suspension help

[sc0tt]

I'd take it to someone who actually knows what they were doing tbh mate.

But I'd do it at a track so you can feedback and make the required changes whilst you are there.

Thats what I hope to do with mine when it finally gets an outing.

[clen666]

I would have thought that lowering the seat height would have you in an even more cramped position?

I'll leave it to the pro's then!

[moanthebairns]

we all are remembering that the Daytona has an under seat exhaust?

seriously, I'm going to take one more time at explaining this then admit failure and shut up because, I just cannot grasp this as it seems logical to me but possibly its my poor explanations.

I increase the sag to Bass gt3's recommendations. As I do this it reaches the top of the notches on the spring. ok.

INSTANTLY, I now can touch my feet flat on the floor. I'm not joking. Seriously I went that's fking odd.

we turned it back to what it was before with the 1" setup of rear sag, as confirmed as being ok with the suspension guy at croft.

My dad picked the tip of the underseat exhaust and measured it to the ground.

his next reading to the ground from the rear was 10 mm lower.

If his readings are correct and my instant feeling that its lower is also correct without sitting on the thing something is happening.

as the underseat exhaust moves to the ground, It brings with it the seat on the subframe, it has to as its a race seat and the mounts for this are right at the tip of the exhaust. Surely, I honestly aint trying to be dense here, or not listen, but when you measure that isn't it possible that my arse is now lets say the extreme 10 mm lower with this race seat unit.

my peg position cant change any lower, imagine squatting for a st, but not sitting down, move your arse down ten mm, you are now increasing the bend radius at your knee. the front hasn't moved at all, exaggerating the effect whilst riding, your feet are at the same point, but your arse is 10mm lower. This causes me to cramp up more on the bike.

Is this just gibberish. if so I cannot get my head around why this wouldn't be the case.

[bass gt3]

I think you're hexing yourself and getting all spooked by it. It really isn't hard as long as you observe the process.
The most important is sag. This is critical. If this is wrong, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid, do not enjoy your TD.
So follow this STEP BY STEP. DO Not jump/assume/fudge/over-think any of the following...

For the front

1. Count how many turns of preload the forks have from fully out to fully in
2. Set the preload adjuster on both forks to the half way number of the previous finding
3. Lift the front of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the result around 30-40% of value in 4?
11. If close, adjust the preload nuts to achieve a value 30-40% of value in 4
For a fork with 125mm full extension, road sag is good around 35 to 45mm and 30 to 40 mm for track

For the rear

1. Measure the preload of the rear spring by measuring from the top of the spring to the last thread on the shaft that a collar can wind out to. Usual number for 1 is 12-14mm however it's likely the Triumph manual will tell you this.
2. Set the rear preload to the required value in 1
3. Lift the rear of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the rear axle to a reference point vertically above the axle. A piece of Duct tape can be affixed to provide reference point.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the rear axle to the reference point vertically above the axle.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the value derived in 9 35 to 40mm for road riding or 30 to 35mm for track?
11. If close, adjust the preload collar to achieve the value in 10

So go do it right.....

Edited by bass gt3 on Wednesday 22 April 11:23

[Mr OCD]

It really isn't a black art... you are just confusing matters going off at a tangent trying to digest all the information you have that has very little relevance if any.

Ignore everything, get the sag setup... first measure it. Full travel measurement and rider sag (you on the bike) and get this in the right range, if this needs new springs then do that. Include stiction of the forks and shock... look up Dave Moss videos if you don't know how to do that.

Once that's done then mess about with the seat, pegs, etc. to get comfortable but not till you've got the sag in the right range.

Make the effort to learn.

[moanthebairns]

I also should further explain.

My seat unit has two bolts that sit almost at the tip of the exhaust.

there is then on bolt 5 dia bolt that goes through into the holding. The thing is its not like the stock seat that never moves. this has a bit of "flex" in it. If I wanted to I could pull it up 10 mm easy whilst lifting from the seat area but nil at the back as it has to secure mounting points and NO FLEX.

Could it be that, with the stock seat (that never moves) and the subframe points that get closer never drop (noticeably) that with this aftermarket poorly fitted seat unit, because its not tight down AT THE SEAT and has some flex, as the exhaust bracket mounting points lower, it acts as a counter lever at the loosely clamping mounting point. On a stock seat this would wouldn't happen the slope stays the same, but what im now doing is pulling it up a tad as there is a bit of play, if you pull the seat at the battery point, where you would sit it will pull up 10 mm easy? this would flatten the seat out giving me a awkward riding position

This seems so logical to me, im a fking designer for fk sake this should be a piece of pish.

of course the only other thing is that whilst doing these measurements I have rocked the bike back or forward on to the tiny slope in the garage. Giving false readings and feel or my dad hasn't taken them correctly

[sc0tt]

Print this

http://www.gostar-racing.com/club/motorcycle_suspe...

It has pikchas and everyfink

[Mr OCD]

bass gt3 said:

I think you're hexing yourself and getting all spooked by it. It really isn't hard as long as you observe the process.
The most important is sag. This is critical. If this is wrong, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid, do not enjoy your TD.
So follow this STEP BY STEP. DO Not jump/assume/fudge/over-think any of the following...

For the front

1. Count how many turns of preload the forks have from fully out to fully in
2. Set the preload adjuster on both forks to the half way number of the previous finding
3. Lift the front of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the result around 30-40% of value in 4?
11. If close, adjust the preload nuts to achieve a value 30-40% of value in 4
For a fork with 125mm full extension, road sag is good around 35 to 45mm and 30 to 40 mm for track

For the rear

1. Measure the preload of the rear spring by measuring from the top of the spring to the last thread on the shaft that a collar can wind out to. Usual number for 1 is 12-14mm however it's likely the Triumph manual will tell you this.
2. Set the rear preload to the required value in 1
3. Lift the rear of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the rear axle to a reference point vertically above the axle. A piece of Duct tape can be affixed to provide reference point.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the rear axle to the reference point vertically above the axle.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the value derived in 9 35 to 40mm for road riding or 30 to 35mm for track?
11. If close, adjust the preload collar to achieve the value in 10

So go do it right.....

Edited by bass gt3 on Wednesday 22 April 11:23

Great post

[Fleegle]

Casey Stoner would ride round the problem

[bass gt3]

Fleegle said:

Casey Stoner would ridewhinge round the problem

[moanthebairns]

bass gt3 said:

I think you're hexing yourself and getting all spooked by it. It really isn't hard as long as you observe the process.
The most important is sag. This is critical. If this is wrong, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid, do not enjoy your TD.
So follow this STEP BY STEP. DO Not jump/assume/fudge/over-think any of the following...

For the front

1. Count how many turns of preload the forks have from fully out to fully in
2. Set the preload adjuster on both forks to the half way number of the previous finding
3. Lift the front of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the top of the fork foot to the bottom edge of the fork wiper. This is how much Shiny slider is showing.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the result around 30-40% of value in 4?
11. If close, adjust the preload nuts to achieve a value 30-40% of value in 4
For a fork with 125mm full extension, road sag is good around 35 to 45mm and 30 to 40 mm for track

For the rear

1. Measure the preload of the rear spring by measuring from the top of the spring to the last thread on the shaft that a collar can wind out to. Usual number for 1 is 12-14mm however it's likely the Triumph manual will tell you this.
2. Set the rear preload to the required value in 1
3. Lift the rear of the bike off the ground completely
4. Measure the distance from the rear axle to a reference point vertically above the axle. A piece of Duct tape can be affixed to provide reference point.
5. Put the bike back on the ground.
6. Get on the bike in your full riding gear
7. Assume your normal riding position with BOTH feet on the pegs
8. Measure the distance from the rear axle to the reference point vertically above the axle.
9. Subtract the measurement found in 8 from the measurement found in 4
10. Is the value derived in 9 35 to 40mm for road riding or 30 to 35mm for track?
11. If close, adjust the preload collar to achieve the value in 10

So go do it right.....

Edited by bass gt3 on Wednesday 22 April 11:23

printed thanks very much, easy to understand when you say it like that

[Prof Prolapse]

moanthebairns said:

I also should further explain.

My seat unit has two bolts that sit almost at the tip of the exhaust.

there is then on bolt 5 dia bolt that goes through into the holding. The thing is its not like the stock seat that never moves. this has a bit of "flex" in it. If I wanted to I could pull it up 10 mm easy whilst lifting from the seat area but nil at the back as it has to secure mounting points and NO FLEX.

Could it be that, with the stock seat (that never moves) and the subframe points that get closer never drop (noticeably) that with this aftermarket poorly fitted seat unit, because its not tight down AT THE SEAT and has some flex, as the exhaust bracket mounting points lower, it acts as a counter lever at the loosely clamping mounting point. On a stock seat this would wouldn't happen the slope stays the same, but what im now doing is pulling it up a tad as there is a bit of play, if you pull the seat at the battery point, where you would sit it will pull up 10 mm easy? this would flatten the seat out giving me a awkward riding position

This seems so logical to me, im a fking designer for fk sake this should be a piece of pish.

of course the only other thing is that whilst doing these measurements I have rocked the bike back or forward on to the tiny slope in the garage. Giving false readings and feel or my dad hasn't taken them correctly

It doesn't make sense to me mate.

Nothing bolted to the frame will move relative to itself. Only the swinging arm in relation to the rest of the bike, and the frame relative to the ground, hence getting your feet on the floor.

[bass gt3]

moanthebairns said:

printed thanks very much, easy to understand when you say it like that

What I didn't say is that if you can't achieve the correct sag numbers with a few turns either side of the centre point then yes, you need new springs.
If the forks have 10 turns of preload, set it to 5 for the measurements and ideally go no further than 2 turnsto7turns. More turns is worse as it indicates you're trying to compensate for a weak spring. Also remember that each turn of front preload lifts the front of the bike by 1mm.Might not seem much but can really affect the geometry and feel of the bike

[moanthebairns]

Prof Prolapse said:

moanthebairns said:

I also should further explain.

My seat unit has two bolts that sit almost at the tip of the exhaust.

there is then on bolt 5 dia bolt that goes through into the holding. The thing is its not like the stock seat that never moves. this has a bit of "flex" in it. If I wanted to I could pull it up 10 mm easy whilst lifting from the seat area but nil at the back as it has to secure mounting points and NO FLEX.

Could it be that, with the stock seat (that never moves) and the subframe points that get closer never drop (noticeably) that with this aftermarket poorly fitted seat unit, because its not tight down AT THE SEAT and has some flex, as the exhaust bracket mounting points lower, it acts as a counter lever at the loosely clamping mounting point. On a stock seat this would wouldn't happen the slope stays the same, but what im now doing is pulling it up a tad as there is a bit of play, if you pull the seat at the battery point, where you would sit it will pull up 10 mm easy? this would flatten the seat out giving me a awkward riding position

This seems so logical to me, im a fking designer for fk sake this should be a piece of pish.

of course the only other thing is that whilst doing these measurements I have rocked the bike back or forward on to the tiny slope in the garage. Giving false readings and feel or my dad hasn't taken them correctly

It doesn't make sense to me mate.

Nothing bolted to the frame will move relative to itself. Only the swinging arm in relation to the rest of the bike, and the frame relative to the ground, hence getting your feet on the floor.

I need to do this again, my dad took readings and it moved.

A) im wrong which seems the case. But im sat there going look at this. it doesn't feel right and my dad confirms it moves it. we've measure it.

or

B) my dads fked the readings up, ill give him the benefit of the doubt but he is a tiff and doesn't measure things for a living

C) I have inadvertently wheeled my bike back or forward to the slight slope towards the threshold during all this giving a false reading.

D) fk it im buying a scooter.

I take on board every things that's been said but when im looing at the readings they cannot lie, if they are correct.

[moanthebairns]

bass gt3 said:

moanthebairns said:

printed thanks very much, easy to understand when you say it like that

What I didn't say is that if you can't achieve the correct sag numbers with a few turns either side of the centre point then yes, you need new springs.
If the forks have 10 turns of preload, set it to 5 for the measurements and ideally go no further than 2 turnsto7turns. More turns is worse as it indicates you're trying to compensate for a weak spring. Also remember that each turn of front preload lifts the front of the bike by 1mm.Might not seem much but can really affect the geometry and feel of the bike

ok thanks

[Prof Prolapse]

moanthebairns said:

I need to do this again, my dad took readings and it moved.

A) im wrong which seems the case. But im sat there going look at this. it doesn't feel right and my dad confirms it moves it. we've measure it.

or

B) my dads fked the readings up, ill give him the benefit of the doubt but he is a tiff and doesn't measure things for a living

C) I have inadvertently wheeled my bike back or forward to the slight slope towards the threshold during all this giving a false reading.

D) fk it im buying a scooter.

I take on board every things that's been said but when im looing at the readings they cannot lie, if they are correct.

You'll have just accidentally measured the wrong point.

Well (C) wouldn't make a difference for the same reason adjusting the pre-load doesn't. Compressing/Expanding your spring will absolutely not impact the distance between your pegs and any point of the subframe, or frame. It will only impact the distance of the frame to the ground.

It's actually no different from sitting in your car, having someone jack it up, then being curious why your head isn't closer to the roof.

[Speed addicted]

How would wheeling the bike forward chnge the measurement if you're only measuing the bike?

If you think the seat unit is a problem can't you take it off/replace the standard one/fix it properly for the measuring? From what you've said you're measuring the tip of the bodywrk on the seat, not the area directly above the rear axle. The tip of the bodywork should give a larger reading as it'l move more being further away from the pivot point.

Edited by Speed addicted on Wednesday 22 April 12:00

[Tim85]

Just as a side note. The measurement from the exhaust to the floor will definitely of changed. And the measurement from the seat to the floor. Hence having flat feet. What won't of changed is the measurement from the seat to the pegs at any point as they're fixed give or take any slight flex when your arse is on it. Which I wouldn't of thought should be any. So you'll of felt lower when standing on the bike but if you got both feet up on the pegs you wouldn't of noticed a difference

Half the people like me have been trying to sort your comfort out and the more knowlegable guys are trying to sort your suspension out and both conversations are mixed and confusing when read back to back.

[Tim85]

I might be wrong but it reads like you have two problems. The ergonomics on the bike. Your Sat cramped and can't seem to move around and then the fact the rear is too stiff for your weight.

Sorting your suspension isn't going to make you magically comfortable. You need to adjust bars, lever, rear sets, seat. What ever it is to make you comfortable sitting on the bike so you can move around. Only you know why your not comfortable and should be able to sort that side on your own.
You say you used to be able to get your knee down and lean further. Even with a spring for a different weight you should be able to ride around this to some degree at our pace. Being uncomfortable and not being able to move sounds to me like your major problem and needs to be sorted.

Again I'm not saying your suspension doesn't need sorting but I can guarantee sorting isn't going to make you instantly less cramped and if it does then it was most likely in your head as it won't of effected your body position.....unless I'm totally wrong.

Look at it logically... What has changed since then. Yes you've got a bit faster, to the point you can out ride slightly off suspension I'd question. But haven't you fitted a race rear seat unit and rear sets since then? It just sounds like in adding these bits you've changed your riding position and your body's not having it.

Edited by Tim85 on Wednesday 22 April 12:29

[Hooli]

Tim85 said:

Just as a side note. The measurement from the exhaust to the floor will definitely of changed. And the measurement from the seat to the floor. Hence having flat feet. What won't of changed is the measurement from the seat to the pegs at any point as they're fixed give or take any slight flex when your arse is on it. Which I wouldn't of thought should be any. So you'll of felt lower when standing on the bike but if you got both feet up on the pegs you wouldn't of noticed a difference

Exactly this. The seat to peg relationship doesn't change, it can't as they are connected by a solid bit of metal.