Lost it tonight...

Author
Discussion

clen666

925 posts

121 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
creampuff said:
A lot of sense
+1

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
3 people of a 600 strong cycling club and you hate all of them? Sounds familiar that sort of attitude wink

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
Cars will lose this battle, its happening already, soon it will be pointless driving in London. We will find a way to deal with deliveries or whatever else 'needs' to be there, but I dare say its likely a lot easier than you think and actually there are quite a few vehicles that do not need to be there.

Cycling accounts for 20% of London traffic I think now, so yes, that is a significant portion of people not clogging up an already creaking rail network, and its only growing, which will accelerate with infrastructure, which is happening now, as you say.
Ahh yes. We will elimate cars. For the Greater Good. The Greater Good.

It's a left-wing fantasy borne of wanting to tell people what to do because you know what is best for everyone. There are about 30 million journeys by all modes of transport in London each working day. About 600,000 are by bicycle. Insignificant. If you wanted to maximise the economic benefit to the capital, you would discourage cycling and encourage rail and bus use, then use the road space for cycles for motorised vehicle who have to be there, such as delivery vehicles.

This would have the added benefit of making a life a whole lot more pleasant for pedestrians who no longer would need to look out for getting run over by cyclists at pedestrians after all the other traffic has stopped, except the self-righteous cyclists.

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
Well cycling probably is better for people than any other method of getting to work as its physical exertion, which in a country of fat people is required. I also drive, just so you know.

20% of all journeys in Central London are on a bike apparently, according to TFL, so its not a small amount, I like driving, but its a totally pointless and boring thing to do anywhere near London now unless you're out at an unsociable hour, there are too many cars, or there aren't enough roads, whatever. I personally don't mind getting the train to work, or cycling to work, both have their merits sometimes, but the momentum of change is not with the motorcar, I think also that many more people would take to a bike if they felt it was more safe, its a far cleaner, quicker and healthy way to get about, yet for some reason in this country its not accepted, a shame then that it will be forced on people who don't cycle whether they like it or not.

Oh, and many many many more pedestrians are killed by cars in London than bikes...

Edited by okgo on Monday 31st August 21:14

Hungrymc

6,642 posts

136 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
Biggest threat to the growth of cycling is the behaviour and attitude of this aggressive and idiotic minority. It's a shame that the rest of the cycling community want to gloss over it as a none issue. It is an issue as they are creating a more aggressive and antagonistic relationship between cyclists and everyone else.

They have become the biggest issue holding cycling back from wider acceptance.

I said earlier, 99% are good people. There are a few idiots (405 man, uphillfreewheeler) and we all need to avoid making excuses for them.

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
Well cycling probably is better for people than any other method of getting to work as its physical exertion, which in a country of fat people is required. I also drive, just so you know.

20% of all journeys in Central London are on a bike apparently, according to TFL, so its not a small amount, I like driving, but its a totally pointless and boring thing to do anywhere near London now unless you're out at an unsociable hour, there are too many cars, or there aren't enough roads, whatever. I personally don't mind getting the train to work, or cycling to work, both have their merits sometimes, but the momentum of change is not with the motorcar, I think also that many more people would take to a bike if they felt it was more safe, its a far cleaner, quicker and healthy way to get about, yet for some reason in this country its not accepted, a shame then that it will be forced on people who don't cycle whether they like it or not.
The 20% figure is highly selective. It applies to a very small area only and it applies only in peak hour. For overall cycle journeys in London, cycles make up 2% of all trips. It also ignores walking, which is probably the most common method of all for getting around in Central London. Walking is even more healthy than cycling, because you can do it anywhere without any equipment. I'd like to see Central London more pedestrian friendly. Less cyclists would be a good way to achieve this. Every day I see some sort of pedestrian-cyclist altercation, usually something like the cyclist has bullied their way through where they either shouldn't be, like on the footpath, or has gone through anyway where the pedestrian has priority, like on a pedestrian crossing. Sometimes when I'm walking past Tate Modern I play count the cyclist on Millennium Bridge, there are always a few there, getting in the way of pedestrians despite the no cycling signs. Critical Mass is just the extreme end of this pretty thick wedge.

Private motor cars are also a pretty bad way of getting around Central London, this is why if you actually look at the vehicles on Central London roads during the day, there aren't many private cars.

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not a member.

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
creampuff said:
The 20% figure is highly selective. It applies to a very small area only and it applies only in peak hour. For overall cycle journeys in London, cycles make up 2% of all trips. It also ignores walking, which is probably the most common method of all for getting around in Central London. Walking is even more healthy than cycling, because you can do it anywhere without any equipment. I'd like to see Central London more pedestrian friendly. Less cyclists would be a good way to achieve this. Every day I see some sort of pedestrian-cyclist altercation, usually something like the cyclist has bullied their way through where they either shouldn't be, like on the footpath, or has gone through anyway where the pedestrian has priority, like on a pedestrian crossing. Sometimes when I'm walking past Tate Modern I play count the cyclist on Millennium Bridge, there are always a few there, getting in the way of pedestrians despite the no cycling signs. Critical Mass is just the extreme end of this pretty thick wedge.

Private motor cars are also a pretty bad way of getting around Central London, this is why if you actually look at the vehicles on Central London roads during the day, there aren't many private cars.
Fair enough, I don't know how they collect them.

I think London is pretty ped friendly, there are pavements on every single bit of road, it doesn't get much better than that. While you may see these altercations nothing comes of them. The deaths of people walking are almost 100% car related, I see altercations between drivers every day too, means nothing.

There are plenty during rush hour I can assure you, I ride past them all sat there like lemmings.

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
I think London is pretty ped friendly, there are pavements on every single bit of road, it doesn't get much better than that. While you may see these altercations nothing comes of them..
London was more pedestrian friendly in the past, when there were fewer cyclists. Since the Olympics the number of cyclists has increased as has the level of aggressiveness, usually by white adult males under about 40 years old. It's pretty rare I see a female cyclist an adolescent cyclist or a black cyclist doing anything anti-social, there's some profiling for you. I'd be interested to see the profile of the Critical Mass riders, but watching a Youtube vid of them will just be too bothering.

Nothing comes of cyclist-pedestrian altercations because it goes down like this: cyclist does something stupid, like cycle across a pedestrian crossing with pedestrians on it after filtering past stopped motor traffic, pedestrian moves to avoid cyclist or cyclist moves to avoid pedestrian, cyclist tells pedestrian to get fked, cyclist rides off. Seen it a thousand times, been victim to it about a dozen times.

Many cyclists aren't afraid to tell motorists to get fked regardless of who is right or who is wrong, because cyclists are faster than motor vehicles in London and cyclists know they are effectively unidentifiable whereas motorists are identifiable via their registration plate.

Many cyclists aren't afraid or shy about telling pedestrians to get fked, because they can say "get fked" and be gone before the pedestrian can do anything. This has happened to me and I've seen it happen to others, many times. It has always been the cyclist who has been at fault and the pedestrian who has dared to walk along the footpath or cross the road with a green man.

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
Same as cars, I see it all the time outside my office where cars go though the crossing, through reds, I know what is more dangerous, a bike or a car going through a red at 20 mph...


creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Monday 31st August 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
Same as cars, I see it all the time outside my office where cars go though the crossing, through reds, I know what is more dangerous, a bike or a car going through a red at 20 mph...
I've heard it all before. There are some motor vehicle drivers who run amber or just red lights. As a pedestrian, this isn't a problem as you just look around when your little green man comes on to cross the road. The number of motor vehicle drivers who go through lights which have been red for a while is basically zero. As is zero the number of motor vehicle drivers who will see a vehicle stopped in front of them at a red light and then decide to overtake and cross the junction against the red light.

OTOH plenty of cyclists go through lights which have been red for a long time and plenty of cyclists overtake stopped motor traffic to go through lights which are red, have been red for a long time, that the cyclist knows are red and where the junction has pedestrians crossing.

Even the CTC, who support cycling, have worked out that in the UK, cycling is almost as great a risk to pedestrians as cars are
http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_pub...
The number of pedestrians injured by cycles is low in absolute numbers, but that is only because cycles account for only 1/50th the amount of traffic as motor vehicles. Infact I'm guessing in London, where vehicle drivers are aware of pedestrians and don't drive that fast and cyclists have the power of self-righteousness and self-given moral superiority on their side, I'd say cycles are more a risk to pedestrians than cars. For sure I'm pretty confident that if I'm crossing a pedestrian crossing, once the traffic has stopped I still need to take a damn good look for bicycles and regularly get out their way, which may also involve being told to get fked.

WaferThinHam

1,680 posts

129 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not sure the guy was a "nutter" for knocking her off (Not sure it was justified either). You wouldn't flip someone the bird whilst walking down the street and not expect anything to happen.....

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
Oh behave yourself, while she was not smart in doing that, someone running after and pushing a woman off a bike into the road is NOT normal behaviour or something I would expect anyone to do over something so trivial.

IN51GHT

8,777 posts

209 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
Sounds a less than ideal situation.

Not all cyclists are like that though.

MarshPhantom

9,658 posts

136 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
Same as cars, I see it all the time outside my office where cars go though the crossing, through reds, I know what is more dangerous, a bike or a car going through a red at 20 mph...
How many accidents have you seen?

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
None, never seen a bike hit anyone either. Don't think that is the point we're arguing though? I already said bikes kill almost no peds in London, cars kill almost all peds in London, so despite me not watching the crossing at all hours they're getting hit and killed somewhere!

WaferThinHam

1,680 posts

129 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
Oh behave yourself, while she was not smart in doing that, someone running after and pushing a woman off a bike into the road is NOT normal behaviour or something I would expect anyone to do over something so trivial.
What made her give him the finger? I wouldn't class that as normal behaviour either. If you're going to go around swearing at people then at least have the stones to back it up.

okgo

37,847 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
It was a woman, if a woman gave you lip would you sock her in the nose like you might a bloke?

Get a grip.

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
okgo said:
None, never seen a bike hit anyone either. Don't think that is the point we're arguing though? I already said bikes kill almost no peds in London, cars kill almost all peds in London, so despite me not watching the crossing at all hours they're getting hit and killed somewhere!
That's just making excuses for the many bad cyclists. A bicycle- pedestrian collision is unlikely to kill the pedestrian, so talking about pedestrians getting killed makes bad cyclists look much better than they actually are.

By distance travelled on non- motorways, cyclists are almost as likely to injure and hospitalise pedestrians as cars are.

In Central London where cars would be lucky to reach 30mph, I'd even guess that cyclists injure more pedestrians than cars, based on car miles and bicycle miles.

No Bend

591 posts

121 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
WaferThinHam said:
What made her give him the finger? I wouldn't class that as normal behaviour either. If you're going to go around swearing at people then at least have the stones to back it up.
She probably didn't have 'stones' to back up anything ...