Picked up my 1299 today. I'm still speechless.
Discussion
bass gt3 said:
Ade,
It isn't a question of engine building, or the quality or competency of local builders. What we are talking about here are totally untouched, as supplied in the frame virgin engines. Never opened, fiddled or tampered with. Yet we see big ends and mains failing at 3000kms, pistons cracking at 4000kms, 1198 selector drums and dogs failing with monotonous regularity.
When you compare the off the show room reliability of the Ducati Superbikes that get used for trackdays or racing there's a far higher failure rate compared to other marques used in similar circumstances. For example there's a shed load of zx10's that are raced right up to National level, not a single failure. Same with BMW (now) Honda and Yamaha.
And for reference these are failures that Ducati are replacing engines under warranty so they're not playing the "Race Warranty" card on either. Always serviced at Ducati, correct oil etc yet the 1199 failure rate is starting to look worrisome. And that's why I voiced disquiet about the new 1199R as a race bike. Going by the previous incidence of failures it's difficult to have confidence that this new motor will be any better.
Maybe ask Baz or Steve what a rebuild would cost on this motor and then consider if you'd want to take that risk
And before anyone gets all airiated and vexed, this is related to track bikes only, not road bikes that do a couple of TD's a year. Hopefully you'll be fine until just after the warranty expires
Japanese IL4 engines do report fewer problems 'out of the crate' - it's just down to manufacturing tolerances. BUT (and this is a big but) it's arguable that if you are using these bikes for proper racing, then Ducati would tell you that they expect all their racing bikes (in particular their R models) to be fettled with by race teams. The components in the R engine are either partially specced or over-specced for road work and are ready for additional work to make them work as they should in race applications. The one exception as I've maintained for a while - the 2014 1199R was a disgrace for an R engine as it got by then-homologation rules with the bare minimum. For 2015, they've really upped their game with the new rules. That being said, not sure if Ducati expected non-R bikes to be used for full fat racing, or their R bikes being used for top end racing without modifications to release the power they were designed for (and adjust the tolerances!)It isn't a question of engine building, or the quality or competency of local builders. What we are talking about here are totally untouched, as supplied in the frame virgin engines. Never opened, fiddled or tampered with. Yet we see big ends and mains failing at 3000kms, pistons cracking at 4000kms, 1198 selector drums and dogs failing with monotonous regularity.
When you compare the off the show room reliability of the Ducati Superbikes that get used for trackdays or racing there's a far higher failure rate compared to other marques used in similar circumstances. For example there's a shed load of zx10's that are raced right up to National level, not a single failure. Same with BMW (now) Honda and Yamaha.
And for reference these are failures that Ducati are replacing engines under warranty so they're not playing the "Race Warranty" card on either. Always serviced at Ducati, correct oil etc yet the 1199 failure rate is starting to look worrisome. And that's why I voiced disquiet about the new 1199R as a race bike. Going by the previous incidence of failures it's difficult to have confidence that this new motor will be any better.
Maybe ask Baz or Steve what a rebuild would cost on this motor and then consider if you'd want to take that risk
And before anyone gets all airiated and vexed, this is related to track bikes only, not road bikes that do a couple of TD's a year. Hopefully you'll be fine until just after the warranty expires
Edited by bass gt3 on Tuesday 16th June 02:05
This popped up this morning. 1299 a more compliant, better road bike than new R1 apparently. Maybe it's just me, but I really have no interest in this new R1 as a road bike. The power curve looks dire. It looks like they took all the bad bits from the 1199 Panigale and put them in a Yamaha! Undoubtedly a track weapon though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jQ85wXGoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jQ85wXGoY
spareparts said:
Japanese IL4 engines do report fewer problems 'out of the crate' - it's just down to manufacturing tolerances. BUT (and this is a big but) it's arguable that if you are using these bikes for proper racing, then Ducati would tell you that they expect all their racing bikes (in particular their R models) to be fettled with by race teams. The components in the R engine are either partially specced or over-specced for road work and are ready for additional work to make them work as they should in race applications. The one exception as I've maintained for a while - the 2014 1199R was a disgrace for an R engine as it got by then-homologation rules with the bare minimum. For 2015, they've really upped their game with the new rules. That being said, not sure if Ducati expected non-R bikes to be used for full fat racing, or their R bikes being used for top end racing without modifications to release the power they were designed for (and adjust the tolerances!)
But again, we're not talking race teams or such. Just private individuals who buy a Ducati and do a bit of racing. And when you look at the rpm historogram, there's no signs of over rev or excessive limiter intervention. The level of racing here just doesn't support top level teams like Europe or the UK. In fact no one races a Ducati outside the specific BOTTS class Championship. (Battle of the twins)So whilst they're not babied around, they're not hammered within an inch of their lives or abused in any way that you would consider unreasonable. Being on track they are exposed to a lot of WOT and hard acceleration and deceleration but within the rpm limits of the engine.
As you say, the 2014 R motor is a joke, and whilst many may say the new model is vastly improved, with only 4 in the country, I doubt we'll find out any time soon. And without wanting to sound overly negative, we've heard this tune before.....so it sort of gets hard to believe.
bass gt3 said:
But again, we're not talking race teams or such. Just private individuals who buy a Ducati and do a bit of racing. And when you look at the rpm historogram, there's no signs of over rev or excessive limiter intervention. The level of racing here just doesn't support top level teams like Europe or the UK. In fact no one races a Ducati outside the specific BOTTS class Championship. (Battle of the twins)
So whilst they're not babied around, they're not hammered within an inch of their lives or abused in any way that you would consider unreasonable. Being on track they are exposed to a lot of WOT and hard acceleration and deceleration but within the rpm limits of the engine.
As you say, the 2014 R motor is a joke, and whilst many may say the new model is vastly improved, with only 4 in the country, I doubt we'll find out any time soon. And without wanting to sound overly negative, we've heard this tune before.....so it sort of gets hard to believe.
I'm mighty tempted by the 2015 Pani R... when Steve showed me the Pani R engines stripped down on the bench with different internals compared to the 1299/1199 (very much the same engine), I was like.. Me want! :hammer:So whilst they're not babied around, they're not hammered within an inch of their lives or abused in any way that you would consider unreasonable. Being on track they are exposed to a lot of WOT and hard acceleration and deceleration but within the rpm limits of the engine.
As you say, the 2014 R motor is a joke, and whilst many may say the new model is vastly improved, with only 4 in the country, I doubt we'll find out any time soon. And without wanting to sound overly negative, we've heard this tune before.....so it sort of gets hard to believe.
Fleegle said:
spareparts said:
gwm said:
:haha: not at all, Steve's a good egg; but I'm interested in his biking engineering experience especially with Ducatis I've just read that as 'how many times have you had to fix a Ducati'
3DP said:
This popped up this morning. 1299 a more compliant, better road bike than new R1 apparently. Maybe it's just me, but I really have no interest in this new R1 as a road bike. The power curve looks dire. It looks like they took all the bad bits from the 1199 Panigale and put them in a Yamaha! Undoubtedly a track weapon though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jQ85wXGoY
And when you ride the R1 on road at a fair pace you'll realise that words and power graphs mean little.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jQ85wXGoY
I'm glad that Ducati have finally realised that a bike used mainly on the road should be 'compliant' but don't go thinking the Yamaha is somehow unrideable.
Sure, the R1 is firmly damped and the snatchy throttle in A-mode is an acquired taste - there are far better bikes out there better suited to road-use only but that could be said of any of the latest Superbikes.
legzr1 said:
So it is you
I agree, had an enjoyable year with an 1198S and they were quite savage and a complete handful on twisty, bumpy roads but they were fun - everything a Ducati should be - none of this poncey Panigale bks
Oh aye, the clutch fell off the end of the crank at 900 miles leaving me stranded and the traction control was a total bh and not to be relied upon - turning it off was the only cure then you ran the gauntlet of HUGE torque.
Keep it.
that's the dilema! I demo'd a 1199s last year and loved the quickshifter.I agree, had an enjoyable year with an 1198S and they were quite savage and a complete handful on twisty, bumpy roads but they were fun - everything a Ducati should be - none of this poncey Panigale bks
Oh aye, the clutch fell off the end of the crank at 900 miles leaving me stranded and the traction control was a total bh and not to be relied upon - turning it off was the only cure then you ran the gauntlet of HUGE torque.
Keep it.
Looked at the R and got offered a good px for my 1198, asked the dealer for the numbers on an R but they couldn't be bothered so I didnt get to pull the trigger on one, Was ripe the for the plucking too! oh well, sooooo glad they didnt as I would be looking at this years 'R' in envy!
My 1198 is a bit of a handful and the mid range punch is great, proper power wheelies in 2-3-4 and is great real world fun stunt bike. The Pani is just a little bit too civilised but i'm hoping the 1299 or the new R will be a bit more like it!
1299 106.7 lb/ft @8750
1199R 100.5 lb/ft @10250
Edited by chillo on Wednesday 17th June 17:27
bass gt3 said:
It isn't a question of engine building, or the quality or competency of local builders. What we are talking about here are totally untouched, as supplied in the frame virgin engines. Never opened, fiddled or tampered with. Yet we see big ends and mains failing at 3000kms, pistons cracking at 4000kms,
Pistons cracked on my old 998R @ 7k miles -symptoms were misfiring about 9k rpm almost from new! (post 1500 miles run in etc)Pistons cracked on my old 999R @ 8.5k miles. Big ends/mains had failed, upon splitting the motor discovered cracked pistons. Needed a bore re nikasil coating.
Have got the old pistons still, will take a pic and post.
Both bikes were ridden very hard and thrashed on track days.
Edited by chillo on Wednesday 17th June 17:37
Fleegle said:
The last Ducati I test rode was the 999 when they first came out.
I've not been on one since
Heathen!I've not been on one since
kept my 999r for 5 years as the handling was sublime! (once i had got it set up right!)
Still nothing to touch it handling wise imho (forgetting all this leccy assistance stuff)
chillo said:
bass gt3 said:
It isn't a question of engine building, or the quality or competency of local builders. What we are talking about here are totally untouched, as supplied in the frame virgin engines. Never opened, fiddled or tampered with. Yet we see big ends and mains failing at 3000kms, pistons cracking at 4000kms,
Pistons cracked on my old 998R @ 7k miles -symptoms were misfiring about 9k rpm almost from new! (post 1500 miles run in etc)Pistons cracked on my old 999R @ 8.5k miles. Big ends/mains had failed, upon splitting the motor discovered cracked pistons. Needed a bore re nikasil coating.
Have got the old pistons still, will take a pic and post.
Both bikes were ridden very hard and thrashed on track days.
chillo said:
Fleegle said:
The last Ducati I test rode was the 999 when they first came out.
I've not been on one since
Heathen!I've not been on one since
kept my 999r for 5 years as the handling was sublime! (once i had got it set up right!)
Still nothing to touch it handling wise imho (forgetting all this leccy assistance stuff)
I'm sure the game has been upped since.....but they just don't do it for me. Now if you was to offer me the MH900..........
Mastodon2 said:
I just watched the 44 Teeth comparison and opinions, I thought the 1299 would like the juice but they said the fuel light came on at 60 miles, that is some thirst.
Wow...i guess you get a chance to stretch your legs quite often then I was amazed the other weekend when I had a superduke 1290 and did a few hundred miles on it, I didn't think I was riding economically and still managed over 40mpg, when I eventually filled it up the tank range was showing 320 miles
How can the Ducati be that bad...was it on a track day to do 60 miles to a tank ?
bogie said:
Wow...i guess you get a chance to stretch your legs quite often then
I was amazed the other weekend when I had a superduke 1290 and did a few hundred miles on it, I didn't think I was riding economically and still managed over 40mpg, when I eventually filled it up the tank range was showing 320 miles
How can the Ducati be that bad...was it on a track day to do 60 miles to a tank ?
Nein, I don't have a 1299 sadly, this was a figure quoted from Baron Von Grumble and Alastair Fagan took one out along with an R1, I imagine the pace was brisk, or as brisk as it can be down south. Perhaps Ducati have it dumping loads of fuel in to the cool the pistonheads? I was amazed the other weekend when I had a superduke 1290 and did a few hundred miles on it, I didn't think I was riding economically and still managed over 40mpg, when I eventually filled it up the tank range was showing 320 miles
How can the Ducati be that bad...was it on a track day to do 60 miles to a tank ?
Top bikes though, I'd love a go on one.
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