Ssupnsion et up ? Yay or Nay ?
Discussion
fergus said:
Prof Prolapse said:
I similarly have no idea how anyone but a rider can effectively set up a bike beyond preload. If they get it right then it's really more luck than skill. I dare say the placebo effect must be a factor as well.
Given the tyres are effectively one of the suspension components, if the springs/damper part of the equation aren't performing optimally, the tyres will then have to deal with everything else. By assessing the wear patterns on the tyre, the damping can often be fine tuned. The skill of a decent suspension tech is also in translating the behaviour of the bike as described by the rider into the most appropriate change to make to the bike's setup, depending upon the riders' desired outcome.
My point was more aimed at if I rock up to a suspension set up specialist, he makes changes based on my vague explanations, changes multiple items at once and sends me on my way, there really is no way it can be considered a bespoke set up. Even if I come back and say "the front end feels wooly", given the interplay of settings, he can take an educated stab at it, but its not isolating the effect of each change, so he cannot be certain, which would seem the whole purpose of the exercise. It becomes an art and not a science. Now regardless of any technical knowledge of suspension that has to be true.
Obviously, what I'm not arguing (and should have caveated), is that only a rider can personally set up his bike outright. This is self-evidently not the case, but it just seems to me as a layman, you can't just ask some bloke to change settings based on vague descriptions.
Prof Prolapse said:
I think I was over generalising again, but I meant more how someone who does not understand how suspension works (like most people including myself) could sufficiently communicate the issues. I appreciate tyres could help with some gaps in communication, if you get the obvious patterns, but I am very skeptical they compensate for it, or that they are sensitive enough to be used for minute changes. Especially on a road bike tyres where the stresses will not be so easy to see.
My point was more aimed at if I rock up to a suspension set up specialist, he makes changes based on my vague explanations, changes multiple items at once and sends me on my way, there really is no way it can be considered a bespoke set up. Even if I come back and say "the front end feels wooly", given the interplay of settings, he can take an educated stab at it, but its not isolating the effect of each change, so he cannot be certain, which would seem the whole purpose of the exercise. It becomes an art and not a science. Now regardless of any technical knowledge of suspension that has to be true.
Obviously, what I'm not arguing (and should have caveated), is that only a rider can personally set up his bike outright. This is self-evidently not the case, but it just seems to me as a layman, you can't just ask some bloke to change settings based on vague descriptions.
Thing is, regardless of knob twiddling, tyre patterns or the such, there are some fundamental basics to suspension which should be observed.My point was more aimed at if I rock up to a suspension set up specialist, he makes changes based on my vague explanations, changes multiple items at once and sends me on my way, there really is no way it can be considered a bespoke set up. Even if I come back and say "the front end feels wooly", given the interplay of settings, he can take an educated stab at it, but its not isolating the effect of each change, so he cannot be certain, which would seem the whole purpose of the exercise. It becomes an art and not a science. Now regardless of any technical knowledge of suspension that has to be true.
Obviously, what I'm not arguing (and should have caveated), is that only a rider can personally set up his bike outright. This is self-evidently not the case, but it just seems to me as a layman, you can't just ask some bloke to change settings based on vague descriptions.
The most important of these are the front and rear sag values. Manufacturers equip bikes with a midrange spring value, one that they expect to cover the greatest number of riders. If you are outside these values, you need to look at getting the correct springs for your weight.
Supposing you are in the target range, you still need to set up the preload to achieve the correct sag range. Without this, everything else is a fudge. And it's important to remember ant value here is rider sag, not static. Static is a pretty meaningless number as it's based on the bike sitting on its springs without you on-board.
Once you've dialled in the correct sag, about 40mm in the front and 35 in the rear for a road bike, you can set the compression and rebound. Rebound is simple. It needs to be as FAST as possible without allowing the suspension to oscillate. Compression can be set somewhat to a riders preference, as it controls the speed of compression, such as the initial dip when the brakes are applied.
The important part to remember is that each of the 5 basic components of suspension, Sag, Preload, Compression, Rebound, Air Gap all have separate and distinct functions. You cannot compensate for soft springs by either closing the compression or reducing the air gap. Likewise, adding preload doesn't make the springs harder, so if you're outside the normal range, change springs rather than just winding in more preload.
It's really not difficult if you just pay attention to the fundamentals
There was a great article in BIKE a few years ago, ill try and dig it out for Sunday. Basically a journo, and an experienced rider got the guy from ohlins in.
He adjusted it based on what the rider said, each time noting his feedback against what the ohlins boy said should happen with the changes.
it was a cracking read. He was so far off a lot of the time. I guess id be the same. Id love to be a fly on the wall when Rossi and Marquez come in from qualifying or FP and the ohlins boys race to them. I wonder if they describe it just as s
t as I would. I see loads of arms in the air and screwing up of the face, and shocked eyes. id love to here Rossi say "its fking pish man, every time I go to tip in im like fk, this feels like im on wooden tyres" in an Italian accent.
He adjusted it based on what the rider said, each time noting his feedback against what the ohlins boy said should happen with the changes.
it was a cracking read. He was so far off a lot of the time. I guess id be the same. Id love to be a fly on the wall when Rossi and Marquez come in from qualifying or FP and the ohlins boys race to them. I wonder if they describe it just as s
t as I would. I see loads of arms in the air and screwing up of the face, and shocked eyes. id love to here Rossi say "its fking pish man, every time I go to tip in im like fk, this feels like im on wooden tyres" in an Italian accent. bass gt3 said:
Prof Prolapse said:
I think I was over generalising again, but I meant more how someone who does not understand how suspension works (like most people including myself) could sufficiently communicate the issues. I appreciate tyres could help with some gaps in communication, if you get the obvious patterns, but I am very skeptical they compensate for it, or that they are sensitive enough to be used for minute changes. Especially on a road bike tyres where the stresses will not be so easy to see.
My point was more aimed at if I rock up to a suspension set up specialist, he makes changes based on my vague explanations, changes multiple items at once and sends me on my way, there really is no way it can be considered a bespoke set up. Even if I come back and say "the front end feels wooly", given the interplay of settings, he can take an educated stab at it, but its not isolating the effect of each change, so he cannot be certain, which would seem the whole purpose of the exercise. It becomes an art and not a science. Now regardless of any technical knowledge of suspension that has to be true.
Obviously, what I'm not arguing (and should have caveated), is that only a rider can personally set up his bike outright. This is self-evidently not the case, but it just seems to me as a layman, you can't just ask some bloke to change settings based on vague descriptions.
Thing is, regardless of knob twiddling, tyre patterns or the such, there are some fundamental basics to suspension which should be observed.My point was more aimed at if I rock up to a suspension set up specialist, he makes changes based on my vague explanations, changes multiple items at once and sends me on my way, there really is no way it can be considered a bespoke set up. Even if I come back and say "the front end feels wooly", given the interplay of settings, he can take an educated stab at it, but its not isolating the effect of each change, so he cannot be certain, which would seem the whole purpose of the exercise. It becomes an art and not a science. Now regardless of any technical knowledge of suspension that has to be true.
Obviously, what I'm not arguing (and should have caveated), is that only a rider can personally set up his bike outright. This is self-evidently not the case, but it just seems to me as a layman, you can't just ask some bloke to change settings based on vague descriptions.
The most important of these are the front and rear sag values. Manufacturers equip bikes with a midrange spring value, one that they expect to cover the greatest number of riders. If you are outside these values, you need to look at getting the correct springs for your weight.
Supposing you are in the target range, you still need to set up the preload to achieve the correct sag range. Without this, everything else is a fudge. And it's important to remember ant value here is rider sag, not static. Static is a pretty meaningless number as it's based on the bike sitting on its springs without you on-board.
Once you've dialled in the correct sag, about 40mm in the front and 35 in the rear for a road bike, you can set the compression and rebound. Rebound is simple. It needs to be as FAST as possible without allowing the suspension to oscillate. Compression can be set somewhat to a riders preference, as it controls the speed of compression, such as the initial dip when the brakes are applied.
The important part to remember is that each of the 5 basic components of suspension, Sag, Preload, Compression, Rebound, Air Gap all have separate and distinct functions. You cannot compensate for soft springs by either closing the compression or reducing the air gap. Likewise, adding preload doesn't make the springs harder, so if you're outside the normal range, change springs rather than just winding in more preload.
It's really not difficult if you just pay attention to the fundamentals
moanthebairns said:
What he said.
But may I ask who do you trust. A manufacturer who has flung considerable money at it and knows the suspension or a guy in a shed. For the road anyway. The likelihood the settings won't be that far off manufacturers like in my case.
I'm really opening myself up to looking a tBut may I ask who do you trust. A manufacturer who has flung considerable money at it and knows the suspension or a guy in a shed. For the road anyway. The likelihood the settings won't be that far off manufacturers like in my case.
t here as I don't know that much and I'm only basing it on a weeks reading, but I what I do think is you're underestimating how much is preference. After all if it was so simple why wouldn't everyone just use standard settings tailored by weight?Say I adjust my pre-load, I can do this in two ways, by turning the top of the forks, or by lowering/raising the bike. Same for the rear but I'll need shims.
Regardless of how I do it, this alters the geometry and rake of the bike. This makes a trade off between stability or quick turning. Now too much of either is obviously objective crap, but there's a large spectrum in between, some people would rather have stability for example rather than have to fight on the straights. That's not in your manual. That's preference.
The second is that even when you adjust your chain, or change tyres or lose/gain weight, the geometry is again altered. Now unless your manual is pretty bloody big, it doesn't compensate for this.
Small changes yes. Too small to notice? Well drop a few mm on your front shocks to mimic an old chain and report back. I'm guessing you'll feel it.
I'm happy to be proven wrong and argue the point though, I'm just learning it myself, but so far this makes far more sense to me than a lot of what I hear/read.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Friday 17th April 12:21
moanthebairns said:
that was very well explained as was your advice when I asked this same question 3 years ago. I should have listened to you more in detail at the time instead of expecting "suspension setups" to find that wow factor everyone goes on about, "its a new bike", "best £40 I've ever spent" I got suckered in by it all thinking it was just me doing it wrong and I was massively let down. I'm outwith the mean, I need to buy the right springs.
What do you weigh Alex?? Are you struggling with your road or track bike??
bass gt3 said:
Thing is, regardless of knob twiddling, tyre patterns or the such, there are some fundamental basics to suspension which should be observed.
The most important of these are the front and rear sag values. Manufacturers equip bikes with a midrange spring value, one that they expect to cover the greatest number of riders. If you are outside these values, you need to look at getting the correct springs for your weight.
Supposing you are in the target range, you still need to set up the preload to achieve the correct sag range. Without this, everything else is a fudge. And it's important to remember ant value here is rider sag, not static. Static is a pretty meaningless number as it's based on the bike sitting on its springs without you on-board.
Once you've dialled in the correct sag, about 40mm in the front and 35 in the rear for a road bike, you can set the compression and rebound. Rebound is simple. It needs to be as FAST as possible without allowing the suspension to oscillate. Compression can be set somewhat to a riders preference, as it controls the speed of compression, such as the initial dip when the brakes are applied.
The important part to remember is that each of the 5 basic components of suspension, Sag, Preload, Compression, Rebound, Air Gap all have separate and distinct functions. You cannot compensate for soft springs by either closing the compression or reducing the air gap. Likewise, adding preload doesn't make the springs harder, so if you're outside the normal range, change springs rather than just winding in more preload.
It's really not difficult if you just pay attention to the fundamentals
I can't tell if I've explained myself badly and you're disagreeing with me. The most important of these are the front and rear sag values. Manufacturers equip bikes with a midrange spring value, one that they expect to cover the greatest number of riders. If you are outside these values, you need to look at getting the correct springs for your weight.
Supposing you are in the target range, you still need to set up the preload to achieve the correct sag range. Without this, everything else is a fudge. And it's important to remember ant value here is rider sag, not static. Static is a pretty meaningless number as it's based on the bike sitting on its springs without you on-board.
Once you've dialled in the correct sag, about 40mm in the front and 35 in the rear for a road bike, you can set the compression and rebound. Rebound is simple. It needs to be as FAST as possible without allowing the suspension to oscillate. Compression can be set somewhat to a riders preference, as it controls the speed of compression, such as the initial dip when the brakes are applied.
The important part to remember is that each of the 5 basic components of suspension, Sag, Preload, Compression, Rebound, Air Gap all have separate and distinct functions. You cannot compensate for soft springs by either closing the compression or reducing the air gap. Likewise, adding preload doesn't make the springs harder, so if you're outside the normal range, change springs rather than just winding in more preload.
It's really not difficult if you just pay attention to the fundamentals
Yeah I'm getting there mate, it's not hard but there is a far bit of it, I read this as well spring rates cannot be altered and you have basically to find the effective operating range, and about the "stiction" needing to be compensated for. I've to do this on Saturday if I can find someone to help hold the bike. There's a lot I read about geometry as well, I thought that helped me understand the effects of adjusting pre-load beyond effectively tensioning the spring.
Still reading the basics of damping at the moment, slow and fast etc. but remembered your point from previous about rebound so will bear in mind thanks. In terms of adjusting damping, my plan is to find some road which is fairly smooth and give it a go at factory, max, then minimum. Just to get a feel for it, then make some changes from there.
I don't like things which are presented as esoteric, if someone can spend 10 seconds with a screwdriver and do it, I'm determined to understand it.
Prof Prolapse said:
I can't tell if I've explained myself badly and you're disagreeing with me.
Yes you have and absolutely not 
I think my point is that people expect some screwdriver wielding chap to sort their supposed woes when they themselves don't know what they are and what's causing them. 40 quid isn't usually the panacea, rather take a moment to understand how/why it works as it does.
Prof Prolapse said:
After bassgt3 and others have said to do it yourself I bought the below book;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1893618455?psc=...
It really is great. Easy to read with lots of pictures which I need.
I'm doing my first attempt at setting the bike up on Saturday if I can get herself's mini steering put back together quickly.
All I'm doing is the pre-load, then I'm changing damping just one item at a time being careful of all sorts of things.
If you start messing with everything at once it's quite apparent even to an amateur like me you'll never work out what the effect of the changes are.
Assuming the book is to be believed, however I similarly have no idea how anyone but a rider can effectively set up a bike beyond preload. If they get it right then it's really more luck than skill. I dare say the placebo effect must be a factor as well.
It is a great book, very well put together and outlines everything in a way even MTB could understand... http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1893618455?psc=...
It really is great. Easy to read with lots of pictures which I need.
I'm doing my first attempt at setting the bike up on Saturday if I can get herself's mini steering put back together quickly.
All I'm doing is the pre-load, then I'm changing damping just one item at a time being careful of all sorts of things.
If you start messing with everything at once it's quite apparent even to an amateur like me you'll never work out what the effect of the changes are.
Assuming the book is to be believed, however I similarly have no idea how anyone but a rider can effectively set up a bike beyond preload. If they get it right then it's really more luck than skill. I dare say the placebo effect must be a factor as well.
Anyone can fiddle with suspension but few people that do actually understand what they are doing and the effect it has...
Before doing ANYTHING. Put the rebound and compression screws back to standard settings (look in the manual) and setup the rider sag. Static sag is only really useful to ensure the springs are in the right range for your weight, the important thing is you actually have some (i.e. the suspension is not fully topped out) so it can deal with bumps correctly.
To setup the rider sag you need to know the full travel of the fork and shock, this information can be found again in the manual. As a rough guide you want around 33% of its total travel for rider sag which gives around 35mm front and rear, most sportsbikes run a bit more sag in the front due to top out springs and can make for a more compliant ride on the road... As in an indication I run 35mm rear, 35-40mm front on my Fireblade. Just be aware of dialing in to much preload front or rear as this affects the geometry (ride height) of the bike.
Once you have the rider sag sorted, using a screwdriver wind in the rebound and compression adjusters fully clockwise, and then count number of turns fully out until the screw hits the stop... write it down, then dial in the standard setting. You should fine the standard settings will be around the mid point and therefore is a good starting point.
With all the settings written down and the rebound and compression set to standard settings, the sag setup for your weight take the bike out for a ride and warm the suspension up.
How does it feel? Does the front and rear rise at the same time when the suspension is compressed? - If not then tweak the rebound screws so that each end of the bike is rising at the same rate, it should rise quickly and settle on it's suspension, but not so fast that it bounces up. Get the bike to rise evenly at both ends then go ride it ...
How does it feel now? Importantly make one change at a time so you develop a 'feel' for what you are doing and so that you can understand what that change does and remember that winding in the screws 'slows' the speed rate at which the fork/shock compresses or rebounds...
In all honesty the standard rebound and compression settings are pretty good for the road on most bikes unless you are outside the springs designed working range and hence you won't get the rider sag correct. It differs from bike to bike hence why everyone bleats on about getting the sag sorted. When sorting the sag make sure you take into consideration stiction ... there should be barely any on the shock, but you'll probably find around 10-15mm on the forks so you need to take an average by lifting and pushing the bike down with the rider sat on the bike to take two measurements at each end to give an average.
I'm still learning myself but hope that helps.
bass gt3 said:
moanthebairns said:
that was very well explained as was your advice when I asked this same question 3 years ago. I should have listened to you more in detail at the time instead of expecting "suspension setups" to find that wow factor everyone goes on about, "its a new bike", "best £40 I've ever spent" I got suckered in by it all thinking it was just me doing it wrong and I was massively let down. I'm outwith the mean, I need to buy the right springs.
What do you weigh Alex?? Are you struggling with your road or track bike??
after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat s
t loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why. I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
moanthebairns said:
before winter weight 10 st 4 (summer weight)
after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat st loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why.
I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
So what are you sag measurements?after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat s
t loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why. I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
moanthebairns said:
you wash cars for a living you , I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along. 
Incorrect., I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along. Detailing is hobby.
I'm an IT Manager who builds and manages network infrastructure across 24 sites in the UK.
But what that has to do with suspension I don't know.
Mr OCD said:
moanthebairns said:
before winter weight 10 st 4 (summer weight)
after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat st loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why.
I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
So what are you sag measurements?after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat s
t loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why. I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
I try to get it as close to 100 mm as I can, I know there is no right number
Mr OCD said:
moanthebairns said:
you wash cars for a living you , I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along.
Incorrect., I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along. Detailing is hobby.
I'm an IT Manager who builds and manages network infrastructure across 24 sites in the UK.
But what that has to do with suspension I don't know.
moanthebairns said:
Mr OCD said:
moanthebairns said:
you wash cars for a living you , I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along.
Incorrect., I'm a piping designer, building inspector, lab tech......actually wait, im unemployed, moving along. Detailing is hobby.
I'm an IT Manager who builds and manages network infrastructure across 24 sites in the UK.
But what that has to do with suspension I don't know.
eta - also an IT Hexpert scott before you miss this humour
moanthebairns said:
before winter weight 10 st 4 (summer weight)
after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat st loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why.
I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
Cool,after winter im about 11 st 3 I was 11 st 8 a few months ago. this might sound stupid but I can put on a stone in winter easily, I eat s
t loads when its cold but I have a much reduced appetite when it gets warmer. Don't ask me why. I was struggling with the street over bumps it was just so firm but since I had my winter padding its much better. As i say im starting to loose weight again, ill be back down to below 11 st in the summer.
Well I'd say you're in the range for the standard springs. I presume this is the 675 Daytona?
So take it back basics.
if you have a front stand that picks the headstock up and lets the wheel hang start by measuring the full extension of the front fork. If not, get a couple of helpers to lift the bike by the bars and you measure the amount of shiny bit of fork showing, from fork wiper to fork foot.
Do the same for the rear, measuring vertically from the rear axle to a point on the bodywork. If necessary put a bit of tape on there as a reference point.
Now get your gear on and get on the bike. Now have someone measure to the same points again. Adjust the preload to that you get about 40mm of sag in the front, and 35mm in the rear.
Once the sag is set, and it shouldn't be too hard other than needing a C spanner for the rear, you can set the Comp & Rebound.
Always count from fully closed (clockwise) but don't start setting up until the suspension is warmed up. So go for a 30 minute ride and then start twiddling. There's plenty of advice on YT from Dave Moss about rebound setting. This really is the critical one because if the suspension doesn't return to neutral quickly enough, it will start packing down and massively changing the bikes geometry.
Once that's set right, dial in the comp to your preference, balancing brake dive with bump compliance.
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