Road riding and getting your knee down...
Discussion
I barely get my knee down on track tbh.
It's very much a body position thing though than a speed thing. My mate who does Trackdays was much much slower than me when we both started out. He would get his knee down at every corner, I wouldnt. He would be going 20 mph slower than me through the same corner with his knee on the deck.
I know the track stuff isn't relevant to road riding, but I just wanted to point out that speed isn't the main factor, body (and especially foot) position is
It's very much a body position thing though than a speed thing. My mate who does Trackdays was much much slower than me when we both started out. He would get his knee down at every corner, I wouldnt. He would be going 20 mph slower than me through the same corner with his knee on the deck.
I know the track stuff isn't relevant to road riding, but I just wanted to point out that speed isn't the main factor, body (and especially foot) position is
Ah, the Knee down thread. Its been a while, it normally manifests itself in the form of "f
k I've just binned it at Morrison's (other supermarkets are available) car park trying to get my knee down.
Who had the Cbr f, the black and gold one that crashed doing this? That was a good one.
I remember my first knee down, wtf was that, why haven't I crashed, oh its my knee, yas, RIDING GOD. Over in a blink of an eye. I went from kissing it down until I sorted my suspension to wherever and whenever I wanted to on track.
I'd long for a knee down photo, I'd eagerly troll through the photos after track days and see NOTHING, wtf id think, I got it down for a whole 0.25 seconds, that cameraman is st, he needs to set his blinker rate more or down I dunno.
I'm no going to lie, we've all thought the same, your a lying arse if you say any different, or you cant get your knee down.
In fact I spent most of my day on friday at knockhill fannying about with the knee down for ages for a good photo and because it was fun. So much so I wore the slider almost to the limit indicator in a morning. It was totally to the detriment of my pace and riding, probably....
It was fun and all, but when I went to oulton the other day the novelty had worn off, now the second it goes down I pull it back in and try tip in a bit more. I probably went quicker, maybe.
I don't think I'll ever get my knee down on the road. I don't see the point, too risky, I'm not bothered if I bin it, nor am I bothered if I get hurt. Its the big bill from fixing a road bike that would bother me. That's what stops me continuing it on the road. I'm totally bolt up right when I ride on the road now. Maybe stick the head or knee out once in a while but nothing stupid.
k I've just binned it at Morrison's (other supermarkets are available) car park trying to get my knee down.Who had the Cbr f, the black and gold one that crashed doing this? That was a good one.
I remember my first knee down, wtf was that, why haven't I crashed, oh its my knee, yas, RIDING GOD. Over in a blink of an eye. I went from kissing it down until I sorted my suspension to wherever and whenever I wanted to on track.
I'd long for a knee down photo, I'd eagerly troll through the photos after track days and see NOTHING, wtf id think, I got it down for a whole 0.25 seconds, that cameraman is s
t, he needs to set his blinker rate more or down I dunno.I'm no going to lie, we've all thought the same, your a lying arse if you say any different, or you cant get your knee down.
In fact I spent most of my day on friday at knockhill fannying about with the knee down for ages for a good photo and because it was fun. So much so I wore the slider almost to the limit indicator in a morning. It was totally to the detriment of my pace and riding, probably....
It was fun and all, but when I went to oulton the other day the novelty had worn off, now the second it goes down I pull it back in and try tip in a bit more. I probably went quicker, maybe.
I don't think I'll ever get my knee down on the road. I don't see the point, too risky, I'm not bothered if I bin it, nor am I bothered if I get hurt. Its the big bill from fixing a road bike that would bother me. That's what stops me continuing it on the road. I'm totally bolt up right when I ride on the road now. Maybe stick the head or knee out once in a while but nothing stupid.
moanthebairns said:
In fact I spent most of my day on friday at knockhill fannying about with the knee down for ages for a good photo and because it was fun. So much so I wore the slider almost to the limit indicator in a morning. It was totally to the detriment of my pace and riding, probably....
This is a pure lie. You had barely grazed the surfacemckeann said:
moanthebairns said:
In fact I spent most of my day on friday at knockhill fannying about with the knee down for ages for a good photo and because it was fun. So much so I wore the slider almost to the limit indicator in a morning. It was totally to the detriment of my pace and riding, probably....
This is a pure lie. You had barely grazed the surface
I showed you the f
king thing at lunch. Thebn you told me they are soft as st and you done the same in novice. you then said you need to get R&G ones, you could put them in a grinder all day and not scuff them down. I went oh I never knew that.I then said I had them on the wrong leg.
And you went it doesn't matter
And I went I know but....
UnlEss you looked at wrong one (ie my right which was my left knee slider in the morning but I just swapped them)
legzr1 said:
Have you ridden around the outside of someone getting their knee down?
Please explain to Tight5 - I don't think he believes me
Yep. Gerrards is great for it. Gone round the outside of loads of stuff there where they've been more interested in knee down than corner speed.Please explain to Tight5 - I don't think he believes me
Anyway back to the subject. IMO it's either pointless showing off or pushing too much for the public road. I'm *no* saint wrt pushing on a bit but to get to the stage where knee down is anything more than showing off I'd really really have to be going for it.
To put that into context for the "you're just jealous because you can't" crowd, every track day I'll munch my way through a set of sliders (and sometimes footpegs) but I have never got my knee down on the road. Hanging off on the other hand I do all the time because it means the bike is more upright for any given corner speed.
Knee-down regulars, I have a question, posed by a friend, of course.
My friend was keen to get his knee down, just say he could, while also recognising the benefits of learning to do this in giving the rider more confidence in quite how far you can lean a bike - as Toxicnerve said, it's better than sitting it upright and crashing.
So my friend, keen to have a crack, donned his gear while listening to some inspiration music, I believe "King of Rock n Roll" by Prefab Sprout was the song in particular. A few quick miles down the road and then to a quiet, large roundabout. Taking repeated runs, getting right out of the seat and feeling like it was getting pretty close to touch down. He notes that it's often quicker to keep the bike more upright - but he was pretty surprised by how fast it feels when the ground is getting closer and closer as the bike speeds up and banks more and more. However, on one of the runs as he tried to apply yet more lean (when he should probably have tried to hang off more instead) the back stepped out, he caught it without incident, but what caused that? His bike is an SRAD 600 with Bridgestone BT023 front and a 021 rear - not exactly a massive sporty tyre. Surely the tyre should have still had some grip in reserve, or can you not expect that from a touring tyre approaching max lean? I suppose it's not really designed with that sort of thing in mind tbh. At this point he left for a smaller roundabout on a closed off road. On this roundabout, he managed some pretty impressive lean, but the knee still didn't go down. He is aware of putting the pad of his foot on the end of the peg to allow the leg to pivot out - and at this point on one run his toe slider and a little bit of sole touched down. He had a few more goes but didn't get any closer, so packed it in and headed home as it was getting dark.
So what was my mate doing wrong? The fact his foot covering the end of his peg scraped the tarmac makes me think his peg was about to go down, how did this come before the knee? He assures me his right cheek was right out of the seat, but was it simply a case of his hips not being over far enough?
My friend was keen to get his knee down, just say he could, while also recognising the benefits of learning to do this in giving the rider more confidence in quite how far you can lean a bike - as Toxicnerve said, it's better than sitting it upright and crashing.
So my friend, keen to have a crack, donned his gear while listening to some inspiration music, I believe "King of Rock n Roll" by Prefab Sprout was the song in particular. A few quick miles down the road and then to a quiet, large roundabout. Taking repeated runs, getting right out of the seat and feeling like it was getting pretty close to touch down. He notes that it's often quicker to keep the bike more upright - but he was pretty surprised by how fast it feels when the ground is getting closer and closer as the bike speeds up and banks more and more. However, on one of the runs as he tried to apply yet more lean (when he should probably have tried to hang off more instead) the back stepped out, he caught it without incident, but what caused that? His bike is an SRAD 600 with Bridgestone BT023 front and a 021 rear - not exactly a massive sporty tyre. Surely the tyre should have still had some grip in reserve, or can you not expect that from a touring tyre approaching max lean? I suppose it's not really designed with that sort of thing in mind tbh. At this point he left for a smaller roundabout on a closed off road. On this roundabout, he managed some pretty impressive lean, but the knee still didn't go down. He is aware of putting the pad of his foot on the end of the peg to allow the leg to pivot out - and at this point on one run his toe slider and a little bit of sole touched down. He had a few more goes but didn't get any closer, so packed it in and headed home as it was getting dark.
So what was my mate doing wrong? The fact his foot covering the end of his peg scraped the tarmac makes me think his peg was about to go down, how did this come before the knee? He assures me his right cheek was right out of the seat, but was it simply a case of his hips not being over far enough?
He reckons this pic shows how he is positioning his foot - is this correct? If the foot is on the end of the peg like so, the bike is leaning in and the knee isn't down, do the hips just need to come over further?
Ball of the foot on the end of the peg, toes pointed forwards-ish, heel tucked in to let the upper leg pivot out. Is this right?
As for diesel, he reckons the road was clear - private road of course, so no dirty diesel down. Just a lack of smoothness when pushing for tighter lean, I reckon.
Ball of the foot on the end of the peg, toes pointed forwards-ish, heel tucked in to let the upper leg pivot out. Is this right?
As for diesel, he reckons the road was clear - private road of course, so no dirty diesel down. Just a lack of smoothness when pushing for tighter lean, I reckon.
LoonR1 said:
you can get your knee down at 15 mph if you want
Tis true, there is a bend about 200yards from where I used to live, it's residential and 30mph and I just wanted to do it for the sake of it, so I did, and I very much doubt I broke the speed limit.LoonR1 said:
and you can also do it by looking a proper goon (see Jack Miller's goon riding).
Tis also true. When the 990SMT first came out I took one out for a lengthy test ride. Found a nice big roundabout and basically just planted my knee and did several laps grinning to myself. Given the height of the bike, I was however hanging off like a baboon and probably looked like one too. Bike seemed perfectly happy though.Following several changes of bike it's actually been several years since I last had my knee down (well, apart from chucking the WR at various pieces of foliage) but only last week I was contemplating trying it out on my ratty old R1100RT. Handles well for such a massive great barge, I just haven't been out since to find out whether I can get clear enough of all the tupperware or not!
Edited by CAPP0 on Tuesday 26th May 22:46
Odds on that where he *thinks* his feet are, and where his feet *actually* are are two very different things.
Decked my toe before I decked my knee. Feet feel really tucked in (to avoid decking them), body position feels really far out (probably isn't). Thing is an inch at the pegs is nearly a foot at the knee 'cos the pegs are really low down.
First touchdown was with a BT021/023 as it happens, just the other way round. 021 lethal in the wet, but otherwise fine. Personally that's why I'm not trying on the road, because the surface isn't entirely predictable, but as you wish. Chances are also that it didn't 'step out' and he 'caught' it, just some kind of transient wobble due to some aspect of the surface, ripple whatever. When you're playing those sort of games every little wobble seems like a bit of a moment
For my money it's much harder to do at low (roundabout) speed - only happened when I gave up trying; bike's much more settled in a 70odd mph sweeper (until the dope on top nearly jumps off in surprise at his knee scraping down the tarmac)..
Decked my toe before I decked my knee. Feet feel really tucked in (to avoid decking them), body position feels really far out (probably isn't). Thing is an inch at the pegs is nearly a foot at the knee 'cos the pegs are really low down.
First touchdown was with a BT021/023 as it happens, just the other way round. 021 lethal in the wet, but otherwise fine. Personally that's why I'm not trying on the road, because the surface isn't entirely predictable, but as you wish. Chances are also that it didn't 'step out' and he 'caught' it, just some kind of transient wobble due to some aspect of the surface, ripple whatever. When you're playing those sort of games every little wobble seems like a bit of a moment
For my money it's much harder to do at low (roundabout) speed - only happened when I gave up trying; bike's much more settled in a 70odd mph sweeper (until the dope on top nearly jumps off in surprise at his knee scraping down the tarmac)..
Edited by upsidedownmark on Tuesday 26th May 22:43
upsidedownmark said:
Odds on that where he *thinks* his feet are, and where his feet *actually* are are two very different things.
Of course, this is another likely candidate - when he goes back for another shot I'll tag along and see if I can spot where he is going wrong. It's one thing thinking you're doing it right, but when you're learning it you're unlikely to be getting everything right at the same time. He did agree with you in that the bike felt more stable on a large roundabout at about 45-50mph, rather than a smaller one at 30-35mph. Of course, the ROSPA safety brigade and IOM TT racers club will tell you that you should never hang off at such low speeds and of course you wouldn't if you were trying to set a lap record over your favourite roads, but we're not always racing the clock.
As for catching the slide, he swears it was a conscious effort to stop the slide, but alas, you are probably right about the bike correcting itself.
I think another part of getting it down is probably just having the balls to do it, obviously it can go wrong but once you get the bike over that far it's a bit of a "f
king hell, it goes down THIS far?!" moment, and then you can set about trusting the bike more.LoonR1 said:
A great vid Loon, one I've seen posted here before, Neil is a great rider. Matey boy's body position is probably as crossed up as Neil in the video!Mastodon2 said:
Of course, this is another likely candidate - when he goes back for another shot I'll tag along and see if I can spot where he is going wrong. It's one thing thinking you're doing it right, but when you're learning it you're unlikely to be getting everything right at the same time.
He did agree with you in that the bike felt more stable on a large roundabout at about 45-50mph, rather than a smaller one at 30-35mph. Of course, the ROSPA safety brigade and IOM TT racers club will tell you that you should never hang off at such low speeds and of course you wouldn't if you were trying to set a lap record over your favourite roads, but we're not always racing the clock.
As for catching the slide, he swears it was a conscious effort to stop the slide, but alas, you are probably right about the bike correcting itself.
I think another part of getting it down is probably just having the balls to do it, obviously it can go wrong but once you get the bike over that far it's a bit of a "fking hell, it goes down THIS far?!" moment, and then you can set about trusting the bike more.
Many factors can play a role. When I first got my knee down did it was the same way as your friend. Found a big roundabout and kept circling. Felt like I was right over and at one point got my toe down (so had to move foot). Then got my peg down (almost crashed out of shock as had not expected that). Eventually after a few weekends I did get my knee down. However I think a big part of my problem was my leathers. I had a two piece suit and they were a bit tight. I later bought a one piece race suit where it was much easier to move my knee out and first time I wore them I found it so much easier to get my knee down (even managed for first and possibly last time to get my left knee down on the road ie not on a roundabout). Unfortunately not long after that a dozy pensioner (and a bad decision on my part) resulted in a biggish crash and many years out of the saddle. So perhaps your friend's gear is making it more difficult to stick his knee out.He did agree with you in that the bike felt more stable on a large roundabout at about 45-50mph, rather than a smaller one at 30-35mph. Of course, the ROSPA safety brigade and IOM TT racers club will tell you that you should never hang off at such low speeds and of course you wouldn't if you were trying to set a lap record over your favourite roads, but we're not always racing the clock.
As for catching the slide, he swears it was a conscious effort to stop the slide, but alas, you are probably right about the bike correcting itself.
I think another part of getting it down is probably just having the balls to do it, obviously it can go wrong but once you get the bike over that far it's a bit of a "f
king hell, it goes down THIS far?!" moment, and then you can set about trusting the bike more.When I finally got my knee down it was quite a buzz!
last night, I tried riding some of my b-road commute home without hanging off at all and it felt awful. I felt like I was really high up and there was very little left in reserve if I wanted to suddenly tighten my line mid-corner. The front end felt more vague and the whole thing didn't feel nice and stressed like it usually does when I'm hanging off a bit.
I'm sticking with the hanging off, bit of knee-down method. It feels immeasurably better to me.
I'm sticking with the hanging off, bit of knee-down method. It feels immeasurably better to me.
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