Best tourer for under £4000
Discussion
Good afternoon,
I sold my Blackbird last year after 4 happy years and wish to get a new bike for touring predominantly.
The Blackbird was an awesome machine in terms of reliability, build quality and all round package but, for me, it was not massively comfy.
I enjoyed a week with an FJR 1300 and V Strom 1000 but have been looking at ST1300 with a private example from 2003 with 16k up for £4000. I know they have a great following but would it be more sensible to get something like a Bandit 1250 / CBF1000 that is much newer for the same cash?
My Blackbird was a 2001 vintage and immaculate so not worried about age particularly.
I sold my Blackbird last year after 4 happy years and wish to get a new bike for touring predominantly.
The Blackbird was an awesome machine in terms of reliability, build quality and all round package but, for me, it was not massively comfy.
I enjoyed a week with an FJR 1300 and V Strom 1000 but have been looking at ST1300 with a private example from 2003 with 16k up for £4000. I know they have a great following but would it be more sensible to get something like a Bandit 1250 / CBF1000 that is much newer for the same cash?
My Blackbird was a 2001 vintage and immaculate so not worried about age particularly.
I had a bird for 7 years and loved it but sold it for the same reasons, as I got older it became more uncomfortable. I bought a tdm 900 as I was about to do a lot of commuting and it did that very well but I missed the power of the bird. I bought a 58 plate bandit 1250 last October and I really like it. It is more forward leaning than the tdm but much more upright than the bird. But it has the low grunt of the bird, the peak torque is the same as the bird but is at 37oo revs which is lower down the rev range than the bird, so it goes well in any gear and has a similar feeling of go as the bird but doesn't have the top end speed which suits me fine and it is a very nice engine. The build quality is not as good as the bird and I haven't toured on it yet but will find out how it is in June when I go the south of France.I don't think I will have any problems and it has been comfortable so far and It feels a similar weight to the bird as well so it's quite easy to push around. I did consider a cbf but the bandit came along at a very good price so I got that and they seemed very similar to each other on paper..
Thank you for the replies.
I would want hard luggage as I had a soft Oxford set on the Blackbird which was fine but hard luggage is more practicle on tour. I have always been a Honda man but the Suzuki 1250 does look like a good package.
I think the 2006 onwards VFR 800 looks great, especially in the burgandy colour, but trying to find a good one is hard work.
I would want hard luggage as I had a soft Oxford set on the Blackbird which was fine but hard luggage is more practicle on tour. I have always been a Honda man but the Suzuki 1250 does look like a good package.
I think the 2006 onwards VFR 800 looks great, especially in the burgandy colour, but trying to find a good one is hard work.
I would think you could get a younger ST1300 for £4K than a 2003 model. I paid £5K for my 2003 in 2006 and £6K for my 2005 in 2010.
There was a high-mileage one sold on the 'Bay a couple of weeks back for £1800 although it was a 100K mile bike.
Most I've seen for sale tend to average 4000 miles a year (mine passed 40K last weekend and it was 10 years old in February) but of course mileage is no object to that monster engine. I had a 100K-mile ST1100 before I got into the 1300 and it ran like a sewing machine; I've seen plenty of reports (especially from US riders) of ST13s going way past 100K without issue. Insurance is cheap for me: fully-comp with a 4999 mile limit and protected NCD cost me £89 for the current policy (with Hastings Direct).
The ST13 is an acquired taste though: one ride and you may be glad to get off, but it's a much better handling bike than many people realise (call it Skoda syndrome, criticism without experience
), you just have to have the confidence to chuck it into corners and let it find a way round. I know some people feel the need to be able to see the front wheel (dunno why, I tend to look at the road ahead not the bike I'm riding) but, rather like a car where you can't see the wheels and you still get round the corners, it's not a problem.
Not much adjustment in the suspension department: rear spring preload and rebound damping is your lot. Mine gets through a lot of rear pads but then I do most of my braking on the pedal. The rear pads are the same as the front but a bit thicker; you can fit the front type but they wear out faster, funny that
- most mail-order suppliers don't seem to know that there's a different part number for the rear pads and will happily send you three sets of front ones.
The widest part of the bike is across the mirror pods; if they'll fit through a gap the rest of the bike will follow (unlike many bikes with aftermarket hard luggage where the panniers become the restriction). The main problem is that the bike's mirrors are at about the same height as a lot of car mirrors, unlike the stalk-mounted ones elsewhere. Lack of engine vibes does make for a clear rear-view though.
Speaking of the engine, there's a lot of it but not becessarily as much power as it 'ought' to make from such a big motor; about 115 to 118 BHP/PS depending on what you read. However the torque curve is flatter than Lincolnshire from about 2000rpm; you can pull away in 2nd and short-shift into 5th. There's no powerband as such, the torque just keeps on going in each gear. It makes a whine similar to a gas turbine but there's little other clue to the presence of an engine: if you like characterful exhaust noises and ball-tingling vibrations then you'll be disappointed. Mine averages about 44MPG across all my riding, it's reasonably easy to get over 320 miles from a tankful (all 29 Litres of it) but spirited hooning will see 80 miles knocked off that
The sit-up riding position can also be a pain (or pains depending on the state of your corpse). You often see bar raisers fitted which make it better or worse depending on your stature I guess; my second ST13 came with them fitted and I didn't like them at first but have left them on and adapted. I don't like the standard seat either, mine has an Airhawk set into it now. I might be middle-aged but I still have an ar53 that gay men would kill for
Most servicing work can be carried out without removing any major plastics: oil filter, air filter, sparkplugs, bevel box filler, brake pads, oil filler and sight glass all easy to get at (just have to hinge the tank up for the air filter). Tyre choice is important: the original Bridgestone Excretas need binning and some decent rubber fitting. I'm firmly in the Michelin Pilot Road camp - got a PR3 on the front and a Pilot Power on the back as it was all I could get in Austria on a Saturday afternoon once I'd done this to the previous PR2 chasing my mates around the Alps last September...
I corner harder to the left - ground clearance is the main issue in the twisties but you get plenty of warning before anything expensive touches down.
What you want is some old ditherer of a bloke selling his owned-from-new bike
; keep clear of ex-Police bikes because although you may get it relatively cheap, the guy you sell it to will want it cheap as well and despite the myths, service bikes aren't necessarily that well treated or looked after - and most Forces decommissioned STs years ago so God knows where they've been since then. Black ones are rare but gorgeous and the earlier silver has a hint of gold that the later silver doesn't. Green ones not popular. Try and get one with topbox fitted as even a second-hand one could sting you over £100 - if you can find one in the right colour. You can get tailored bags to fit topbox and panniers but don't go for the Honda genuine ones as they only have enough space for a dirty weekend in Ashbourne with your secretary; aftermarket ones are good for a fortnight two-up in the south of France/ Spain/ Italy with room to spare for some decent cognac on the way back. You could even fit a carrier to the topbox so you can keep your waterproofs handy and give your pillion somewhere to rest her head while she catches 40 winks before another mammoth shagging session in a Mercure somewhere south of Paris
In short: buy one. Run it for a season and if you don't like it there'll be a queue at your door to take it away and you probably won't lose a penny!
There was a high-mileage one sold on the 'Bay a couple of weeks back for £1800 although it was a 100K mile bike.
Most I've seen for sale tend to average 4000 miles a year (mine passed 40K last weekend and it was 10 years old in February) but of course mileage is no object to that monster engine. I had a 100K-mile ST1100 before I got into the 1300 and it ran like a sewing machine; I've seen plenty of reports (especially from US riders) of ST13s going way past 100K without issue. Insurance is cheap for me: fully-comp with a 4999 mile limit and protected NCD cost me £89 for the current policy (with Hastings Direct).
The ST13 is an acquired taste though: one ride and you may be glad to get off, but it's a much better handling bike than many people realise (call it Skoda syndrome, criticism without experience
), you just have to have the confidence to chuck it into corners and let it find a way round. I know some people feel the need to be able to see the front wheel (dunno why, I tend to look at the road ahead not the bike I'm riding) but, rather like a car where you can't see the wheels and you still get round the corners, it's not a problem.Not much adjustment in the suspension department: rear spring preload and rebound damping is your lot. Mine gets through a lot of rear pads but then I do most of my braking on the pedal. The rear pads are the same as the front but a bit thicker; you can fit the front type but they wear out faster, funny that
- most mail-order suppliers don't seem to know that there's a different part number for the rear pads and will happily send you three sets of front ones.The widest part of the bike is across the mirror pods; if they'll fit through a gap the rest of the bike will follow (unlike many bikes with aftermarket hard luggage where the panniers become the restriction). The main problem is that the bike's mirrors are at about the same height as a lot of car mirrors, unlike the stalk-mounted ones elsewhere. Lack of engine vibes does make for a clear rear-view though.
Speaking of the engine, there's a lot of it but not becessarily as much power as it 'ought' to make from such a big motor; about 115 to 118 BHP/PS depending on what you read. However the torque curve is flatter than Lincolnshire from about 2000rpm; you can pull away in 2nd and short-shift into 5th. There's no powerband as such, the torque just keeps on going in each gear. It makes a whine similar to a gas turbine but there's little other clue to the presence of an engine: if you like characterful exhaust noises and ball-tingling vibrations then you'll be disappointed. Mine averages about 44MPG across all my riding, it's reasonably easy to get over 320 miles from a tankful (all 29 Litres of it) but spirited hooning will see 80 miles knocked off that
The sit-up riding position can also be a pain (or pains depending on the state of your corpse). You often see bar raisers fitted which make it better or worse depending on your stature I guess; my second ST13 came with them fitted and I didn't like them at first but have left them on and adapted. I don't like the standard seat either, mine has an Airhawk set into it now. I might be middle-aged but I still have an ar53 that gay men would kill for
Most servicing work can be carried out without removing any major plastics: oil filter, air filter, sparkplugs, bevel box filler, brake pads, oil filler and sight glass all easy to get at (just have to hinge the tank up for the air filter). Tyre choice is important: the original Bridgestone Excretas need binning and some decent rubber fitting. I'm firmly in the Michelin Pilot Road camp - got a PR3 on the front and a Pilot Power on the back as it was all I could get in Austria on a Saturday afternoon once I'd done this to the previous PR2 chasing my mates around the Alps last September...
I corner harder to the left
- ground clearance is the main issue in the twisties but you get plenty of warning before anything expensive touches down.What you want is some old ditherer of a bloke selling his owned-from-new bike
; keep clear of ex-Police bikes because although you may get it relatively cheap, the guy you sell it to will want it cheap as well and despite the myths, service bikes aren't necessarily that well treated or looked after - and most Forces decommissioned STs years ago so God knows where they've been since then. Black ones are rare but gorgeous and the earlier silver has a hint of gold that the later silver doesn't. Green ones not popular. Try and get one with topbox fitted as even a second-hand one could sting you over £100 - if you can find one in the right colour. You can get tailored bags to fit topbox and panniers but don't go for the Honda genuine ones as they only have enough space for a dirty weekend in Ashbourne with your secretary; aftermarket ones are good for a fortnight two-up in the south of France/ Spain/ Italy with room to spare for some decent cognac on the way back. You could even fit a carrier to the topbox so you can keep your waterproofs handy and give your pillion somewhere to rest her head while she catches 40 winks before another mammoth shagging session in a Mercure somewhere south of Paris In short: buy one. Run it for a season and if you don't like it there'll be a queue at your door to take it away and you probably won't lose a penny!
Edited by Wedg1e on Friday 17th April 01:22
What a fantastic write up - thank you for taking the time to construct this comprehensive account.
A couple of things surprised me or at least made me raise an eyebrow. The seat being uncomfortable is the same issue as the Blackbird and typical Honda! I was going to get an Airhawk so that seems the way ahead here. The riding position is interesting as I always thought the Pan would just be "right" in a similar vein to the VFR but it depends, as you rightly pointed out, that it depends on your build but also your reference point; I have come from Fireblades etc so it should be good.
I am actually looking for a more clynical ride as long as it is smooth, quiet and offers good protection so I can enjoy the ride. The V Strom, although a capable bike, had the worst screen in the world and it was terrible to ride as a result (loud, buffeting etc). I was having some earplug issues but I have a Schuberth C3 so a quiet lid but obviously not compatible. We ended up removing the screen totally and my mate on his R1200RT carried it back!
This is the bike in question (it is green!):
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
A couple of things surprised me or at least made me raise an eyebrow. The seat being uncomfortable is the same issue as the Blackbird and typical Honda! I was going to get an Airhawk so that seems the way ahead here. The riding position is interesting as I always thought the Pan would just be "right" in a similar vein to the VFR but it depends, as you rightly pointed out, that it depends on your build but also your reference point; I have come from Fireblades etc so it should be good.
I am actually looking for a more clynical ride as long as it is smooth, quiet and offers good protection so I can enjoy the ride. The V Strom, although a capable bike, had the worst screen in the world and it was terrible to ride as a result (loud, buffeting etc). I was having some earplug issues but I have a Schuberth C3 so a quiet lid but obviously not compatible. We ended up removing the screen totally and my mate on his R1200RT carried it back!
This is the bike in question (it is green!):
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
junglie said:
Thank you for the replies.
I would want hard luggage as I had a soft Oxford set on the Blackbird which was fine but hard luggage is more practicle on tour. I have always been a Honda man but the Suzuki 1250 does look like a good package.
I think the 2006 onwards VFR 800 looks great, especially in the burgandy colour, but trying to find a good one is hard work.
As a blackbird owner speaking to an ex one.. the VFRs are really slack in terms of power/torque - you would have to work it comparatively hard to make similar progress LOL Def more comfortable riding position than the blackbird though. BTW I used 28mm bar risers on my blackbird as the standard riding position is very odd as you of course already know.I would want hard luggage as I had a soft Oxford set on the Blackbird which was fine but hard luggage is more practicle on tour. I have always been a Honda man but the Suzuki 1250 does look like a good package.
I think the 2006 onwards VFR 800 looks great, especially in the burgandy colour, but trying to find a good one is hard work.
Have you considered a Sprint ST 1050? Mate had one they are fantastic bikes very comfortable riding position like an armchair compared to my blackbird and the triple engine for a road bike is for me almost perfect.
Here's my Tourer which you can find for under 4k, albeit it's more 'adventure tourer' if that moves you...
Aprilia Caponord ETV
100bhp Rotax litre V-twin. You'd probably want a 32in+ inside leg for one of these though otherwise you'd probably be inspecting the floor regularly sub 5mph!
Aprilia Caponord ETV
100bhp Rotax litre V-twin. You'd probably want a 32in+ inside leg for one of these though otherwise you'd probably be inspecting the floor regularly sub 5mph!
junglie said:
I think the 2006 onwards VFR 800 looks great, especially in the burgandy colour, but trying to find a good one is hard work.
I had one of these which I really struggled to sell 5 years or so ago (someone ended up getting a bargain as I had to let it go for a song) - it was a great bike, but as noted above, the performance when fully loaded was a reason why many on the owners forum upgraded to the K1200.I never rode 2 up and was never bothered by any performance deficiencies, but I guess coming from a Blackbird you would be - I "upgraded" to a K13GT which turned out not to be quite as comfortable as I expected, albeit ludicrously quick in a straight line for such a big bike.
Disappointing to hear good used VTECs are difficult to find as I was keen to go back to one soon as I hardly the K nowadays (not a reflection on the bike).
Before buying the K GT I tested a Pan, FJR, and BMW RT and much preferred the Yamaha out of the these as it was closest to the VFR in handling.
I'm afraid I have become "lazy" with having almost twist and go bikes and would rather not go back - when I get another sporty 600 I shall have plenty of time for gear lever tapdancing and right hand double twists!
I have long enough legs for an off roader but never thought of an Aprillia. How are they for reliability?
I have long enough legs for an off roader but never thought of an Aprillia. How are they for reliability?
Are you going to be touring solo or with a pillion?
I've got a 2007 Triumph Tiger 1050, which I fitted racks and Givi boxes to. I've been the length of Scandinavia (bottom of Denmark to the arctic circle in Finland). It's got a great "upright" riding position. I'm 5' 11" and it had already been lowered when I bought it. I can get both feet flat on the ground.
The seat isn't super comfy but with a realistic touring tank range of about 150 miles, it shouldn't be an issue. If you went for a Tiger, I'd recommend an aftermarket/taller screen.
The lights aren't great, but I only tend to ride in the day on holiday anyway.
I've got a 2007 Triumph Tiger 1050, which I fitted racks and Givi boxes to. I've been the length of Scandinavia (bottom of Denmark to the arctic circle in Finland). It's got a great "upright" riding position. I'm 5' 11" and it had already been lowered when I bought it. I can get both feet flat on the ground.
The seat isn't super comfy but with a realistic touring tank range of about 150 miles, it shouldn't be an issue. If you went for a Tiger, I'd recommend an aftermarket/taller screen.
The lights aren't great, but I only tend to ride in the day on holiday anyway.
The Aprilia is superb for reliability, excellent owners forum too
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.ph...
There are a couple of mandatory mods to guarantee reliability, these are the common achilles heel, namely fit a mosfet rectifier, eliminate a couple of factory connectors to the rectifier and fit metal fuel quick disconnects in lieu of plastic. Aprilia actually sell an updated fuel line for the latter. Once done there aren't any other reliability issues, engines and boxes are bullet proof.
Some of the guys on the club have racked up high miles, over 100k no real issues. It's the same engine as the Tuono and Mille 1000cc V-twins (as used by Can Am also in their quads and spyders and various microlite companies) so well tried and tested although detuned to approx 100bhp so plenty of safety, its also a lot more civilized in terms of power delivery than the RSV's, (I also have a Tuono) while retaining the V-Twin character and trademark torque. Not had any issues with mine, handling is very good on the later MK2 ABS models 2005/6 ish which have stiffer fork springs and abs. The earlier models can be easily upgraded. Most of the owners are pretty enamoured with them. They can 'feel' top heavy (although book weight is 215kg) at walking pace as the tank etc is high (hence my comment on leg length, (can be difficult to handle for those on tippy toes), but once rolling its not an issue at all.
They can take loads of weight (and very comfy for pillion) and remain incredibly stable at all speeds. I'm really pleased with it. Always had a soft spot for this genre bike and the longer travel suspension means you can tackle pot holed roads and tracks etc no issues.
The owners arrange various touring weekends throughout the year, Wales is next week in fact so great camaraderie.
Cheers
Nito
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.ph...
There are a couple of mandatory mods to guarantee reliability, these are the common achilles heel, namely fit a mosfet rectifier, eliminate a couple of factory connectors to the rectifier and fit metal fuel quick disconnects in lieu of plastic. Aprilia actually sell an updated fuel line for the latter. Once done there aren't any other reliability issues, engines and boxes are bullet proof.
Some of the guys on the club have racked up high miles, over 100k no real issues. It's the same engine as the Tuono and Mille 1000cc V-twins (as used by Can Am also in their quads and spyders and various microlite companies) so well tried and tested although detuned to approx 100bhp so plenty of safety, its also a lot more civilized in terms of power delivery than the RSV's, (I also have a Tuono) while retaining the V-Twin character and trademark torque. Not had any issues with mine, handling is very good on the later MK2 ABS models 2005/6 ish which have stiffer fork springs and abs. The earlier models can be easily upgraded. Most of the owners are pretty enamoured with them. They can 'feel' top heavy (although book weight is 215kg) at walking pace as the tank etc is high (hence my comment on leg length, (can be difficult to handle for those on tippy toes), but once rolling its not an issue at all.
They can take loads of weight (and very comfy for pillion) and remain incredibly stable at all speeds. I'm really pleased with it. Always had a soft spot for this genre bike and the longer travel suspension means you can tackle pot holed roads and tracks etc no issues.
The owners arrange various touring weekends throughout the year, Wales is next week in fact so great camaraderie.
Cheers
Nito
junglie said:
I'm afraid I have become "lazy" with having almost twist and go bikes and would rather not go back - when I get another sporty 600 I shall have plenty of time for gear lever tapdancing and right hand double twists!
I have long enough legs for an off roader but never thought of an Aprillia. How are they for reliability?
I would have thought from what you've said, whatever you're going to get is going to need a big engine, especially if taking a load of touring gear and a passenger. A VFR short of the VFR1200 probably won't cut it, and the VFR1200 won't be had for under £4000. Echoing Wedg1e's post, a Pan Euro is surely the ideal bike for the job, the ultimate utility tourer. You probably wouldn't take one out for a thrash for thrashing's sake, but if you're getting a sports bike too then why get a compromised sport tourer - get two bikes that excel in their respective fields.I have long enough legs for an off roader but never thought of an Aprillia. How are they for reliability?
That said, you may be able to get a Yamaha FJR1300 for around your price range, or a BMW K1200GT for something a bit different.
I have kept most of my Bike / Ride mags from 10+ years ago and the K1200 did not get the best reviews but that could be based on what it was against rather than the bike in isolation.
I had an FJR 1300 in 2008 forba week in The Netherlands with the wife and it was a great bike. To clarify, all of my riding will be solo as my wife has hung up her leathers for a while now we have kids (so have I to a degree) so the bike will be used for an annual juant to the continent as well as on nice days.
You could argue that any bike will do that but I like to have the right tool fir the job!
I had an FJR 1300 in 2008 forba week in The Netherlands with the wife and it was a great bike. To clarify, all of my riding will be solo as my wife has hung up her leathers for a while now we have kids (so have I to a degree) so the bike will be used for an annual juant to the continent as well as on nice days.
You could argue that any bike will do that but I like to have the right tool fir the job!
Mastodon2 said:
...a Pan Euro is surely the ideal bike for the job, the ultimate utility tourer. You probably wouldn't take one out for a thrash for thrashing's sake...
But if the only bike you have is a Pan Euro and you're in the mood for a thrash it wouldn't be the big disappointment many think 
. The FJR13 would be faster of course... when 'Bike' did a big tourers test a few years ago they pitted a Pan Euro 1300 against an FJR and two BMWs and one of the BMWs 'won' (there was a suspicious amount of BMW adverts in the mag that month ) - the FJR was voted second overall and the Pan third... the only way to be sure is, of course, to test-ride any bikes that appeal. I guess the difficulty with used bikes is finding someone who'll let you take their pride and joy (or shop stock) for a spin.junglie said:
I have kept most of my Bike / Ride mags from 10+ years ago and the K1200 did not get the best reviews but that could be based on what it was against rather than the bike in isolation.
I had an FJR 1300 in 2008 forba week in The Netherlands with the wife and it was a great bike. To clarify, all of my riding will be solo as my wife has hung up her leathers for a while now we have kids (so have I to a degree) so the bike will be used for an annual juant to the continent as well as on nice days.
You could argue that any bike will do that but I like to have the right tool fir the job!
... and yet, the K1200S is the bike that has been used most on all the Old Gits trips. I had an FJR 1300 in 2008 forba week in The Netherlands with the wife and it was a great bike. To clarify, all of my riding will be solo as my wife has hung up her leathers for a while now we have kids (so have I to a degree) so the bike will be used for an annual juant to the continent as well as on nice days.
You could argue that any bike will do that but I like to have the right tool fir the job!
junglie said:
It could be an absolute gem 
and the ST is a lot of bike for £4K... I guess if you were selling a mint bike you'd want top dollar so you can't blame him for trying. If you could wangle £500 or so off that it'd be a steal.Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff