How far can litre bike development go?
Discussion
!! Contains a bit of a spoiler for the latest Bike magazine if you're wanting to read it yourself !!
I hadn't ridden my blade for a month or two because of bad weather, and buying an old VFR for commuting, which I've been having a hoot on.
But yesterday I felt like commuting on it, so dug it out of the garage.
First few throttle openings were astonishing! HOW FAST?!?!? How smooth and easy to ride! My god. What a machine. I only got past 8k rpm a few times and it's just ridiculous up there. Simply breathtaking machine. Possibly a little lacking in soul compared to the VFR, and it isn't pleasurable to ride all the time like the VFR is, but for kicks and giggles in a fairly sensible disguise it's brilliant. Naturally I ended up riding like a complete tool on the way home and am now waiting for some dash cam footage to appear up in court of my arse flying past a Honda Jazz (or similar blurry object from my point of view) while giggling like a child.
And then today my copy of Bike magazine fell through the door. On the cover is a test comparing the current blade (same model as mine) with the H2, 2015 R1, 1299 and 2015 S1000RR.
To cut a long story short, the blade comes out last, though they do speak fairly highly of it, but in a slightly compassionate tone like they're feeling sorry for it.
It loses our on power massively, lap time by quite some margin, and they're generally not very complementary about the engine and suspension.
Having said all that, somehow spending £12k on a litre bike seems like a bargain compared to the prices quoted for the newer stuff where £15k-£22k seems the norm.
So. How far can they keep pushing things? People have now accepted that electronic rider aids are a good thing (i'm yet to be convinced that idiot proofing bikes is a good thing), forced induction is now out there in the mainstream. So presumably as long as they can develop the power reliably and manage it with electronics the sky is the limit?
I hadn't ridden my blade for a month or two because of bad weather, and buying an old VFR for commuting, which I've been having a hoot on.
But yesterday I felt like commuting on it, so dug it out of the garage.
First few throttle openings were astonishing! HOW FAST?!?!? How smooth and easy to ride! My god. What a machine. I only got past 8k rpm a few times and it's just ridiculous up there. Simply breathtaking machine. Possibly a little lacking in soul compared to the VFR, and it isn't pleasurable to ride all the time like the VFR is, but for kicks and giggles in a fairly sensible disguise it's brilliant. Naturally I ended up riding like a complete tool on the way home and am now waiting for some dash cam footage to appear up in court of my arse flying past a Honda Jazz (or similar blurry object from my point of view) while giggling like a child.
And then today my copy of Bike magazine fell through the door. On the cover is a test comparing the current blade (same model as mine) with the H2, 2015 R1, 1299 and 2015 S1000RR.
To cut a long story short, the blade comes out last, though they do speak fairly highly of it, but in a slightly compassionate tone like they're feeling sorry for it.
It loses our on power massively, lap time by quite some margin, and they're generally not very complementary about the engine and suspension.
Having said all that, somehow spending £12k on a litre bike seems like a bargain compared to the prices quoted for the newer stuff where £15k-£22k seems the norm.
So. How far can they keep pushing things? People have now accepted that electronic rider aids are a good thing (i'm yet to be convinced that idiot proofing bikes is a good thing), forced induction is now out there in the mainstream. So presumably as long as they can develop the power reliably and manage it with electronics the sky is the limit?
Edited by PTF on Friday 22 May 14:53
PTF said:
So presumably as long as they can develop the power reliably and manage it with electronics the sky is the limit?
Maybe but how much power can you actually use / do you need?Litre bikes have been able to do 180 mph+ and a standing quarter in 10 seconds for the past 10+ years. Do you really need to go faster?
trickywoo said:
PTF said:
So presumably as long as they can develop the power reliably and manage it with electronics the sky is the limit?
Maybe but how much power can you actually use / do you need?Litre bikes have been able to do 180 mph+ and a standing quarter in 10 seconds for the past 10+ years. Do you really need to go faster?
I was seriously thinking yesterday that I should probably sell the blade because it is just too much. A 600 would be a hoot on the road if you wanted to just rip round the rev counter and tackle some twisties. At least the speeds would be down 10-20%.
So what are these new breed aimed at? Is it just a side-effect of racing that they have to sell these as road bikes? H2 is the obv exclusion from that but I see that more as Kawasaki doing what they've always done and push road bike speeds quicker and quicker - GPZs, ZZRs, etc.
Despite top end power increasing quite a bit in the past 10 years the quarter mile times and in gear times at normal speeds have not. A lot of the time you are restricted by how much power the tyres will take (or in having to prevent unwanted wheelies). If you look at the times the extra power starts to be felt at higher speeds. That makes a difference on track but most people aren't riding regularly above 120 on the road.
Even on track I would guess that skill and experience are much more important than power.
The motorcycle companies can't stand still as they clearly believe (I suspect correctly) that potential buyers will only hand over their old bikes and hard earned cash (or to be earned cash in a lot of cases!) if they believe that the new bike is "better". Having more power and being faster in tests (or on track in the hands of experts) is clearly one way of objectively "improving" bikes so I don't that bikes will stop getting more powerful. Whether that makes them better for most riders, who are likely only using a small percentage of available performance, is open to question.
Often bike purchases are not that rational though and pub bragging rights and knowing how quick your bike could be (if you weren't riding it!!!) are worth a lot.
Personally I am trying to learn how to use my S 1000 R but I am glad it doesn't speak as I'm sure it would be calling out "is that all you got you pussy?!" every time I walk away from it!
Even on track I would guess that skill and experience are much more important than power.
The motorcycle companies can't stand still as they clearly believe (I suspect correctly) that potential buyers will only hand over their old bikes and hard earned cash (or to be earned cash in a lot of cases!) if they believe that the new bike is "better". Having more power and being faster in tests (or on track in the hands of experts) is clearly one way of objectively "improving" bikes so I don't that bikes will stop getting more powerful. Whether that makes them better for most riders, who are likely only using a small percentage of available performance, is open to question.
Often bike purchases are not that rational though and pub bragging rights and knowing how quick your bike could be (if you weren't riding it!!!) are worth a lot.
Personally I am trying to learn how to use my S 1000 R but I am glad it doesn't speak as I'm sure it would be calling out "is that all you got you pussy?!" every time I walk away from it!
PTF said:
I was seriously thinking yesterday that I should probably sell the blade because it is just too much. A 600 would be a hoot on the road if you wanted to just rip round the rev counter and tackle some twisties. At least the speeds would be down 10-20%.
Not sure whether the speeds would come down if you had a 600. Granted, it's easier (quicker) to get to a given speed on a modern litre bike, but if you're doing XXX mph, it doesn't matter if you're wringing the neck of a 600 or part opening the throttle on a 1000. I bet you'd still go round the corners at the same speed, even if you were given a Yam M-1. The extra accel out of corners just allows you to get to a given speed quicker when between corners. I think in the real world, unless you're riding a litre bike very quickly on the road, a well ridden 600 could easily keep up. Most supersport riders would still be quicker round a track than a "fast" group trackday rider on a bigger bike.
bennyb24 said:
Forget litre bikes, I reckon petrol bikes have about 5 years left..... then electric will become a viable alternative - the breakeven point doesn't seem too far away for me.
I reckon battery and charging technology will have to evolve a fair bit to make this viable for non-commuter type bikesfergus said:
bennyb24 said:
Forget litre bikes, I reckon petrol bikes have about 5 years left..... then electric will become a viable alternative - the breakeven point doesn't seem too far away for me.
I reckon battery and charging technology will have to evolve a fair bit to make this viable for non-commuter type bikesEsceptico said:
I am not so convinced that electric bikes will take over so easily. The fact that one of (if not the most) popular modification of bikes is the exhaust shows that what the bike sounds like is very important. Not to mention the debates about preferences for number of cylinders and whether they are in line, in a V, boxer, etc. A whisper quiet electric bike with instant go and lots of torque could objectively be better than a piston driven one but would it be better subjectively? Not sure. If it looked like the bikes from Tron maybe. If it looks and goes like an existing bike with no noise and much less mechanical character I'm less sure.
Some form of sound could be designed into the system as a function of the power applied to the motors. A lot of cars have this internally currently.Esceptico said:
I am not so convinced that electric bikes will take over so easily. The fact that one of (if not the most) popular modification of bikes is the exhaust shows that what the bike sounds like is very important. Not to mention the debates about preferences for number of cylinders and whether they are in line, in a V, boxer, etc. A whisper quiet electric bike with instant go and lots of torque could objectively be better than a piston driven one but would it be better subjectively? Not sure. If it looked like the bikes from Tron maybe. If it looks and goes like an existing bike with no noise and much less mechanical character I'm less sure.
I'd buy this in a heartbeat based on looks alone.
sc0tt said:
I'd buy this in a heartbeat based on looks alone.
Agree that looks good. If it sounded like a milk float it would be a pity though!I am not convinced by fake noise. Not into artificial enhancements. My daily drive has fake sound piped into the cabin. Embarrassing to be honest.
When electric bikes really come to the market I will give them a go. Still think that a decent electric bike with a usable range is a way off yet though.
sc0tt said:
I'm in a library at the moment...assume that links to a video where you can hear this bike? If yes what does it sound like?sc0tt said:
I'm in a library at the moment...assume that links to a video where you can hear this bike? If yes what does it sound like?
Imagine how much lighter electric brushless motor powered bikes will be. Personally I look forward to the prospect!
As for litre bike development, I think the limiting factor will be people losing interest in them. They're becoming pointless imho. No use having all that extra power just to require electronics to limit it. Personally I'd much rather see a frugal lightweight Aprilia RS500 twin with 70bhp, 60+mpg weighing no more than 160ish kg fully fuelled etc.
I was pleased to see a Repsol Marquez replica CBR500R wearing an Akra silencer at my local dealer the other day, although 47hp and 195kg is nothing ground breaking, 70mpg is awesome. If they could only make it lighter with proper quality components some more oomph then I think this formula could be onto a winner, like a 4s version of the awesome handling RS250 breed of bikes and original 400cc jap breed, with a decent tank range that litre bikes could only dream of and a less extreme riding position.
It's quite frustrating to see awesome litre bikes like the MV RC, 175kg and over 200hp but who can really utilise all that power on the road, surely that has to ultimately make it somewhat dissatisfying to know you can never really get the most out of it.
As for litre bike development, I think the limiting factor will be people losing interest in them. They're becoming pointless imho. No use having all that extra power just to require electronics to limit it. Personally I'd much rather see a frugal lightweight Aprilia RS500 twin with 70bhp, 60+mpg weighing no more than 160ish kg fully fuelled etc.
I was pleased to see a Repsol Marquez replica CBR500R wearing an Akra silencer at my local dealer the other day, although 47hp and 195kg is nothing ground breaking, 70mpg is awesome. If they could only make it lighter with proper quality components some more oomph then I think this formula could be onto a winner, like a 4s version of the awesome handling RS250 breed of bikes and original 400cc jap breed, with a decent tank range that litre bikes could only dream of and a less extreme riding position.
It's quite frustrating to see awesome litre bikes like the MV RC, 175kg and over 200hp but who can really utilise all that power on the road, surely that has to ultimately make it somewhat dissatisfying to know you can never really get the most out of it.
fergus said:
bennyb24 said:
Forget litre bikes, I reckon petrol bikes have about 5 years left..... then electric will become a viable alternative - the breakeven point doesn't seem too far away for me.
I reckon battery and charging technology will have to evolve a fair bit to make this viable for non-commuter type bikesI think litre bikes have just about reached the pinnacle, not because that can’t be developed but because they won’t sell.
The UK market is quite uncommon with regards to the number of litre sports bikes sold compared to other large capacity bikes and the UK cannot support litre bikes on its own. Add to that the fact that the age of the biker in the western world is rising every year and there comes a point when arthritic knees and artificial hips just aren’t compatible ever shrinking sports bikes.
Having said all that, I thought the same 10 years ago!
The UK market is quite uncommon with regards to the number of litre sports bikes sold compared to other large capacity bikes and the UK cannot support litre bikes on its own. Add to that the fact that the age of the biker in the western world is rising every year and there comes a point when arthritic knees and artificial hips just aren’t compatible ever shrinking sports bikes.
Having said all that, I thought the same 10 years ago!
Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff