How far can litre bike development go?
Discussion
NITO said:
As for litre bike development, I think the limiting factor will be people losing interest in them. They're becoming pointless imho.
People have been saying that for a long time though, and every now and then something comes along and really ups the game. The original Fireblade cutting weight and being an amazing handler. The big bang R1 for it's engine. The S1000RR for being an amazing distillation of the technology - and perhaps the new R1 taking that next step up again. You talk of people losing interest in them, and a couple of years ago people were saying that sports bikes were dead in the UK. The market seems to be coming back for them, at least in the litre bike class. The Super Sports class needs a boost though. I still see at least one sports bike for every overweight old bloke on a shiny GS.
The halo bikes by all the manufacturers are litre class sexy superbikes that have questionable value on the road, all producing over 200hp. However, the most popular selling litre class bike is the ugly boxer twin R1200GS - with only 135hp that has an engine that could be carbon-dated.
Is a superbike any quicker on the public road compared to the ancient GS? On a recent trip to the Nurburgring with a V4 Tuono, Hayabusa, Ducati 1098, and 2 x Multistradas (all with over 150hp), the GS was no slower and more comfortable than all the others.
Every superbike already has electronics to reign in the excess power because the power beyond 150hp needs electronic constraint. The future of litre bike development is absolutely alive... the upside isn't with the superbikes - it will be with real world bikes like the ancient GS that are comfortable, usable, as fast as you need it to be, and still demonstrably outsell every other superbike.
Is a superbike any quicker on the public road compared to the ancient GS? On a recent trip to the Nurburgring with a V4 Tuono, Hayabusa, Ducati 1098, and 2 x Multistradas (all with over 150hp), the GS was no slower and more comfortable than all the others.
Every superbike already has electronics to reign in the excess power because the power beyond 150hp needs electronic constraint. The future of litre bike development is absolutely alive... the upside isn't with the superbikes - it will be with real world bikes like the ancient GS that are comfortable, usable, as fast as you need it to be, and still demonstrably outsell every other superbike.
spareparts said:
Is a superbike any quicker on the public road compared to the ancient GS? On a recent trip to the Nurburgring with a V4 Tuono, Hayabusa, Ducati 1098, and 2 x Multistradas (all with over 150hp), the GS was no slower and more comfortable than all the others.
Err aye, because if you're just cruising public roads the sports bikes set a pace that the slowest bike can keep. Friends of mine went to Germany last year and a Harley Davidson cruiser kept up with a Hyperstrada and a K1300S, because everyone agreed to ride a suitable pace to allow the slow bike to keep up. What's the point of going on a trip with friends, if you won't ride with friends? Yeah, the fast bikes occasionally cut loose and and left the HD behind, of course, with an agreement that they'd all meet up later. On tight and twisty roads, or fast sweepers, the sports bikes will naturally disappear at the drop of a hat. Different animals, of course, and that's why the GS isn't a favourite on the race grid. The fact that the GS is definitely more 'Strasse' than 'Gelande' is neither here nor there...
I tried a GS before going for the S 1000 R.
Isn't the engine in the GS all new and now part air part water cooled?
In any case, it was a very nice bike. Plenty of low down power and decent handling. In the right hands I can imagine it would be very quick on the road. Ok it would be out of place at the TT but on real roads where you have to think about what might be around the corner (not to speak of your licence) I can't see how a sports bike could get away. On track it would be a different matter but not doubt.
However, although the GS was nice it just wasn't anywhere near as nice to ride (for me) as the S 1000 R. I do prefer how a sportsbike feels, how it sounds and the manic acceleration.
Isn't the engine in the GS all new and now part air part water cooled?
In any case, it was a very nice bike. Plenty of low down power and decent handling. In the right hands I can imagine it would be very quick on the road. Ok it would be out of place at the TT but on real roads where you have to think about what might be around the corner (not to speak of your licence) I can't see how a sports bike could get away. On track it would be a different matter but not doubt.
However, although the GS was nice it just wasn't anywhere near as nice to ride (for me) as the S 1000 R. I do prefer how a sportsbike feels, how it sounds and the manic acceleration.
Baryonyx said:
Err aye, because if you're just cruising public roads the sports bikes set a pace that the slowest bike can keep. Friends of mine went to Germany last year and a Harley Davidson cruiser kept up with a Hyperstrada and a K1300S, because everyone agreed to ride a suitable pace to allow the slow bike to keep up. What's the point of going on a trip with friends, if you won't ride with friends? Yeah, the fast bikes occasionally cut loose and and left the HD behind, of course, with an agreement that they'd all meet up later.
On tight and twisty roads, or fast sweepers, the sports bikes will naturally disappear at the drop of a hat. Different animals, of course, and that's why the GS isn't a favourite on the race grid. The fact that the GS is definitely more 'Strasse' than 'Gelande' is neither here nor there...
Oh, ok! I'll take your word for it On tight and twisty roads, or fast sweepers, the sports bikes will naturally disappear at the drop of a hat. Different animals, of course, and that's why the GS isn't a favourite on the race grid. The fact that the GS is definitely more 'Strasse' than 'Gelande' is neither here nor there...
I'd be more interested to find out when they become too much for tracks like cadwell and Knockhill god bsb boys.
With my megar abilities I can hold the throttle open full for aslong as I dare at most tracks. I couldn't imagine nor do I want to a bsb rider doing so.
They must be on the edge at the moment now. At some point they are only going to be truly usable on gp tracks. Maybe.
With my megar abilities I can hold the throttle open full for aslong as I dare at most tracks. I couldn't imagine nor do I want to a bsb rider doing so.
They must be on the edge at the moment now. At some point they are only going to be truly usable on gp tracks. Maybe.
moanthebairns said:
They must be on the edge at the moment now. At some point they are only going to be truly usable on gp tracks. Maybe.
Yeah that is what i'm thinking.Even the blade is waaaay too much on the road really. Sure you can ride is sensibly, and the throttle goes both ways as they say, but it's not possible (for me at least) to go for a ride without exploring the revs a bit.
And exploring the revs means doing something very illegal. 95 in 1st gear at the top of the revs means that it is not possible to rev it above about 9k rpm in any gear without being illegal!!
Saying that, i love it because it intimidates me. It's dangerous and i feel alive when using it.
When i open the garage it's like the shop window of a strip club where the blade is a dancer trying to get me to go for a lap dance, where the VFR is more like my wife.
D
PTF said:
Yeah that is what i'm thinking.
Even the blade is waaaay too much on the road really. Sure you can ride is sensibly, and the throttle goes both ways as they say, but it's not possible (for me at least) to go for a ride without exploring the revs a bit.
And exploring the revs means doing something very illegal. 95 in 1st gear at the top of the revs means that it is not possible to rev it above about 9k rpm in any gear without being illegal!!
Saying that, i love it because it intimidates me. It's dangerous and i feel alive when using it.
When i open the garage it's like the shop window of a strip club where the blade is a dancer trying to get me to go for a lap dance, where the VFR is more like my wife.
Unless your wife is very understanding, best hope she doesn't read that! Even the blade is waaaay too much on the road really. Sure you can ride is sensibly, and the throttle goes both ways as they say, but it's not possible (for me at least) to go for a ride without exploring the revs a bit.
And exploring the revs means doing something very illegal. 95 in 1st gear at the top of the revs means that it is not possible to rev it above about 9k rpm in any gear without being illegal!!
Saying that, i love it because it intimidates me. It's dangerous and i feel alive when using it.
When i open the garage it's like the shop window of a strip club where the blade is a dancer trying to get me to go for a lap dance, where the VFR is more like my wife.
fergus said:
bennyb24 said:
Forget litre bikes, I reckon petrol bikes have about 5 years left..... then electric will become a viable alternative - the breakeven point doesn't seem too far away for me.
I reckon battery and charging technology will have to evolve a fair bit to make this viable for non-commuter type bikesA bit OT, but I think the future of bike development in general, is to develop a bike I actually want to own!
I don't like any modern sports bikes...they're too small and look rubbish. The new R1 is a complete dogs dinner, a mis-mash of bits that don't match. The BMW 1000RR with it's non-matching headlights just irritates my OCD.
In fact, the only bike I would consider is the GPZ1400 because it looks nice, it's nice and big and it's fast.
But I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
I don't like any modern sports bikes...they're too small and look rubbish. The new R1 is a complete dogs dinner, a mis-mash of bits that don't match. The BMW 1000RR with it's non-matching headlights just irritates my OCD.
In fact, the only bike I would consider is the GPZ1400 because it looks nice, it's nice and big and it's fast.
But I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
A bit OT, but I think the future of bike development in general, is to develop a bike I actually want to own!
I don't like any modern sports bikes...they're too small and look rubbish. The new R1 is a complete dogs dinner, a mis-mash of bits that don't match. The BMW 1000RR with it's non-matching headlights just irritates my OCD.
In fact, the only bike I would consider is the GPZ1400 because it looks nice, it's nice and big and it's fast.
But I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
Pmsl at I own a sI don't like any modern sports bikes...they're too small and look rubbish. The new R1 is a complete dogs dinner, a mis-mash of bits that don't match. The BMW 1000RR with it's non-matching headlights just irritates my OCD.
In fact, the only bike I would consider is the GPZ1400 because it looks nice, it's nice and big and it's fast.
But I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
tbox but can justify it reply ......DrDoofenshmirtz said:
I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
Great bikes, but as far as power and performance goes, really? It's been more than matched - it was outperformed even when it was in production.Mastodon2 said:
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
I'll be sticking with the Blackbird for now - there's been nothing to match it's looks, power and performance since it went out of production.
Great bikes, but as far as power and performance goes, really? It's been more than matched - it was outperformed even when it was in production.
jhoneyball said:
Was at a bmw trackday this week. Lot of RR, and other exotica. The bloke from BMW UK on a 1200RT outran *all* of them. And by a considerably margin.
That doesn't really prove much. They race sportsbikes for a reason. But if your not a racer it's more down to the rider than the type of bike. As I was reminded when that 11 year old Stacy storm went round the outside of me whilst wiping his visor and then carried so much speed I couldn't catch his little 125 even on the straight....doh! It's the same every generation of bikes/cars. 100hp is too much, 150 is too much, 200 is too much. Theres been some times in model history where the new one doesn't increase from the previous generation but it usually doesn't take long for that to start progressing again as tyres, electronics, General cost of things come down.
I'm not saying 320hp is going to be the norm anytime soon but all the journos didn't just die on the h2r launch.
Where one group of bikes step up the lower classes are filling the gaps. What do modern 600s make now. Nearly 130hp? That's pretty much what the early litre bikes made.
We're just at that stage where people are having to accept that electronics are going to be a part of most if not all new bikes from now on.
I must admit, I was surprised when I was looking at the power figures for the current 600s and saw them in the 125bhp range, that is incredible. I often wonder why sports bikes, in particular the 600 class, aren't more popular - I suppose adventure bikes are the "cool" thing these days. Some journos seem to cite a lack of technical innovation in the 600 class as the reason, in particular a failure to adopt the electronics packages of their big brothers, but even with current power levels, do they really need TC, anti-wheelie etc? I suspect not, though I've not done the market research, so who knows.
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