916 Shape - With 1098/1198 Engine Swap?
Discussion
Ok,
It's 3am and just finished paper work and been thinking....... Rather than buying nearly new and changing 12 months later which is my normal trend, I'd rather have something personalised and keep it for a very long time.
We've seen a lot and some on here have done the common mod of putting the 999/1098/1198 engine in the old 916/748/996/998 trellis frames. That appeals to me massively, like a tramp on chips.
But hear me out because when it comes to actually working on bikes, I am a proper retard, hell, I even think I'm retarded full time but can someone explain how easy/difficult it is to actually do this mod?
I mean, does it actually just fit straight in?
does the battery sit in the same place?
Anything need to be moved?
The exhaust ports, same place? Do you need custom headers/half system to attach on to an old 50-something mill system?
I'd update the forks, shock and brakes......
Anyone know of any links that go in to detail about a similar build please?
Cheers
It's 3am and just finished paper work and been thinking....... Rather than buying nearly new and changing 12 months later which is my normal trend, I'd rather have something personalised and keep it for a very long time.
We've seen a lot and some on here have done the common mod of putting the 999/1098/1198 engine in the old 916/748/996/998 trellis frames. That appeals to me massively, like a tramp on chips.
But hear me out because when it comes to actually working on bikes, I am a proper retard, hell, I even think I'm retarded full time but can someone explain how easy/difficult it is to actually do this mod?
I mean, does it actually just fit straight in?
does the battery sit in the same place?
Anything need to be moved?
The exhaust ports, same place? Do you need custom headers/half system to attach on to an old 50-something mill system?
I'd update the forks, shock and brakes......
Anyone know of any links that go in to detail about a similar build please?
Cheers
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php...
Don't even think about it unless you are properly skilled..........
Don't even think about it unless you are properly skilled..........
Edited by abw280 on Friday 6th March 08:34
Engine will bolt-in, biggest issues are airbox and exhaust headers (because intakes and exhausts are in different location) otherwise reasonably straightforward if you have the know-how.
As said above BassGT3 has done it and there are plenty of build threads on Ducati forums, try Ducati.ms for some useful info.
As said above BassGT3 has done it and there are plenty of build threads on Ducati forums, try Ducati.ms for some useful info.
Yep, I have an 1198 motor in a 748R frame and at 167bhp and 164kgs with a full tank, I can report it goes EXCEPTIONALLY well. It'll live with a S1KRR or ZX10 in a straight line it's that fast!
As for building one, it's not overly difficult but you'll need one of each donor bike and decide how serious you want to be.
Starting with the frame you want to put it in.
The ideal is the 748R frame as the mid frame cross member is deeper due to the R airbox being different to the normal bikes. What this means is with the NON R frame, the 1198 throttle bodies foul this crossmember whereas on the R frame it's a straight fit.
If you don't have an R frame, you have 2 options.
1) Reverse the throttle bodies and fit longer throttle cables as the originals now won't reach.
2) Cut the crossmember and lower it, reweld and powdercoat.
Assuming you're using and R frame, the motor will slot straight in with just the rear engine bolt holes needing drilling due to the bigger diameter bolts in the 1x98 engine.
Now with the motor in, you'll want to carry over the entire wiring system, dashboard, battery box etc from the donor 1198. It'll go straight in, no dramas. If you're using the 1x98 ECU you MUST use the dashboard as it contains air baro & temp sensors. Without, the ECU will default and not auto adjust.
Exhausts are a doddle. I would recommend a custom system as the 996 series 50mm pipes are too small for the 1198 motor. Plenty of good companies can sort this if you have just the headers.
Cooling system and pipes is a straight carry over from the donor 1198, zero dramas. Same for the oil cooler as it mounts to the front head.
Airbox and injection system.
This is a little more complicated as the ideal airbox is the larger EVO unit. Now you'll need a good CF person who can cut it and integrate the base of the 1198 airbox or cut it to match to fit the throttle bodies. Next up you'll need to fashion some brackets to hold the injectors as these are held in the 1198 airbox lid, which you now don't have.
The rest is pretty straightforward and the upside is the 1198 motor is some 15kgs lighter than the 996 Desmoquattro.
However, WRT the chassis, I would recommend sourcing a longer swingarm as the wheelbase is very short. You can then pull the rake in on the eccentric headstock adjuster and the geometry is very close to the 1198. it will wheelie like a mad thing however.
As for funky bits, the world is your oyster. From ali subframes with the oil vapour box.
In truth, unless you have access to a COMPLETE 1190 donor, crash damaged etc, it's an expensive proposition. Add in a decent 748/996 recipient and you could be looking at 6-8K just for the two donors.
I built mine because I had a fully sorted 996 series track bike and needed a new motor and wasn't really too keen on the 1198 looks. I wanted the 996 I had years ago, but better, much better. Considering the trial and errors, it's a stupendous but don't underestimate the march of progress.
But if you do it, and you love the Ducati thing, it's a bike you'll never tire off.
But seeing the face on an S1KRR guy's face as you fook off into the distance is priceless.
As for building one, it's not overly difficult but you'll need one of each donor bike and decide how serious you want to be.
Starting with the frame you want to put it in.
The ideal is the 748R frame as the mid frame cross member is deeper due to the R airbox being different to the normal bikes. What this means is with the NON R frame, the 1198 throttle bodies foul this crossmember whereas on the R frame it's a straight fit.
If you don't have an R frame, you have 2 options.
1) Reverse the throttle bodies and fit longer throttle cables as the originals now won't reach.
2) Cut the crossmember and lower it, reweld and powdercoat.
Assuming you're using and R frame, the motor will slot straight in with just the rear engine bolt holes needing drilling due to the bigger diameter bolts in the 1x98 engine.
Now with the motor in, you'll want to carry over the entire wiring system, dashboard, battery box etc from the donor 1198. It'll go straight in, no dramas. If you're using the 1x98 ECU you MUST use the dashboard as it contains air baro & temp sensors. Without, the ECU will default and not auto adjust.
Exhausts are a doddle. I would recommend a custom system as the 996 series 50mm pipes are too small for the 1198 motor. Plenty of good companies can sort this if you have just the headers.
Cooling system and pipes is a straight carry over from the donor 1198, zero dramas. Same for the oil cooler as it mounts to the front head.
Airbox and injection system.
This is a little more complicated as the ideal airbox is the larger EVO unit. Now you'll need a good CF person who can cut it and integrate the base of the 1198 airbox or cut it to match to fit the throttle bodies. Next up you'll need to fashion some brackets to hold the injectors as these are held in the 1198 airbox lid, which you now don't have.
The rest is pretty straightforward and the upside is the 1198 motor is some 15kgs lighter than the 996 Desmoquattro.
However, WRT the chassis, I would recommend sourcing a longer swingarm as the wheelbase is very short. You can then pull the rake in on the eccentric headstock adjuster and the geometry is very close to the 1198. it will wheelie like a mad thing however.
As for funky bits, the world is your oyster. From ali subframes with the oil vapour box.
In truth, unless you have access to a COMPLETE 1190 donor, crash damaged etc, it's an expensive proposition. Add in a decent 748/996 recipient and you could be looking at 6-8K just for the two donors.
I built mine because I had a fully sorted 996 series track bike and needed a new motor and wasn't really too keen on the 1198 looks. I wanted the 996 I had years ago, but better, much better. Considering the trial and errors, it's a stupendous but don't underestimate the march of progress.
But if you do it, and you love the Ducati thing, it's a bike you'll never tire off.
But seeing the face on an S1KRR guy's face as you fook off into the distance is priceless.
braddersm3 said:
Why not just buy the nicest,mintest 996/998 it's not as though they're massively lacking in power.?.Surely that's a bike to keep for a long time.
I've already owned a 1098S and used to that kind of power. a 996/998 engine is waaaaaay less power and will feel flat in comparison. I want something that is slightly barmy and from what Bass says, an 1198 is what I want.
bass gt3 said:
Yep, I have an 1198 motor in a 748R frame and at 167bhp and 164kgs with a full tank, I can report it goes EXCEPTIONALLY well. It'll live with a S1KRR or ZX10 in a straight line it's that fast!
As for building one, it's not overly difficult but you'll need one of each donor bike and decide how serious you want to be.
Starting with the frame you want to put it in.
The ideal is the 748R frame as the mid frame cross member is deeper due to the R airbox being different to the normal bikes. What this means is with the NON R frame, the 1198 throttle bodies foul this crossmember whereas on the R frame it's a straight fit.
If you don't have an R frame, you have 2 options.
1) Reverse the throttle bodies and fit longer throttle cables as the originals now won't reach.
2) Cut the crossmember and lower it, reweld and powdercoat.
Assuming you're using and R frame, the motor will slot straight in with just the rear engine bolt holes needing drilling due to the bigger diameter bolts in the 1x98 engine.
Now with the motor in, you'll want to carry over the entire wiring system, dashboard, battery box etc from the donor 1198. It'll go straight in, no dramas. If you're using the 1x98 ECU you MUST use the dashboard as it contains air baro & temp sensors. Without, the ECU will default and not auto adjust.
Exhausts are a doddle. I would recommend a custom system as the 996 series 50mm pipes are too small for the 1198 motor. Plenty of good companies can sort this if you have just the headers.
Cooling system and pipes is a straight carry over from the donor 1198, zero dramas. Same for the oil cooler as it mounts to the front head.
Airbox and injection system.
This is a little more complicated as the ideal airbox is the larger EVO unit. Now you'll need a good CF person who can cut it and integrate the base of the 1198 airbox or cut it to match to fit the throttle bodies. Next up you'll need to fashion some brackets to hold the injectors as these are held in the 1198 airbox lid, which you now don't have.
The rest is pretty straightforward and the upside is the 1198 motor is some 15kgs lighter than the 996 Desmoquattro.
However, WRT the chassis, I would recommend sourcing a longer swingarm as the wheelbase is very short. You can then pull the rake in on the eccentric headstock adjuster and the geometry is very close to the 1198. it will wheelie like a mad thing however.
As for funky bits, the world is your oyster. From ali subframes with the oil vapour box.
In truth, unless you have access to a COMPLETE 1190 donor, crash damaged etc, it's an expensive proposition. Add in a decent 748/996 recipient and you could be looking at 6-8K just for the two donors.
I built mine because I had a fully sorted 996 series track bike and needed a new motor and wasn't really too keen on the 1198 looks. I wanted the 996 I had years ago, but better, much better. Considering the trial and errors, it's a stupendous but don't underestimate the march of progress.
But if you do it, and you love the Ducati thing, it's a bike you'll never tire off.
But seeing the face on an S1KRR guy's face as you fook off into the distance is priceless.
Bass GT3,As for building one, it's not overly difficult but you'll need one of each donor bike and decide how serious you want to be.
Starting with the frame you want to put it in.
The ideal is the 748R frame as the mid frame cross member is deeper due to the R airbox being different to the normal bikes. What this means is with the NON R frame, the 1198 throttle bodies foul this crossmember whereas on the R frame it's a straight fit.
If you don't have an R frame, you have 2 options.
1) Reverse the throttle bodies and fit longer throttle cables as the originals now won't reach.
2) Cut the crossmember and lower it, reweld and powdercoat.
Assuming you're using and R frame, the motor will slot straight in with just the rear engine bolt holes needing drilling due to the bigger diameter bolts in the 1x98 engine.
Now with the motor in, you'll want to carry over the entire wiring system, dashboard, battery box etc from the donor 1198. It'll go straight in, no dramas. If you're using the 1x98 ECU you MUST use the dashboard as it contains air baro & temp sensors. Without, the ECU will default and not auto adjust.
Exhausts are a doddle. I would recommend a custom system as the 996 series 50mm pipes are too small for the 1198 motor. Plenty of good companies can sort this if you have just the headers.
Cooling system and pipes is a straight carry over from the donor 1198, zero dramas. Same for the oil cooler as it mounts to the front head.
Airbox and injection system.
This is a little more complicated as the ideal airbox is the larger EVO unit. Now you'll need a good CF person who can cut it and integrate the base of the 1198 airbox or cut it to match to fit the throttle bodies. Next up you'll need to fashion some brackets to hold the injectors as these are held in the 1198 airbox lid, which you now don't have.
The rest is pretty straightforward and the upside is the 1198 motor is some 15kgs lighter than the 996 Desmoquattro.
However, WRT the chassis, I would recommend sourcing a longer swingarm as the wheelbase is very short. You can then pull the rake in on the eccentric headstock adjuster and the geometry is very close to the 1198. it will wheelie like a mad thing however.
As for funky bits, the world is your oyster. From ali subframes with the oil vapour box.
In truth, unless you have access to a COMPLETE 1190 donor, crash damaged etc, it's an expensive proposition. Add in a decent 748/996 recipient and you could be looking at 6-8K just for the two donors.
I built mine because I had a fully sorted 996 series track bike and needed a new motor and wasn't really too keen on the 1198 looks. I wanted the 996 I had years ago, but better, much better. Considering the trial and errors, it's a stupendous but don't underestimate the march of progress.
But if you do it, and you love the Ducati thing, it's a bike you'll never tire off.
But seeing the face on an S1KRR guy's face as you fook off into the distance is priceless.
Thanks for taking the time to type that. I think we are on the same wave length regarding having the old looks with awesome power output. I liked and owned a 1098 but the older looks, I always loved. The 916 got me in to bikes!
I was expecting with all the labour involved, considering I won't be doing anything too difficult, will be almost as much as the donors! Sourcing a 748R frame will also be a complete b
d. Thanks for the info and if you don't mind, can I PM you further down the line for little hints and tips etc please?
Jewelly_Boy said:
Bass GT3,
Thanks for taking the time to type that. I think we are on the same wave length regarding having the old looks with awesome power output. I liked and owned a 1098 but the older looks, I always loved. The 916 got me in to bikes!
I was expecting with all the labour involved, considering I won't be doing anything too difficult, will be almost as much as the donors! Sourcing a 748R frame will also be a complete bd.
Thanks for the info and if you don't mind, can I PM you further down the line for little hints and tips etc please?
This is my old girl, love her to bits!!Thanks for taking the time to type that. I think we are on the same wave length regarding having the old looks with awesome power output. I liked and owned a 1098 but the older looks, I always loved. The 916 got me in to bikes!
I was expecting with all the labour involved, considering I won't be doing anything too difficult, will be almost as much as the donors! Sourcing a 748R frame will also be a complete b
d. Thanks for the info and if you don't mind, can I PM you further down the line for little hints and tips etc please?
And please feel free to drop me a line or post here if you decide to go ahead. In truth, if you can find a shonky old 748 and a wrecked 1198 you're set. Getting custom throttle cables made would be a doddle. so nothing to worry some all told
abw280 said:
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php...
Don't even think about it unless you pay someone properly skilled..........
Edited accordingly....Don't even think about it unless you pay someone properly skilled..........
Edited by abw280 on Friday 6th March 08:34
catso said:
998 frame is also suitable but even a non 'Kyalami' frame will work if you can cut out the old and weld in a new crossmember - not really much of a job even if you have to pay a welder to do it...
Agreed, I actually had my spare frame which was from a 996 Bip cut and welded just in case. Not hard for a good welder.The real advantage of finding a scuzzy 74R is they're not a desirable model like the 996/998R's and you gat a pukka frame and a lot of the useful trinkets like single seat, ali subframe etc. Plus you could sell the motor for reasonable $$ but I cn't recall ifit runs the P8 ECU or not. If so, with the ignition modules that's worth a few quid second hand a well as the clocks etc
So you could possibly come out just behind by parting out the 748 and then it's what the crashed 1198 costs.
My forks are the Ohlins FG8500's from a 996SPS.
When building my bike, i bought a non running SPS and a shonky 748R track bike as parts bikes. The guy wth the R did't know what he had as it transpired the bike ad been owned previously by the then deceased owner of Ducati Johannesburg. It was laden with trick bits like Mag swing arm, Mag rear hub, mag steering eccentric, mag triple clamps and so on. Very lucky find!
ssray said:
999 project on performance bikes at the mo`, any good?
Yeah, watching that...I almost bought a 999 with a 1098 engine in from "Pit-Karts" on that forum, was only £4k but sadly wrong time with building work etc
Good forum, one of the best on the internet for special builds. The 500cc Motogp bike is insanely awesome.
With all due respect to Bass's lovely creation, personally, lacking stack to burn, much technical or mechanical ability, I had wondered about the easier option, just sticking a 998 fairing on a 1198....
OK, it is clearly a hybrid, but IMO there is nothing too wrong with the 1198 tank and tail, it is just the CBR ish fairing that let's it down.
You could, in an ideal world, pick up a scuffed 1198 and do this, ending up with the 998 looking 1198 performing dream Ducati slightly cheaper than a "normal" one...
OK, it is clearly a hybrid, but IMO there is nothing too wrong with the 1198 tank and tail, it is just the CBR ish fairing that let's it down.
You could, in an ideal world, pick up a scuffed 1198 and do this, ending up with the 998 looking 1198 performing dream Ducati slightly cheaper than a "normal" one...
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