc getting very squirrely at full lean, 2nd gear hard drives and according to my logger, the TC is definitely intervening. This is then making me faster as it's keeping me just on the healthy side of awesome! People can witter on about the lack of skill or some such rubbish, but will those same people forego their cell phones, or microwave ovens or modern medicine. Of course not, and if you asked a pro racer if he's rather race sans the safety net, he'd laugh in your face.
So that leaves us with the option that the bikes have non of these systems while the racers are fully kitted out. Now can you hear the uproar because we aren't getting the latest kit.
Truth is having it is a long way from using it. Do you use EVERY function on your modern tablet or cell phone?? Probably not but when did anyone last complain about that??
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Yes - but my point is that people act as if it's a hero button, rather than a passive safety aid that they are highly unlikely to ever touch the sides with. "I'm really excited about these new electronics as it's now tied lean angle to throttle output - I can now just pin it mid bend"

No-one is doing this, but the bikes are being judged on it Top Trumps style, with less focus on torque/power characteristics, front end feel etc, which is what actually matters for your pace on the road.

I don't think your Ducati is a fair comparison - it's a 20 year old chassis with a modified 5 year old animal of an engine, in a race bike, being used on a race circuit to chase laptimes.

On the accidents I've witnessed in fast group road rides over 20 years, I can't recall a single one caused by running out of grip (except ironically, two of my own!). Wrong lines, target fixation, standing the bike up, panicking when the bike has a moment etc etc - The electronics don't stop that.

I know the normal luddite line is trotted out, but I work in technology and embrace change more than most - I just struggle to see why people get so excited and are prepared to pay an extra £5-£10k suddenly for a bike that has the latest iteration of something they will never use, even if TC was just a basic 'high side saver'.

I believe people are getting excited about the wrong aspects of the bike. No-one in this thread has even mentioned seeing a power/torque curve overlayed with the old R1, or talked about what they've done with geometry or fly by wire throttle software improvements for feel etc.

Questions like "Does it have a down shifting button with throttle blipper...?" Honestly it does sound like people are treating it like their new iPad rather than a new bike. Where is the end game and is it an end game that is ultimately desirable for riders?

I like my tech innovations. I like my bikes. I judge my tablet by its innovations as they define it. I don't judge new bikes on it as different factors define it for me.

I've voted with my feet, but as the market is moving in a different direction, I'm happy to admit that I'm the one out of step at this point on the evolutionary curve.

bass gt3

10,186 posts

232 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
PR36 said:
bass gt3 said:
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Sorry but this is exactly the dangerous talk I refer to. When you say fact have you actually done this? When you are at full lean by definition the rear tyre has nothing more to give. Opening the throttle to maximum would mean the computer would have to disable the throttle to avoid sending you into orbit. Personally I wouldn't want to try it having visions of Jorge Lorenzo at Laguna seca upside down 20 feet in the air and his Yamaha system was light years ahead of the r1. I can see how tc would help in not spinning the tyre as you lift the bike and apply max throttle on corner exit but I think people need to acknowledge the limits. But as for allowing you to ride like a buffoon and not crash, sorry, no!
Ermmm, yes I have, as I said. And at full lean, the tyre still has a significant contact patch but the moment of movement is now more acute. Accordingly, whilst camber thrust is still if effect, the margin of power required to maintain grip and therefore forward motion and the excess that will cause a break in traction and cause the rear to spin away is very fine indeed.
And my full lean is not the same as that of a MGP bike, so not a valid comparison. How do you workout that the tyre has nothing left to give at full lean?? If that were true, we'd be falling off at full lean, yet that's not the case. So when the bike is leant over, the TC system measures various parameters and will deny me the power I'm asking for hence preventing wheel spin and the resulting highside.
But define riding like a buffoon?? If by allowing me to open the throttle at the apex hard it does. Will it keep you from spearing off the track if the bike runs wide? No. But that's not the TC systems fault. It gave you the power requested at the lean angle without allowing the rear to spin out of control, but it won't ride the bike for you.
Don't confuse rider ability from bike ability. That's the danger, misunderstanding what the system does and how to use it. The only sensation if you've asked for too much is anything from a feeling of a dulled engine to a severe engine cut until the system decides the rear is able to take more power.
But this all depends on good suspension keeping the tyres in contact with the tarmac and the bike not being lifted up on pegs, fee, engine casings etc.
All TC does is allow you to have as much power as the system decides within the presented parameters.
On my Aprilia, level 8 is massively intrusive whereas Level 1 will allow the rear to slide in a controlled manner with the tyre slip ratio much higher compared to the front.


Lincsblokey

3,175 posts

154 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
You say your away from the curve Pete, but your not.

MCIA figures, The Fireblade was still the best selling 1000cc bike of 2014.

BMW increased massively, but still short of the blade.

And we all know how many electronic aids they come with.....

bass gt3

10,186 posts

232 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
3DP said:
bass gt3 said:
3DP said:
PR36 said:
fergus said:
Agree with all your points above, however, people need to bear in mind the grip levels of the tyres and the laws of physics not being overwritten by an R1 CPU!

.
100pct agree. It makes me cringe when I hear talk about tc and rider aids as though they are some magic bullet, the favourite being 'you can crack the throttle open and the bike will sort it out''. No it won't, the rider aids developed on moto gp bikes cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and yet the riders still manage to launch themselves at the scenery. The system on a road bike will be limited and can't magically make grip where there is none.
Exactly - on the road, they are largely pointless. 99% of people won't have the balls/skill/desire to approach the handling/grip limits in order to lean on electronics in the first place, and those that do, have the skill that they don't need them in the first place.

To me it's now smacking of top trumps, where you are nowhere if you haven't got the latest lean angle sensor tied in to your TC and fly by wire TBs. The reality is that none of this stuff will have any affect on the vast majority's dry road pace, back to back with it all being switched off. I've ridden with guys on S1000RRs on the road and their pace is dictated by their own ability and confidence, not the fact that they can suddenly come out of a 3rd gear sweeper with 45 degrees of lean and the throttle pinned. On the track, yes, but on the road these things are sales brochure gimmicks.

I've actually tried to lean on the TC on my own bike with it turned on to 'track' level (anymore than that and Anti-wheelie ruins feel/fun) and I can't get it to kick in on the road unless I blatantly try to by attempting stunts.
But that's progress Pete.
Truth is bikes performance on the road became irrelevant 10 years ago but what's the option?? Engine, chassis, tyre performance has moved in quantum leaps and the point of the modern systems I think is more of a safety net than a hero button. Whether you have the cahunas to wind a modern 1k up in 3rd gear at 45 degrees isn't really the point. If you get a bit clumsy it's there to stop you seeing your arse, which is a winner in my books. I can feel the rear tyre on the Duc getting very squirrely at full lean, 2nd gear hard drives and according to my logger, the TC is definitely intervening. This is then making me faster as it's keeping me just on the healthy side of awesome! People can witter on about the lack of skill or some such rubbish, but will those same people forego their cell phones, or microwave ovens or modern medicine. Of course not, and if you asked a pro racer if he's rather race sans the safety net, he'd laugh in your face.
So that leaves us with the option that the bikes have non of these systems while the racers are fully kitted out. Now can you hear the uproar because we aren't getting the latest kit.
Truth is having it is a long way from using it. Do you use EVERY function on your modern tablet or cell phone?? Probably not but when did anyone last complain about that??
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Yes - but my point is that people act as if it's a hero button, rather than a passive safety aid that they are highly unlikely to ever touch the sides with. "I'm really excited about these new electronics as it's now tied lean angle to throttle output - I can now just pin it mid bend"

No-one is doing this, but the bikes are being judged on it Top Trumps style, with less focus on torque/power characteristics, front end feel etc, which is what actually matters for your pace on the road.

I don't think your Ducati is a fair comparison - it's a 20 year old chassis with a modified 5 year old animal of an engine, in a race bike, being used on a race circuit to chase laptimes.

On the accidents I've witnessed in fast group road rides over 20 years, I can't recall a single one caused by running out of grip (except ironically, two of my own!). Wrong lines, target fixation, standing the bike up, panicking when the bike has a moment etc etc - The electronics don't stop that.

I know the normal luddite line is trotted out, but I work in technology and embrace change more than most - I just struggle to see why people get so excited and are prepared to pay an extra £5-£10k suddenly for a bike that has the latest iteration of something they will never use, even if TC was just a basic 'high side saver'.

I believe people are getting excited about the wrong aspects of the bike. No-one in this thread has even mentioned seeing a power/torque curve overlayed with the old R1, or talked about what they've done with geometry or fly by wire throttle software improvements for feel etc.

Questions like "Does it have a down shifting button with throttle blipper...?" Honestly it does sound like people are treating it like their new iPad rather than a new bike. Where is the end game and is it an end game that is ultimately desirable for riders?

I like my tech innovations. I like my bikes. I judge my tablet by its innovations as they define it. I don't judge new bikes on it as different factors define it for me.

I've voted with my feet, but as the market is moving in a different direction, I'm happy to admit that I'm the one out of step at this point on the evolutionary curve.
I think in truth, if you switched off/removed all the electronics from the R1,it'd still be a fantastic bike. No one sis trying to say these bikes are shockers hiding behind a curtain of electronic trickery to disguise their faults or failings.But these days, performance is dictated by computers. From the electronic fuel injection and ignition systems that enable the modern 200bhp bike to the myriad of electronic sub systems, which many people enthuse about despite not really understanding their purpose. Or even getting within 20% of using it, but technology sells. We live in a digital world, where the Typhoon fighter can't fly without it's computers and HD pictures of Lozenzo/Rossi/Marquez et all spinning the rear in glorious slo mo out of any corner. And that's what sells, same as it ever did. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.
But where I take exception is when a manufacturer dictates to me, the purchaser, how the system will manage my riding. It's my fundamental problem with the BMW where the settings are predefined and set by a person other than me. Hence why I like the Aprilia, where I can switch on or off any off the systems as I see fit. I want to be able to set the bikes parameters and if I want TCS off but Anti wheelie on with power set to 100bhp, then that's my decision.

fergus

6,430 posts

274 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
PR36 said:
bass gt3 said:
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Sorry but this is exactly the dangerous talk I refer to. When you say fact have you actually done this? When you are at full lean by definition the rear tyre has nothing more to give. Opening the throttle to maximum would mean the computer would have to disable the throttle to avoid sending you into orbit. Personally I wouldn't want to try it having visions of Jorge Lorenzo at Laguna seca upside down 20 feet in the air and his Yamaha system was light years ahead of the r1. I can see how tc would help in not spinning the tyre as you lift the bike and apply max throttle on corner exit but I think people need to acknowledge the limits. But as for allowing you to ride like a buffoon and not crash, sorry, no!
Not quite.

There is still grip available at max lean, but it takes very little extra throttle to overcome *available* grip. The throttle isn't disabled, but inputs from the throttle are filtered to only provide a portion of the requested power. This is typically done on the ignition, rather than fuelling side. as the lean angle from vertical is reduced, the severity of the cuts and the amount the ignition is retarded (reducing power) is reduced, and full power is gradually returned. You still require some drive even when at full lean...

BigHeartedTone

1,304 posts

216 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
TC, anti-wheel, auto down shift bleeper - they are all just elements of the total bike package.
But ones that are bloody useful on track - which is why they were used there first.

But they can be useful on the road - when I high sided my GSX-R last autumn coming off a roundabout - may be, just may be TC would have saved me. Having said that 4 days before somebody high sided infront of me in the wet at Snetterton and they were on a S1000RR...I was taking it very easy

PR36

341 posts

115 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
bass gt3 said:
How do you workout that the tyre has nothing left to give at full lean?? .
This statement tells me there isn't much to debate with you. Believe what you want to believe, all I ask is for others to take your statements with caution.

bass gt3

10,186 posts

232 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
PR36 said:
bass gt3 said:
How do you workout that the tyre has nothing left to give at full lean?? .
This statement tells me there isn't much to debate with you. Believe what you want to believe, all I ask is for others to take your statements with caution.
On the contrary. I'm all in for debate, but your statement seemed rather closed....
However, if you were to take a modern tyre, for example a Metzeler Racetec Slick 190/60 and fit it to a bike, you'd see how much tyre is on the road at full lean. The contact patch is significant, especially compared to the earlier 55 profiles. In fact the footprint is consistent all the way over and well after other bike parts are touching down and actually bigger than at fully upright.
But we need to be clear that the full lean of the bike may not be the same as the full lean of the tyre.

fergus

6,430 posts

274 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
PR36 said:
This statement tells me there isn't much to debate with you. Believe what you want to believe, all I ask is for others to take your statements with caution.
When you refer to full lean, are you talking about the ability of the tyre to roll over further, or the amount of grip available when the tyre is on its edge?

If the latter, per Steve's comment, the footprint (i.e. rubber on the road) is often similar, if not greater, than when the tyre is upright. However, due to the centripetal acceleration acting against the tyre (i.e. the mass of the bike wanting to move out from the centre of the corner), the grip may not take much to overwhelm it if an additional rotational force is applied, i.e. more power sent to the back wheel.

3DP

9,912 posts

233 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
bass gt3 said:
3DP said:
bass gt3 said:
3DP said:
PR36 said:
fergus said:
Agree with all your points above, however, people need to bear in mind the grip levels of the tyres and the laws of physics not being overwritten by an R1 CPU!

.
100pct agree. It makes me cringe when I hear talk about tc and rider aids as though they are some magic bullet, the favourite being 'you can crack the throttle open and the bike will sort it out''. No it won't, the rider aids developed on moto gp bikes cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and yet the riders still manage to launch themselves at the scenery. The system on a road bike will be limited and can't magically make grip where there is none.
Exactly - on the road, they are largely pointless. 99% of people won't have the balls/skill/desire to approach the handling/grip limits in order to lean on electronics in the first place, and those that do, have the skill that they don't need them in the first place.

To me it's now smacking of top trumps, where you are nowhere if you haven't got the latest lean angle sensor tied in to your TC and fly by wire TBs. The reality is that none of this stuff will have any affect on the vast majority's dry road pace, back to back with it all being switched off. I've ridden with guys on S1000RRs on the road and their pace is dictated by their own ability and confidence, not the fact that they can suddenly come out of a 3rd gear sweeper with 45 degrees of lean and the throttle pinned. On the track, yes, but on the road these things are sales brochure gimmicks.

I've actually tried to lean on the TC on my own bike with it turned on to 'track' level (anymore than that and Anti-wheelie ruins feel/fun) and I can't get it to kick in on the road unless I blatantly try to by attempting stunts.
But that's progress Pete.
Truth is bikes performance on the road became irrelevant 10 years ago but what's the option?? Engine, chassis, tyre performance has moved in quantum leaps and the point of the modern systems I think is more of a safety net than a hero button. Whether you have the cahunas to wind a modern 1k up in 3rd gear at 45 degrees isn't really the point. If you get a bit clumsy it's there to stop you seeing your arse, which is a winner in my books. I can feel the rear tyre on the Duc getting very squirrely at full lean, 2nd gear hard drives and according to my logger, the TC is definitely intervening. This is then making me faster as it's keeping me just on the healthy side of awesome! People can witter on about the lack of skill or some such rubbish, but will those same people forego their cell phones, or microwave ovens or modern medicine. Of course not, and if you asked a pro racer if he's rather race sans the safety net, he'd laugh in your face.
So that leaves us with the option that the bikes have non of these systems while the racers are fully kitted out. Now can you hear the uproar because we aren't getting the latest kit.
Truth is having it is a long way from using it. Do you use EVERY function on your modern tablet or cell phone?? Probably not but when did anyone last complain about that??
Fact is, and IF there's the grip, yes you really can open the throttle at full lean and let the bike sort it out for you. Having the balls to do it however is the real issue.
But Fergus hit the nail. To be fast, corner entry speed is #1 priority. But where TC comes in is allowing you to climb on the gas without the penalty of a high side if you misjudge it.
Yes - but my point is that people act as if it's a hero button, rather than a passive safety aid that they are highly unlikely to ever touch the sides with. "I'm really excited about these new electronics as it's now tied lean angle to throttle output - I can now just pin it mid bend"

No-one is doing this, but the bikes are being judged on it Top Trumps style, with less focus on torque/power characteristics, front end feel etc, which is what actually matters for your pace on the road.

I don't think your Ducati is a fair comparison - it's a 20 year old chassis with a modified 5 year old animal of an engine, in a race bike, being used on a race circuit to chase laptimes.

On the accidents I've witnessed in fast group road rides over 20 years, I can't recall a single one caused by running out of grip (except ironically, two of my own!). Wrong lines, target fixation, standing the bike up, panicking when the bike has a moment etc etc - The electronics don't stop that.

I know the normal luddite line is trotted out, but I work in technology and embrace change more than most - I just struggle to see why people get so excited and are prepared to pay an extra £5-£10k suddenly for a bike that has the latest iteration of something they will never use, even if TC was just a basic 'high side saver'.

I believe people are getting excited about the wrong aspects of the bike. No-one in this thread has even mentioned seeing a power/torque curve overlayed with the old R1, or talked about what they've done with geometry or fly by wire throttle software improvements for feel etc.

Questions like "Does it have a down shifting button with throttle blipper...?" Honestly it does sound like people are treating it like their new iPad rather than a new bike. Where is the end game and is it an end game that is ultimately desirable for riders?

I like my tech innovations. I like my bikes. I judge my tablet by its innovations as they define it. I don't judge new bikes on it as different factors define it for me.

I've voted with my feet, but as the market is moving in a different direction, I'm happy to admit that I'm the one out of step at this point on the evolutionary curve.
I think in truth, if you switched off/removed all the electronics from the R1,it'd still be a fantastic bike. No one sis trying to say these bikes are shockers hiding behind a curtain of electronic trickery to disguise their faults or failings.But these days, performance is dictated by computers. From the electronic fuel injection and ignition systems that enable the modern 200bhp bike to the myriad of electronic sub systems, which many people enthuse about despite not really understanding their purpose. Or even getting within 20% of using it, but technology sells. We live in a digital world, where the Typhoon fighter can't fly without it's computers and HD pictures of Lozenzo/Rossi/Marquez et all spinning the rear in glorious slo mo out of any corner. And that's what sells, same as it ever did. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.
But where I take exception is when a manufacturer dictates to me, the purchaser, how the system will manage my riding. It's my fundamental problem with the BMW where the settings are predefined and set by a person other than me. Hence why I like the Aprilia, where I can switch on or off any off the systems as I see fit. I want to be able to set the bikes parameters and if I want TCS off but Anti wheelie on with power set to 100bhp, then that's my decision.
I agree that it would be a great bike too without the electronics. I would argue, why not give an option for a vanilla, lower priced one, perhaps just with ABS? If it doesn't sell, then clearly the market doesn't want it.

I think where the gimmick side is truly shown for what it is, is the trickledown to 600s and MT09s and the like, with power modes, TC and antiwheelie on bikes that lets face it, have zero need for these. A basic TC to act for wet weather safety is the most that you could argue.

I agree with your point on BMW - I was seriously considering an S1000R recently - especially after the MCN bike show, but BMW pre-sets mean you have to spec up the electronics in order to get enough control to turn them right down/off. So their sales dept says "People want lots of electronics - look at the sales figures of the options", when really I'd have to pay an extra £1k to have the ability to turn them off.

Your Aprilia seems to have the best electronics recipe and there were some great deals to be had, but it's not comfortable for me and rightly or wrongly I don't really trust that V4, or Aprilia dealers' warranty service. frown


PR36

341 posts

115 months

Friday 27th February 2015
quotequote all
fergus said:
When you refer to full lean, are you talking about the ability of the tyre to roll over further, or the amount of grip available when the tyre is on its edge?

If the latter, per Steve's comment, the footprint (i.e. rubber on the road) is often similar, if not greater, than when the tyre is upright. However, due to the centripetal acceleration acting against the tyre (i.e. the mass of the bike wanting to move out from the centre of the corner), the grip may not take much to overwhelm it if an additional rotational force is applied, i.e. more power sent to the back wheel.
Sorry I've no desire to offend anyone but I've raced for many years and when I hear guys talking about using max lean, tc, using max throttle etc it just sounds like baloney. I remember being at brands last year and I asked a chap about his Ducati. He proceeded to explain about the tc system it was fitted with and how he could get it spinning up out of clearways. I was in the advanced group and I couldn't spot the guy as I wanted to see him doing it. Turns out he was in the inter group and when I watched him ride my dear departed gran was as likely to be spinning it up out of clearways as he was. This conversation seems a bit similar..

Fleegle

16,688 posts

175 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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PR36 said:
Sorry I've no desire to offend anyone but I've raced for many years and when I hear guys talking about using max lean, tc, using max throttle etc it just sounds like baloney. .
May I ask at what level you raced?

PR36

341 posts

115 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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Fleegle said:
PR36 said:
Sorry I've no desire to offend anyone but I've raced for many years and when I hear guys talking about using max lean, tc, using max throttle etc it just sounds like baloney. .
May I ask at what level you raced?
Certainly, it has been a few years since I did a road race but I still have my acu national license. Now I stick to track days.

spareparts

6,777 posts

226 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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I think modern electronics give you both the Hero button AND the Safety net.

The latest road going 1299, RSV4, S1000RR would all have been near-SBK winners if you rewind to where full analogue race bikes were 20 years years ago. And these road bikes can come with indicators, heated grips, etc!

My last 2 road offs were the result of running out of tyre grip. Cornering ABS would have helped (my scooter!) as I was on the brakes in a corner and the front end tucked. The other TC would have probably saved my Aprilia's rear losing traction whilst cranked over on the edge under acceleration.

I'm all for electronics if it keeps you alive and your P&J shiny. But going faster and faster is not the reason why we choose/buy certain bikes. You often want 'character', noise, looks, etc... and this is certainly true of the latest bikes that seem almost completely devoid of character and are merely uber fast washing machines - cue the S1000RR.

What I think a few here are saying, is that the 'optimum' may have been reached 6-7 years ago where bikes had ABS, some had basic TC (if at all), and their motors were generally untethered and raw power machines. This paradigm is the same for bikes as it is for cars: many of the latest cars are just too fast/efficient/anodyne compared to what was being made 10 years ago which had copious power to break traction, ABS to avert disaster, and not many electronics to reign [the power] in.

Modern F1/MotoGP is all about building the hairiest motor and optimising reducing the output from killing you with the electronics. The chassis is now 'dynamic' through electronically vectoring the power/torque output between the wheels.

fergus

6,430 posts

274 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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PR36 said:
fergus said:
When you refer to full lean, are you talking about the ability of the tyre to roll over further, or the amount of grip available when the tyre is on its edge?

If the latter, per Steve's comment, the footprint (i.e. rubber on the road) is often similar, if not greater, than when the tyre is upright. However, due to the centripetal acceleration acting against the tyre (i.e. the mass of the bike wanting to move out from the centre of the corner), the grip may not take much to overwhelm it if an additional rotational force is applied, i.e. more power sent to the back wheel.
Sorry I've no desire to offend anyone but I've raced for many years and when I hear guys talking about using max lean, tc, using max throttle etc it just sounds like baloney. I remember being at brands last year and I asked a chap about his Ducati. He proceeded to explain about the tc system it was fitted with and how he could get it spinning up out of clearways. I was in the advanced group and I couldn't spot the guy as I wanted to see him doing it. Turns out he was in the inter group and when I watched him ride my dear departed gran was as likely to be spinning it up out of clearways as he was. This conversation seems a bit similar..
I'm not talking about trying to emulate Rossi by squaring off a corner here. I'm talking about coming around clearways (for example) at 60% throttle and winding on too much throttle for the available grip from the rear tyre at that lean angle. This could be an extra 5%. A good TC system would *allow* the rider to dial in 100% throttle and potentially give a little bit of slip. However, whether the rider would choose to do this is clearly subjective.

I've not mentioned anywhere how I would personally want to crack the throttle 100%, spin the rear, etc, etc, even though I do have a decent 3rd party TCS fitted to my bike. I was making some points in relation to how a TCS may/could be used.

sc0tt

18,032 posts

200 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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Does it flame on over run?

Fleegle

16,688 posts

175 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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PR36 said:
Fleegle said:
PR36 said:
Sorry I've no desire to offend anyone but I've raced for many years and when I hear guys talking about using max lean, tc, using max throttle etc it just sounds like baloney. .
May I ask at what level you raced?
Certainly, it has been a few years since I did a road race but I still have my acu national license. Now I stick to track days.
Please don't take this as being rude...I'm just trying to build up a picture. I used to race 25 year old 250's that had such mod cons as a kickstart and a working front brake, but I was eligible for my National licence by the time I finished, I understand it is even easier to get it in the same class now

What were you riding and what era was more where my question was coming from

3DP

9,912 posts

233 months

Friday 27th February 2015
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Lincsblokey said:
You say your away from the curve Pete, but your not.

MCIA figures, The Fireblade was still the best selling 1000cc bike of 2014.

BMW increased massively, but still short of the blade.

And we all know how many electronic aids they come with.....
I didn't know that - although for me, the Blade is much better to ride than the S1000RR on the road, just because of the engine characteristics in the bottom and mid-range, comfort and front end. The true acid test is what Honda replace the current Blade with and how it sells.

Is the current Blade the last and best of the analogue Superbikes before they are consigned to history, or are Honda going to take a different path, still focusing on total control, with perhaps just the bare minimum of gadgets to keep up with the other manufacturers?

WSB seems less important than ever and they still win at the halo road events like the TT so perhaps they will keep up the Blade ethos with a blatantly more road focused bike, whilst the likes of Yamaha/BMW chase the tech, but perhaps don't get the sales.

Ducati, interestingly have realised the lower relevance of overly focused race bikes for the road with the launch of the 1299. A better road bike than the 1199 and not eligible for raceing, but also infused with electronics. Smartly, the non-S model loses a fair bit of the tech.