Static Sag v Rider Sag
Discussion
Mr OCD said:
bass gt3 said:
Balance is the key. As long as the bike depresses equally when pressed then you're ok. But going by the numbers above I'd say you're getting there.
Ohlins reckon 25 to 40mm rear and 35 to 50mm front as a dynamic number. I think that's a tad on the soft end at the extreme end but gives you a good idea
I've found that balance really comes from tweaking the comp screws so each end compresses evenly ... rather than the sag.Ohlins reckon 25 to 40mm rear and 35 to 50mm front as a dynamic number. I think that's a tad on the soft end at the extreme end but gives you a good idea
Rode the bike this morning and it feels great! Well impressed!
It's probably a little soft for track work but for the road its damn good... I will probably add a tiny bit of compression to both ends over the weekend but I want to go out on the bike for a few hours and experiment whilst the suspension is warm on the bike.
I'm no longer skipping over bad roads and it feels utterly planted in corners. Very confident inspiring.
Did more reading and apparently running a bit more sag in the front can be beneficial as it can prevent the wheel lifting under acceleration which is why most suspension experts recommend a bit more sag in the front than the rear. Makes sense... it also means I can get away with not winding up the preload so much on the front.
I might try going down a notch on the rear at some point as part of the learning process.
Understanding it is one thing... putting it into practice and feeling the difference is another. Hence by only changing one thing at a time you can experience the difference properly. Rather cool
My work here................IS DONE!
bass gt3 said:
See what I mean about instilling compliance into the bike? Yes, for track it might want a tad more comp but return to normal for road.
My work here................IS DONE!
What no more teaching!!! LolMy work here................IS DONE!
Got a track day booked so will be looking at how much compression to dial in for it ... I assume I won't need to touch anything else?
I will also be double checking sag fully kitted ... But that's for another day.
Mr OCD said:
What no more teaching!!! Lol
Got a track day booked so will be looking at how much compression to dial in for it ... I assume I won't need to touch anything else?
I will also be double checking sag fully kitted ... But that's for another day.
I would start with half a turn of comp and see what the tyres are telling you. But try to avoid making the bike overly stiff, let the suspension work with the tyre, you'll be very impressed.Got a track day booked so will be looking at how much compression to dial in for it ... I assume I won't need to touch anything else?
I will also be double checking sag fully kitted ... But that's for another day.
bass gt3 said:
I would start with half a turn of comp and see what the tyres are telling you. But try to avoid making the bike overly stiff, let the suspension work with the tyre, you'll be very impressed.
Well I've still to play with compression on the road yet ... A quarter turn at a time ...That will hopefully give me an idea of where I need to be at for track work.
Mr OCD said:
Thoughts on these settings?
Done by JHS racing for a road going Honda Fireblade owner (same as mine) who weighs 15 stone ...
Genuinely surprised by them tbh.
Problem is the static sag, as said it's pretty meaningless. However, the shop does need the rider to be present so there's a two way responsibility there.
Done by JHS racing for a road going Honda Fireblade owner (same as mine) who weighs 15 stone ...
Genuinely surprised by them tbh.
But I'm not convinced by the rebound number being only 1 turn out. I'd suspect that'd be too slow even when warmed up.
bass gt3 said:
Problem is the static sag, as said it's pretty meaningless. However, the shop does need the rider to be present so there's a two way responsibility there.
But I'm not convinced by the rebound number being only 1 turn out. I'd suspect that'd be too slow even when warmed up.
Strange isn't it ... Maybe I should try them to see what it's like ... I'm just curious... But I'm not convinced by the rebound number being only 1 turn out. I'd suspect that'd be too slow even when warmed up.
This place has a big reputation as well as do a lot of race / TT prep bikes ...
I know for a fact though that 6 turns preload on front is going to result in about 50mm of sag with 15 stone on board ...
Mr OCD said:
bass gt3 said:
Problem is the static sag, as said it's pretty meaningless. However, the shop does need the rider to be present so there's a two way responsibility there.
But I'm not convinced by the rebound number being only 1 turn out. I'd suspect that'd be too slow even when warmed up.
Strange isn't it ... Maybe I should try them to see what it's like ... I'm just curious... But I'm not convinced by the rebound number being only 1 turn out. I'd suspect that'd be too slow even when warmed up.
This place has a big reputation as well as do a lot of race / TT prep bikes ...
I know for a fact though that 6 turns preload on front is going to result in about 50mm of sag with 15 stone on board ...
But make sure you start making notes so you can revert back easily
Thread Hijack
Im puzzled - I got my step son to measure my settings today. They are set to factory settings at the moment. Probably not the best person to ask tbh as he was on a all dayer yesterday but just wanted to get a rough idea what its set like. As I was only trying to get a rough idea the bike was stone cold.
The readings
Front topped out 102mm
Me on the bike 88mm
Rear topped out 603mm
Me on the bike 598mm
Am I correct that I should be expecting about 30-35mm difference ?
Rode the bike again today on some of my favourite twisters. Although its loads better that when I first got it I feel it doesn't want to turn, entry isnt so bad but mid corner at either neutral or slightly on the throttle it feels like it just wants to go straight on. Corner exit issnt so bad just like entry. The rear end still feels stiff its still skipping about on power not half as bad as it was though. When I first got it it was skipping while going over cats eyes now its only on bumpy section's.
Having never ridden a 1l before and a its totally different bike its going to be different. What differences should I expect from a 1L ? Presumably mainly just a little slower to turn due to extra weight ?
Im puzzled - I got my step son to measure my settings today. They are set to factory settings at the moment. Probably not the best person to ask tbh as he was on a all dayer yesterday but just wanted to get a rough idea what its set like. As I was only trying to get a rough idea the bike was stone cold.
The readings
Front topped out 102mm
Me on the bike 88mm
Rear topped out 603mm
Me on the bike 598mm
Am I correct that I should be expecting about 30-35mm difference ?
Rode the bike again today on some of my favourite twisters. Although its loads better that when I first got it I feel it doesn't want to turn, entry isnt so bad but mid corner at either neutral or slightly on the throttle it feels like it just wants to go straight on. Corner exit issnt so bad just like entry. The rear end still feels stiff its still skipping about on power not half as bad as it was though. When I first got it it was skipping while going over cats eyes now its only on bumpy section's.
Having never ridden a 1l before and a its totally different bike its going to be different. What differences should I expect from a 1L ? Presumably mainly just a little slower to turn due to extra weight ?
Edited by theshrew on Saturday 4th April 23:38
theshrew said:
Thread Hijack
Im puzzled - I got my step son to measure my settings today. They are set to factory settings at the moment. Probably not the best person to ask tbh as he was on a all dayer yesterday but just wanted to get a rough idea what its set like. As I was only trying to get a rough idea the bike was stone cold.
The readings
Front topped out 102mm
Me on the bike 88mm
Rear topped out 603mm
Me on the bike 598mm
Am I correct that I should be expecting about 30-35mm difference ?
Rode the bike again today on some of my favourite twisters. Although its loads better that when I first got it I feel it doesn't want to turn, entry isnt so bad but mid corner at either neutral or slightly on the throttle it feels like it just wants to go straight on. Corner exit issnt so bad just like entry. The rear end still feels stiff its still skipping about on power not half as bad as it was though. When I first got it it was skipping while going over cats eyes now its only on bumpy section's.
Having never ridden a 1l before and a its totally different bike its going to be different. What differences should I expect from a 1L ? Presumably mainly just a little slower to turn due to extra weight ?
What bike is it?? Model/yearIm puzzled - I got my step son to measure my settings today. They are set to factory settings at the moment. Probably not the best person to ask tbh as he was on a all dayer yesterday but just wanted to get a rough idea what its set like. As I was only trying to get a rough idea the bike was stone cold.
The readings
Front topped out 102mm
Me on the bike 88mm
Rear topped out 603mm
Me on the bike 598mm
Am I correct that I should be expecting about 30-35mm difference ?
Rode the bike again today on some of my favourite twisters. Although its loads better that when I first got it I feel it doesn't want to turn, entry isnt so bad but mid corner at either neutral or slightly on the throttle it feels like it just wants to go straight on. Corner exit issnt so bad just like entry. The rear end still feels stiff its still skipping about on power not half as bad as it was though. When I first got it it was skipping while going over cats eyes now its only on bumpy section's.
Having never ridden a 1l before and a its totally different bike its going to be different. What differences should I expect from a 1L ? Presumably mainly just a little slower to turn due to extra weight ?
Edited by theshrew on Saturday 4th April 23:38
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
bass gt3 said:
What bike is it?? Model/year
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Yamaha R1 4C8 ... 2008And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Sounds like sag is way too high to overcome preload ... The R1 likes more sag than most ... Aim for around 40mm front, 30-35 rear ...
Rick: if need hand fella pop over
I did find the R1 needed more effort to turn when pushing on... That's the bike mor than setup but your sag figures are too low.
bass gt3 said:
What bike is it?? Model/year
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
07 / 08 R1 And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Topped out was measured as far as I could pull it in the air. Presumably better to jack it up to get a true figure. I can do that again as Kevin the teenager was more interested in being cold and hungry at the time.
Measurements taken from the flat on the swing arm to a masking tape mark I put directly above and on the front from the bottom of the casting the fork sits in to the bottom of the fork seal. Thinking about it should have done it to the above casting as the seal may throw in a slight in balance.
Even as a rough guide those are miles out arnet they ?
Mr OCD said:
bass gt3 said:
What bike is it?? Model/year
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Yamaha R1 4C8 ... 2008And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Sounds like sag is way too high to overcome preload ... The R1 likes more sag than most ... Aim for around 40mm front, 30-35 rear ...
Rick: if need hand fella pop over
I did find the R1 needed more effort to turn when pushing on... That's the bike mor than setup but your sag figures are too low.
However, if you're not measuring correctly, then 125 (nominal to 88mm equals 32mm sag, which is in the right zone if a little less than ideal.
As for the rear, where were you measuring???? 5mm sag is saying you have no suspension!!
If however you're measuring with the bike on it's wheels but no rider aboard, start again, you're wasting your time. You MUST measure from the wheels completely in the air, suspension totally unloaded.
theshrew said:
bass gt3 said:
What bike is it?? Model/year
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
07 / 08 R1 And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Topped out was measured as far as I could pull it in the air. Presumably better to jack it up to get a true figure. I can do that again as Kevin the teenager was more interested in being cold and hungry at the time.
Measurements taken from the flat on the swing arm to a masking tape mark I put directly above and on the front from the bottom of the casting the fork sits in to the bottom of the fork seal. Thinking about it should have done it to the above casting as the seal may throw in a slight in balance.
Even as a rough guide those are miles out arnet they ?
Yes, you must lift the bike right up. The suspension needs to be FULLY unloaded. Start again
On the rear, you need to measure vertically from the rear axle nut. NOT anywhere else like along the swing arm or such. ONLY from the axle nut directly upwards. Again, the rear needs to be FULLY unloaded, the wheel a couple of inches off the ground. Start again
Mr OCD said:
bass gt3 said:
What bike is it?? Model/year
And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Yamaha R1 4C8 ... 2008And clarify topped out. Were the bikes wheels off the ground and where did you measure from?
Sounds like sag is way too high to overcome preload ... The R1 likes more sag than most ... Aim for around 40mm front, 30-35 rear ...
Rick: if need hand fella pop over
I did find the R1 needed more effort to turn when pushing on... That's the bike mor than setup but your sag figures are too low.
No, the R1 doesn't like more sag than most, it's a result of incorrect set up. Sag when right doesn't affect the geometry, don't be propagating urban myths which are baseless.
As for effort to turn, there's many other factors. Shallower rake, heavy wheels, forks pushed through to much, excessive trail due to triple clamp offset these will all sow the steering. Don't blame the suspension!!
Edited by bass gt3 on Sunday 5th April 00:37
Edited by bass gt3 on Sunday 5th April 00:40
bass gt3 said:
No, his sag figures are incorrect due to erroneous measurement process. Once the correct measurements are taken, then we can determine the sag as to being right or wrong. Don't be guessing!!
No, the R1 doesn't like more sag than most, it's a result of incorrect set up. Sag when right doesn't affect the geometry, don't be propagating urban myths which are baseless.
As for effort to turn, there's many other factors. Shallower rake, heavy wheels, forks pushed through to much, excessive trail due to triple clamp offset these will all sow the steering. Don't blame the suspension!!
Is a fair point ... Guess should confirm how the sag is being measured first before jumping the gun. No, the R1 doesn't like more sag than most, it's a result of incorrect set up. Sag when right doesn't affect the geometry, don't be propagating urban myths which are baseless.
As for effort to turn, there's many other factors. Shallower rake, heavy wheels, forks pushed through to much, excessive trail due to triple clamp offset these will all sow the steering. Don't blame the suspension!!
Edited by bass gt3 on Sunday 5th April 00:37
Edited by bass gt3 on Sunday 5th April 00:40
I ran a little more sag on front end on my R1 based of recommendations... In region of 40-45mm ... Hence my comments.
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