the bb trackday thread.
Discussion
bass gt3 said:
What is this 'Sighting Laps' rubbish??
Do you really have to go out and tootle around for 3 laps before you're allowed to get on it?? Are you serious??
What's wrong with session start, pit lane open, go out and ride, come in at end of session??
They're pretty useful at a new track too. We were thrown in at the deep end at Spa and it took ages to work out where the hell the track went, as we had to be "on it" from the get go. Do you really have to go out and tootle around for 3 laps before you're allowed to get on it?? Are you serious??
What's wrong with session start, pit lane open, go out and ride, come in at end of session??
In the UK they're supposed to calm nerves and take away some of the red mist too. Sadly it doesn't work as people just go throwing themselves off track on lap 4 instead.
It takes up all of 7-8 mins of the 140 min track time for each group, so not exactly a hardship
Nothing wrong with crashing on your first proper track day on your new (to you) trackbike... 
Best done right in front of the stands and pit lane, where everyone's watching, for maximum embarrassment. That was Cadwell for me. It ended up being my favourite track and the first track I moved up to Inters.
Glad you're ok and so's the bike, your day wasn't a write off, not much harm done
Best done right in front of the stands and pit lane, where everyone's watching, for maximum embarrassment. That was Cadwell for me. It ended up being my favourite track and the first track I moved up to Inters.Glad you're ok and so's the bike, your day wasn't a write off, not much harm done
mckeann said:
Sighting laps at the start of the first session only. It's for insurance purposes.
On a euro day with No Limits, you only do them on the first day of 3.
This is what I was told this year, even had to be 'shown round' Cadwell by someone for a lap by an Instructor who said 'please don't pass me' On a euro day with No Limits, you only do them on the first day of 3.
As said, no hardship really & it pays to see it there's any change in track surface/condition since the last session.
The "it's for insurance purposes" is a bit of a red herring. The insurer may well state that there must be three sighting laps, but the reasoning behind it is why there are these sighting laps. Primarily, that is to ensure that the TDO can demonstrate that they have done everything possible to highlight the dangers and promote safe, sensible riding. This in turn will help reduce the chances of someone successfully suing a TDO, as a successful claim requires negligence on the part of the TDO or track operator.
The sighting laps cover off other important parts such as where the marshall posts are and as Stu says, the track conditions, especially when wet. If someone does successfully sue them you can kiss goodbye to track days. Even Euro days will be stuffed as a resident of the EU has the right to bring the claim in their home country if they want, so one successful claim in the UK, stuffs up all trackdays, unless you're going to the States, Middle / Far East or Australia!
So whilst it is "for insurance purposes" the underlying reasons are the most important reasons.
The sighting laps cover off other important parts such as where the marshall posts are and as Stu says, the track conditions, especially when wet. If someone does successfully sue them you can kiss goodbye to track days. Even Euro days will be stuffed as a resident of the EU has the right to bring the claim in their home country if they want, so one successful claim in the UK, stuffs up all trackdays, unless you're going to the States, Middle / Far East or Australia!
So whilst it is "for insurance purposes" the underlying reasons are the most important reasons.
bass gt3 said:
What is this 'Sighting Laps' rubbish??
Do you really have to go out and tootle around for 3 laps before you're allowed to get on it?? Are you serious??
What's wrong with session start, pit lane open, go out and ride, come in at end of session??
Warming tyres, finding out if there's crap anywhere on the track, calming the nerves....Do you really have to go out and tootle around for 3 laps before you're allowed to get on it?? Are you serious??
What's wrong with session start, pit lane open, go out and ride, come in at end of session??
Rubbish would be 'getting on it' at the first left hander on a cold tyre and waking up in hospital. What the f
k does it matter, there isnt much prize money on the day! 
I was at the front of the sighting laps at Croft, safe to say it didn't last too long. 
I'm just in.
I got a big Mac meal with banana milkshake it was awesomE it's been like 3 days since I had one.
I've smoked a ton of fags coming up the road, my kidneys were bursting from holding in a pish the last 100 miles And I ate 3 twinkies
I had a great time. Nothing went wrong for me, and enjoyed it loads.
I'm away to my own bed and electric blanket.
I got a big Mac meal with banana milkshake it was awesomE it's been like 3 days since I had one.
I've smoked a ton of fags coming up the road, my kidneys were bursting from holding in a pish the last 100 miles And I ate 3 twinkies
I had a great time. Nothing went wrong for me, and enjoyed it loads.
I'm away to my own bed and electric blanket.
yonex said:
Warming tyres, finding out if there's crap anywhere on the track, calming the nerves....
Rubbish would be 'getting on it' at the first left hander on a cold tyre and waking up in hospital. What the fk does it matter, there isnt much prize money on the day!
Warming tyres?? There's two options here. 1.Tyre warmers. 2. Riding at a sensible pace on the first couple of laps to warm them up if you don't have warmers. 3 laps at the start of the day isn't going to keep your tyres warm for every session Rubbish would be 'getting on it' at the first left hander on a cold tyre and waking up in hospital. What the f
k does it matter, there isnt much prize money on the day! Crap on the track? Track conditions change on a lap by lap basis. There's even a flag for it. Going around for 3 laps at the start of the day is no guarantee that the track conditions will remain the same for the rest of the day. Also, part of your responsibility or tasks as a rider is to assess the track conditions per lap and ride accordingly.
Calming the nerves?? Hardly seems to be a valid reason. If you're nervous, what are you doing there?? Nerves are a sure fire way to come a cropper. Other than novice riders, I would have expected TD riders to be competent riders.
If however, as Loon says, it's for "insurance" or Duty of Care reasons, fair enough. Is every participant obliged to ride the siting laps, regardless of whether they've ridden the track before? Just seems a bit nannying having to ride around in formation for 3 laps or maybe a sad reflection on the nature of people not wanting to take personal responsibility for their actions. Throwing yourself into the scenery because the first turn is a left not a right is hardly the TDO's responsibility..
Would you sue the Dept. of Transport or the Roads Authority because you didn't know which way a road went??
Edited by bass gt3 on Thursday 30th April 00:53
The answer to the question posed in your last sentence is "yes". It can and does happen in the UK. We are an overly litigious society and whilst we may bemoan that, there is no value in pretending we're not and letting people run how they want to on track.
The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
LoonR1 said:
The answer to the question posed in your last sentence is "yes". It can and does happen in the UK. We are an overly litigious society and whilst we may bemoan that, there is no value in pretending we're not and letting people run how they want to on track.
The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
Loon,The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
No issue per se, just slightly bemused that TDO's need to cover themselves in such a manner. Now I suspect there's a little misunderstanding here. I'm not saying everyone should rollout of the pits on the first session and go Banzai. Indeed, first session out, the first few laps are taken at a moderate pace to make sure everything is kosher, bike is fine, rider is fine.
It's the mandated following of an instructor for 3 laps that seems a sad indictment of society. That people would partake a TD, fail to use simple common sense and then try to blame/sue the TDO for their stupidity resulting in said TDO's having to cover their backside is a poor situation.
bass gt3 said:
That people would partake a TD, fail to use simple common sense and then try to blame/sue the TDO for their stupidity resulting in said TDO's having to cover their backside is a poor situation.
Unfortunately, that's exactly Loons' point. I think we can all agree that it is sad it HAS to be that way, but as stated, the blame culture is in full swing so everyone has to do as much as possible to absolve themselves of responsibility.
Personally, Croft last Monday was my first motorbike trackday. I was grateful as hell for those sighting laps. I was that s
t, the sighting lap pace was too fast for me on the last lap.Edited by TheLordJohn on Thursday 30th April 06:12
bass gt3 said:
Loon,
No issue per se, just slightly bemused that TDO's need to cover themselves in such a manner. Now I suspect there's a little misunderstanding here. I'm not saying everyone should rollout of the pits on the first session and go Banzai. Indeed, first session out, the first few laps are taken at a moderate pace to make sure everything is kosher, bike is fine, rider is fine.
It's the mandated following of an instructor for 3 laps that seems a sad indictment of society. That people would partake a TD, fail to use simple common sense and then try to blame/sue the TDO for their stupidity resulting in said TDO's having to cover their backside is a poor situation.
I agree, but the issue is society and our legal system, rather than the TDOs being too "nanny state". This is merely a counter action to the litigation so prevalent nowadays. The laps all build up speed as they go and are done at an appropriate pace for the group. Fast will start off at a pace that's higher than Novice manage to get to on lap 3. No issue per se, just slightly bemused that TDO's need to cover themselves in such a manner. Now I suspect there's a little misunderstanding here. I'm not saying everyone should rollout of the pits on the first session and go Banzai. Indeed, first session out, the first few laps are taken at a moderate pace to make sure everything is kosher, bike is fine, rider is fine.
It's the mandated following of an instructor for 3 laps that seems a sad indictment of society. That people would partake a TD, fail to use simple common sense and then try to blame/sue the TDO for their stupidity resulting in said TDO's having to cover their backside is a poor situation.
LoonR1 said:
The answer to the question posed in your last sentence is "yes". It can and does happen in the UK. We are an overly litigious society and whilst we may bemoan that, there is no value in pretending we're not and letting people run how they want to on track.
The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
Exactly. If it stops some dick from crashing straight away and taking the track day organiser to court, I'm all for it. The increase in costs to them would only be passed on to us otherwise. The sighting laps have been around forever, as far as I'm aware, and will continue to be there. No Limits have even had to up their game to ensure all do these laps before being let out on track, see George29's comment for evidence of this.
I'm not sure what your issue is with it though. As it's a minor inconvenience at worst, with a huge upside in that we get to enjoy trackdays (in my case got) as the chances of a successful claim are virtually zero. Remove the sighting laps and it becomes more likely that a claim could succeed. It is a part of the criteria that the track owner insist on too.
The nerves aspect is relevant, even seasoned pros like a couple of sighting laps themselves to bed in so what makes us better riders than them? Those that go balls out from the get go, often come a cropper a la Josh Brookes style in a few races last year.
I really don't see why people think sighting laps are a bad thing? It's 3 laps at the start of the day, not like it takes long. It shows you the way round the track if you haven't been for a while / before; highlights where the marshall posts and lights are; shows the condition of the track; gets you used to the bike at the start of the day; and warms the bike up. What is the issue? I would guarantee without sighting laps, there would be a lot more crashes on track days.
The PITA are those organisers who insist that all groups do their sighting laps sequentially, rather than at the start of their first allocated session. It's far better, given the requirement to complete them, that they're done, and the instructor keeping the pace down then rolls into the pits at the end of the third lap to allow normal lapping to commence.
gwm said:
Do NL do sighting laps for every session if it's particularly wet? Knockhill at the end of March made everyone in Novice ans Inters do 2 sighting laps every session due to cold/wet conditions.
No just 3 at the beginning of the day.They used to do 2 in the morning then 1 after dinner which I thought was quite a good idea, but it did take up more time than doing 3 sequentially.
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