Static Sag v Rider Sag
Discussion
From a very well known UK tuner...
The standard springs are 11Nmm in the front and 116Nmm on the rear, we would say that they are not far off for you at all. The only thing I would say is we don't work to rider say too much because you don't sit in one position while riding the bike, static sag is a better measurement to work to the number you want to see are 25-30mm in the front and 10-15 in the rear.
Interesting...
The standard springs are 11Nmm in the front and 116Nmm on the rear, we would say that they are not far off for you at all. The only thing I would say is we don't work to rider say too much because you don't sit in one position while riding the bike, static sag is a better measurement to work to the number you want to see are 25-30mm in the front and 10-15 in the rear.
Interesting...
bass gt3 said:
Is this on the Blade?? The standard springs are that heavy?? Seriously???????
As for the excuse for not setting rider sag, sorry, that's b
ks. Setting the static sag and then having a 20 stone bloke climb on is going to be a world away from the same bike and a 9 stone rider. fking charlatans!
Give you an idea, I'm 95kginmy gear and I run 10nm springs and they are very stiff, even though the bike is light. The give very little static sag but good dynamic for track only.....
Yep, for the Blade... hence said 'Interesting'... As for the excuse for not setting rider sag, sorry, that's b
ks. Setting the static sag and then having a 20 stone bloke climb on is going to be a world away from the same bike and a 9 stone rider. fking charlatans!Give you an idea, I'm 95kginmy gear and I run 10nm springs and they are very stiff, even though the bike is light. The give very little static sag but good dynamic for track only.....
If I worked to those static sag measurements I would see 35-40mm sag rear, 45-50mm sag front at a rough guess... that's with me on it ... add another 2 stone and you'll be using over 50% of travel just sat on the bike!
I've been a bit naughty and messed about the 'ride height' on the blade... I've raised the rear around 3-4mm and it feels 'better' to me ...
Read the book I bought and it drums in you about 'experimenting' so you can feel the differences. So I'm doing just that...
Wish there was a way of preventing marking of the preload nuts on the forks! - Managed to mark them slightly despite using tape to try and prevent it ...
Considering buying preload adjusters to stick on but look a bit chavvy lol fergus said:
+1
You could get the same static sag with almost any spring weight fitted as long as there is sufficient preload adjustment available!
Which "tuner" was this out of interest? Hopefully not a "suspension specialist"?
... afraid so... You could get the same static sag with almost any spring weight fitted as long as there is sufficient preload adjustment available!
Which "tuner" was this out of interest? Hopefully not a "suspension specialist"?
http://tinyurl.com/3vnzmop
Current front preload setting (8 turns in from 15) just doesn't feel right ... I preferred the bike with more sag at the front as it felt more planted and responsive.
But using 38mm front and with the rear set at 33mm 'should' in theory be close to ideal. In reality it feels too 'hard' on the road which is ironic given reducing the sag shouldn't affect the spring rate but I suspect it does a little.
So I'm thinking of going back to (6 turns in from 15) which felt good and increasing rear sag to 35mm (5th notch of 10) which will keep the bike balanced. Probably increasing the trail slightly but given it's on a 190/50 tyre that is not going to be an issue.
Looking at the range of travel I am using on the front fork I've a lot of travel available at current setting and my thought is you want to use as much as possible without bottoming out the fork so increasing the front sag will not hurt?
But using 38mm front and with the rear set at 33mm 'should' in theory be close to ideal. In reality it feels too 'hard' on the road which is ironic given reducing the sag shouldn't affect the spring rate but I suspect it does a little.
So I'm thinking of going back to (6 turns in from 15) which felt good and increasing rear sag to 35mm (5th notch of 10) which will keep the bike balanced. Probably increasing the trail slightly but given it's on a 190/50 tyre that is not going to be an issue.
Looking at the range of travel I am using on the front fork I've a lot of travel available at current setting and my thought is you want to use as much as possible without bottoming out the fork so increasing the front sag will not hurt?
Biker's Nemesis said:
After all this and you're still not happy?
It's an interesting technical subject John... something I enjoy learning and experimenting about. How have you set your blade up?
... And yes, to answer the question I'm very happy with the changes but definitely prefer more sag at the front, the bike feels 'flighty' at the front with similar sag figures to the rear - this might explain why several suspension specialists run more sag in the front than the rear although I'm still experimenting!
Edited by Mr OCD on Wednesday 8th April 20:21
catso said:
That and there's generally more travel at the front.
Depends on the bike ... The blade for example has front axle travel of 110mm, yet the rear is 138mm ... Using 1/3rds that's 36mm front, 46mm rear ...
One thing I have learnt is despite the sag figures the blade definitely prefers a slightly nose down setup ... It just feels very planted, quick to change direction and improves confidence.
bass gt3 said:
Generally the rear has about 10mm more travel than the front. 110/125 Front to 130-140 rear. 99% sports bikes are in this range.
As for adding sag in the front, remember that you're changing the ride height and rake/trail slightly so it will feel different. It may well feel more flighty as the front end is now slightly higher and the rake is opened up. And adding preload DOES NOT change the spring rate ( we've been through this, I will not repeat myself again
). But what it does is Preload the spring (funny that!!) extending the fork. However, if you add preload, it's a good idea to soften/open the compression slightly to compensate, otherwise it will feel stiffer.
Aye I know. I have been paying attention As for adding sag in the front, remember that you're changing the ride height and rake/trail slightly so it will feel different. It may well feel more flighty as the front end is now slightly higher and the rake is opened up. And adding preload DOES NOT change the spring rate ( we've been through this, I will not repeat myself again
). But what it does is Preload the spring (funny that!!) extending the fork. However, if you add preload, it's a good idea to soften/open the compression slightly to compensate, otherwise it will feel stiffer.Edited by bass gt3 on Thursday 9th April 00:22
Explains why it feels slightly stiffer on the front and the 'flighty' sensation when running more 'Preload / ride height' on the front... I didn't realise I would need to tweak the compression slightly as a result.
I may well stick it back where it was then and try that ...
Even funnier I weighed myself last night and it seems I've lost over 4kg over Winter, so explains why my early experiments of using other peoples settings didn't work
Yazza popped round tonight so did some measuring to see where we are at ...
Front:
Preload: 6 turns from fully out
Compression 2 turns
Rebound 2 1/4 turns
Fork topped out - 124mm
Static - 94mm
Rider - 80mm
Rider sag - 44mm
Rear:
Preload: notch 6
Compression now 2 1/2 turns
Rebound now 2 1/4 turns
Shock topped out - 620mm
Static - 610mm
Rider - 586mm
Rider sag - 34mm
Front:
Preload: 6 turns from fully out
Compression 2 turns
Rebound 2 1/4 turns
Fork topped out - 124mm
Static - 94mm
Rider - 80mm
Rider sag - 44mm
Rear:
Preload: notch 6
Compression now 2 1/2 turns
Rebound now 2 1/4 turns
Shock topped out - 620mm
Static - 610mm
Rider - 586mm
Rider sag - 34mm
bass gt3 said:
Hahaha Happy days.
See what a couple of days learning can do vs getting mugged for 40 quid as time for some chump to twiddle yer knobs!!
Suspension really isn't so hard hey? Once you understand the basics......
Cheers fella ! Appreciate the help Happy days.See what a couple of days learning can do vs getting mugged for 40 quid as time for some chump to twiddle yer knobs!!
Suspension really isn't so hard hey? Once you understand the basics......
Still bit bothered by front sag being 44mm but apparently with top out springs being fitted this is quite common and is not really an issue?
Thoughts?
bass gt3 said:
For road use, your settings are ideal. You've got around 1/3rd of the suspension able to extend into potholes/dips etc, so you're bob on where you need to be.
For a dedicated track bike I'd bring the sag down a fair bit, to around 30/35mm front.
Hopefully Ryan can get his sorted, just needs a methodical approach.....
LMAO! For a dedicated track bike I'd bring the sag down a fair bit, to around 30/35mm front.
Hopefully Ryan can get his sorted, just needs a methodical approach.....
Excellent stuff ... I'm going on track soon so may well play with the sag on front but even at fast road pace I've still a good 30-40mm of travel left so at my track pace I don't think it will be a problem tbh. I have a tie wrap on the fork to keep an eye on travel.
If I do reduce the sag I will drop the forks the equivalent height difference to keep the geometry the same.
It feels epic.
Ryan knows I will help him setup the zx6r if he gets stuck
bass gt3 said:
TBH is would leave he sag alone. Maybe close the comp up a little as you'll be braking harder than you do on the road. And keep an eye on your tyres for tell tales indicating rebound needing a tweek.
But if the bike is well set up, it'll ride well on track, especially if you're using road biased tyres. If you were going to slicks, then yes, you'd stiffen up a bit. But if the suspension is working, you'll be getting great grip from the tyres and the whole bike will be working well.
I'm fitting a full set of Penske Gas forks and rear shock to a ZX10 racer next week, and upgrading 2 S1K's t full K-Tech's. Should be fun getting them all set up....
Ok fella ... Will do, I must resist fiddling any further lol.But if the bike is well set up, it'll ride well on track, especially if you're using road biased tyres. If you were going to slicks, then yes, you'd stiffen up a bit. But if the suspension is working, you'll be getting great grip from the tyres and the whole bike will be working well.
I'm fitting a full set of Penske Gas forks and rear shock to a ZX10 racer next week, and upgrading 2 S1K's t full K-Tech's. Should be fun getting them all set up....
Comp screws 1/2 turn for track?
Sounds like fun ... But like you say it's simple once you've worked the basics out eh?
bass gt3 said:
Try half a turn but keep an eye on your tell tale. If you've still got the bump stops fitted, it shouldn't go any lower than about 15mm from the bottom of the fork slider.
But resist the urge to make the bike super stiff. Good traction comes from allowing the suspension to work. So a bit of shimmy is ok rather than ultra stable and controlled but with poor traction.
Great minds think alike But resist the urge to make the bike super stiff. Good traction comes from allowing the suspension to work. So a bit of shimmy is ok rather than ultra stable and controlled but with poor traction.
... Agreed, I've learnt the error of my ways making a bike overly stiff ... I'm going to keep it controlled and refined to let the suspension work properly within its designed range.
bass gt3 said:
What are you getting?
I've got the Showa twin tube shock from the 2012 > blade coming... It's a good upgrade over the 08-11 shock but obviously still not as good as an aftermarket ohlins, etc. But I am led to believe it uses similar technology to the Ohlins TTX?
Either way it was a bargain buy so couldn't say no...
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