suspension help

[bass gt3]

neelyp said:

Got him to sit on ma ma ma my Daytona last night and it barely sagged at all, I'm probably around fifteen stone without bike gear and it doesn't really move that far with me on it. This is with the preload adjuster not far off the top of the thread, certainly less than 10mm.

Just to be sure.....
H
Are you basing the measurements on the following. ?
1. Lift the rear completely off the ground and measure from the axle to a point vertically above it on the rear bodywork.
Put the bike back on the ground. Get the rider on the bike in his full riding gear in his normal riding position and repeat the same measurement. Be sure that both feet are on the pegs. This usually takes a few peeps to steady the bike and take the measurements.
Subtract measurement 2 from measurement 1 to derived dynamic sag.
Also I do agree that the standard rear shock and linkage are woeful on the early bikes. A secondhand Ohlins from the R model is the best option as well as changing the linkage to a less progressive version transforms the bike.

[Tim85]

moanthebairns said:

http://www.675.cc/675/threads/fork-springs-rate.14...

Interesting read.

It's widely acknowledged on 675 the rear shock is too stiff and they can vary from spring to spring. Source T3 racing. So it could not be all in my head.

All I got from that is every bike is different and every suspension specialist will tell you something different. I'd really just go to a trusted suspension place and do what they say.

Getting it set up still won't have any bearing on how cramped you feel on the bike though, surely that's a different issue.

[moanthebairns]

Tim85 said:

moanthebairns said:

http://www.675.cc/675/threads/fork-springs-rate.14...

Interesting read.

It's widely acknowledged on 675 the rear shock is too stiff and they can vary from spring to spring. Source T3 racing. So it could not be all in my head.

All I got from that is every bike is different and every suspension specialist will tell you something different. I'd really just go to a trusted suspension place and do what they say.

Getting it set up still won't have any bearing on how cramped you feel on the bike though, surely that's a different issue.

I thought the same. But when I'm one thread away from the top with some sag my feet feel like they are in my armpits.

We measured the exhaust and it's ten mm lower to the ground. I know what people are saying the pegs are mounted of the frame that's not changing. But when you cant lower the pegs any more and your arse has now dropped ten mm and you cramp up in seconds I can't ride it. That's it. It doesn't matter how it's happening I can't ride it at that setting.

Maybe I'm being a bit special here but I've had two guys from suspension setups tell me that spring is too stiff for my weight.

I've fought it for years.

I've ridden one before and it felt golden. I then find out every spring is different or can be and the earlier models have crap springs.

It's on the last thread to get it comfortable and sag which I've been told is a no no.

It's widely acknowledged by other owners the springs are too stiff.

I've ridden the unadjusted street and loved it, the spring at the back was spot on. My dad however found that st. Too soft. It's known the daytona is too stiff the street is too soft.

Not trying to be funny but Yazza had the same with a bike he had known for 30 seconds. He took it in and found out the springs were the wrong ones. I've had this bike 3 years. I've done a fair bit more Track days than Yazz, I've fought it from day one, but i get, your not fit enough. Rusted head bearings, its in the head, etc taken all into consideration, others complaining of the same, two suspension specialists, myself, etc why did Yazza get nil of this

[s3fella]

To me it just sounds like you have too much weight over the back meaning the back is too low compared to the front, and all your trail and rake goes to pot.
What is your front fork height? Bikes are incredibly sensitive to fork height and ride height, get your sag set for the rear as you have done, but then don't be too scared of dropping the top yoke over the forks.

It's not at all uncommon for road bikes with forks sticking out the top of the yokes by say 5 mil to send up with an inch sticking out for track use! Of course, you may well need stiffer fork springs to allow that, but the idea and effect on geometry is there.

Maybe try lifting the forks up though the top clamp by say 10 mil and go for a ride to see if it is noticeably easier. If so, try a bit more and see if you can lift the rear up too? If it gets more and more like you are wanting, feel wise, then it's just a case of getting spring rates and valving all sorted for your weight, then getting your ride heights and geometry set.

Remember if you've junked road kit off a track bike and you're a light guy, you may need softer springing even for track use.

[Tim85]

Because he just went and sorted it, I don't even remember a thread about it. If I went to a suspension guy and he said get a new spring Id buy a new spring straight away. No one's saying your wrong were just all just trying to give you different things to try. If you knew what it was why the thread asking for help and why keep it going just close it and go get the springs and if your still having trouble then explore the other things people have mentioned. I'll leave you to it anyway.

[Mr OCD]

Tim85 said:

Because he just went and sorted it, I don't even remember a thread about it. If I went to a suspension guy and he said get a new spring Id buy a new spring straight away. No one's saying your wrong were just all just trying to give you different things to try. If you knew what it was why the thread asking for help and why keep it going just close it and go get the springs and if your still having trouble then explore the other things people have mentioned. I'll leave you to it anyway.

This.

... and you STILL haven't given us the proper rider and static sag settings. Anything else is guesswork!

[SAS Tom]

Tim85 said:

Because he just went and sorted it, I don't even remember a thread about it. If I went to a suspension guy and he said get a new spring Id buy a new spring straight away. No one's saying your wrong were just all just trying to give you different things to try. If you knew what it was why the thread asking for help and why keep it going just close it and go get the springs and if your still having trouble then explore the other things people have mentioned. I'll leave you to it anyway.

Pretty much this. Most of us just sort the problem out. You've made a thread on it then told us what the problem is and we're all wrong.

The best suggestion is taking it to someone who knows what they are doing and get them to sort it out.

[bass gt3]

moanthebairns said:

But when I'm one thread away from the top with some sag my feet feel like they are in my armpits.

Sorry bud, but this is completely nonsensical. Your peg to seat distances do not change with sag. So I'm not sure what you're actually on about here?? Two completely different issues...
I also think you're failing to read the advice being given and going of on tangents.
Follow the process properly and determine your sag numbers. THEN you can determine whether you need new springs.

[clen666]

Just to throw something else into the mix -

Have you tried moving your pegs back? I know you say they are at the lowest setting but I'm sure when I looked at your bike they seemed to be set towards the front of their available adjustment.

[Prof Prolapse]

bass gt3 said:

Sorry bud, but this is completely nonsensical. Your peg to seat distances do not change with sag. So I'm not sure what you're actually on about here??

I think the confusion is whether or not the rear shock changes length when you adjust pre-load (as the front forks do). Which would alter the geometry, and the peg distances?

[bass gt3]

Prof Prolapse said:

I think the confusion is whether or not the rear shock changes length when you adjust pre-load (as the front forks do). Which would alter the geometry, and the peg distances?

The seat is attached to the subframe. The subframe is attached to the frame. The foot pegs are attached to the frame. Regardless of sag, shock length, these dimensions don't change. So when Alex says he feels like a Gorilla on a Monkey bike when the sag increases make no sense. The peg to seat dimensions won't change.

[Prof Prolapse]

I deserve a slap for that one.

Alex you should probably listen to Steve. It's increasingly clear we're all idiots.

[sc0tt]

bass gt3 said:

The seat is attached to the subframe. The subframe is attached to the frame. The foot pegs are attached to the frame. Regardless of sag, shock length, these dimensions don't change. So when Alex says he feels like a Gorilla on a Monkey bike when the sag increases make no sense. The peg to seat dimensions won't change.

I'm sure you are right but I just can't picture it in my head (Because I'm retarded)

So when you sit on the bike do the pegs get lower too?

[fergus]

sc0tt said:

bass gt3 said:

The seat is attached to the subframe. The subframe is attached to the frame. The foot pegs are attached to the frame. Regardless of sag, shock length, these dimensions don't change. So when Alex says he feels like a Gorilla on a Monkey bike when the sag increases make no sense. The peg to seat dimensions won't change.

I'm sure you are right but I just can't picture it in my head (Because I'm retarded)

So when you sit on the bike do the pegs get lower too?

In absolute terms, yes, but relative to the seat, no.

[clen666]

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about suspension setup, but I would try:

Get correct rear spring
Move rearsets back
Stick some extra foam on seat (à la BN's fireblade)

It sounds like you're having issues with sag but also the geometry of the rider contact points, but I don't know why this would be different to the other 675 you were comfortable on

[bass gt3]

sc0tt said:

bass gt3 said:

The seat is attached to the subframe. The subframe is attached to the frame. The foot pegs are attached to the frame. Regardless of sag, shock length, these dimensions don't change. So when Alex says he feels like a Gorilla on a Monkey bike when the sag increases make no sense. The peg to seat dimensions won't change.

I'm sure you are right but I just can't picture it in my head (Because I'm retarded)

So when you sit on the bike do the pegs get lower too?

s, when you sit on the bike the rear lowers. But the distance between the seat and the pegs remains the same as they're all fixed to the same thing..... the frame
The ergonomics remain fixed regardless of suspension movement.
Think of it like this.... When riding, do your pegs move up and down with the suspension??????(You know the answer to this one )

[Prof Prolapse]

Oh Jesus.

Suspension 101. 'Establishing which bits of the bike fking move'.

[bass gt3]

Prof Prolapse said:

Oh Jesus.

Suspension 101. 'Establishing which bits of the bike fking move'.

[sc0tt]

bass gt3 said:

sc0tt said:

bass gt3 said:

The seat is attached to the subframe. The subframe is attached to the frame. The foot pegs are attached to the frame. Regardless of sag, shock length, these dimensions don't change. So when Alex says he feels like a Gorilla on a Monkey bike when the sag increases make no sense. The peg to seat dimensions won't change.

I'm sure you are right but I just can't picture it in my head (Because I'm retarded)

So when you sit on the bike do the pegs get lower too?

s, when you sit on the bike the rear lowers. But the distance between the seat and the pegs remains the same as they're all fixed to the same thing..... the frame
The ergonomics remain fixed regardless of suspension movement.
Think of it like this.... When riding, do your pegs move up and down with the suspension??????(You know the answer to this one )

You are correct.

I just can't picture it in my head.

103 miles in a year does this to you!

[moanthebairns]

Firstly I appreciate the advice.

Problem is, every time I fk about with it I have to wait until I'm on the track to find out how it is as its not road legal.

I know what everyone is saying but my rearsets are adjustable and as far back, whilst being as low as they can. I cannot work it out as well, my Dad and myself are sitting there looking at it going, how the fk do they change as they are on the frame. they shouldn't but my under seat exhaust moves down ten mm to the ground, my dads measured it and told me this, this is arching my knees into myself as the pegs don't change, I'm trying not to be wilfully dense honestly I am, but when your seat, that is only 6 inches away from the exhaust moves down ten mm isn't it logical that the seat also moves, to a degree.

I'm going to take Mckeann up on the offer to set it all up correctly.

I forgot that loosing all the road fairings would alter it, that's a fair bit weight right there

I also forgot that the seat unit I got sits much higher than the standard seat. it has a mounting plate that sits over the battery increasing the ride height by a fair bit. I had to take it off at oulton and use the stock seat as I was too cramped up, having the adjustable pegs solved this but its clearly still a issue.

Ive only every raised my forks through the yoke to triumphs recommendation for the road.

Part of me is tempted just to the bike to the suspension guy, sit on it and get him to do the work, there Is just too mamy variables and I underestimated how much of a black art this is. Everytime I read more and understand it a bit more I change something and its a pile of ste on the track wasting my time on there.

I have to weight up, is it worth the money to get it setup correctly or fk about with it wasting track days.

Edited by moanthebairns on Wednesday 22 April 11:09