And so it begins....
Discussion
I haven't done an update on the R1200RT for a few weeks because we're having a bit of an issue, me and her. The fuelling, which I've been unsure about since day 1 but thought may sort itself, is not right. Its not a quirk, its not a foible, its just s
t. In any one hour commute, it will cough and or splutter 3 or 4 times. Sometimes if I coast to a stop, I can pull the clutch in and it will die altogether. At traffic lights, I have to be stopped with around 1600rpm dialled up, just to be sure I can move off smartly without stalling and low speed filtering requires constant "safety blips", where I'm just revving it regularly to ensure that if I need throttle, its ready to go.
I have refrained from mentioning much about the dealer I bought it from. They have been utter pants from the start to be honest. Rather than sell me this bike I basically had to wrestle it off them, doing all the chasing of the salesman myself who was never that interested in selling it to me in the first place. Typically, I rang the salesman I bought it off last week but couldn't reach him, left a message and like clockwork he didn't call back. Tuesday I rang him and told him the problem (he said it might require them to "balance the bike again" - they specialise in BS at this place) and he said he will get the service dept to call me. They didn't. Rang again Wednesday and he said he would make sure they called me. They didn't. Rang this morning and tried to explain the issue to a 23 yr old girl on the service desk, directly. The earliest booking they have is for September 30th. They might be able to "look at it" on Sept 11th.
"Define looking at it" I say.
"Well, they might be able to sort of take a look and see what the problem is." she says. Oh right, but not fix it?
I could get it recovered under the BMW approved used Warranty apparently, but then be left with no transport. Apparently you only get a loan bike if the bike is unrideable (which if it stalls mid corner or mid manoeuvre when I'm leaning against the acceleration, it might well be, only that will be my fault I expect).
So in my mind I hear the words "And so it begins." because this already feels like a long, arduous battle full of apathy and non-help with no satisfactory outcome and much inconvenience.
I really don't know if I have the energy for it or whether I just take it to an indy and fork out myself. Trouble is its under BMW finance and I need to keep the bike stock and just making the phone call to an indy will probably void the warranty somehow. Anyone got any experience of this or suggestions?
t. In any one hour commute, it will cough and or splutter 3 or 4 times. Sometimes if I coast to a stop, I can pull the clutch in and it will die altogether. At traffic lights, I have to be stopped with around 1600rpm dialled up, just to be sure I can move off smartly without stalling and low speed filtering requires constant "safety blips", where I'm just revving it regularly to ensure that if I need throttle, its ready to go.I have refrained from mentioning much about the dealer I bought it from. They have been utter pants from the start to be honest. Rather than sell me this bike I basically had to wrestle it off them, doing all the chasing of the salesman myself who was never that interested in selling it to me in the first place. Typically, I rang the salesman I bought it off last week but couldn't reach him, left a message and like clockwork he didn't call back. Tuesday I rang him and told him the problem (he said it might require them to "balance the bike again" - they specialise in BS at this place) and he said he will get the service dept to call me. They didn't. Rang again Wednesday and he said he would make sure they called me. They didn't. Rang this morning and tried to explain the issue to a 23 yr old girl on the service desk, directly. The earliest booking they have is for September 30th. They might be able to "look at it" on Sept 11th.
"Define looking at it" I say.
"Well, they might be able to sort of take a look and see what the problem is." she says. Oh right, but not fix it?
I could get it recovered under the BMW approved used Warranty apparently, but then be left with no transport. Apparently you only get a loan bike if the bike is unrideable (which if it stalls mid corner or mid manoeuvre when I'm leaning against the acceleration, it might well be, only that will be my fault I expect).
So in my mind I hear the words "And so it begins." because this already feels like a long, arduous battle full of apathy and non-help with no satisfactory outcome and much inconvenience.
I really don't know if I have the energy for it or whether I just take it to an indy and fork out myself. Trouble is its under BMW finance and I need to keep the bike stock and just making the phone call to an indy will probably void the warranty somehow. Anyone got any experience of this or suggestions?
I don't want to bag them publicly in case its all been a series of misunderstandings and in actual fact they are renowned for their customer service and I've just been desperately unlucky. But yes, its an official BMW Motorrad outlet. In Guildford. Guildford in Surrey. And the name rhymes with "mines".
A few years back a mate of mine had appalling service from an official BMW dealer when the motor on his 1200GS fell to bits in a couple of thousand miles. After a long and overly protracted wrangle - he was basically getting no where - he finally contacted BMW UK directly (who ever that may be, sorry, no names or nos.) who, I gather, came down pretty hard on the dealer and stumped up for a full rebuild from the crank up (tho', surprisingly, not a replacement motor). He did have to pay some costs (oil, consumables?) but after going over the heads of the dealership things were sorted pretty quickly. Also, interestingly, the dealership lost their official BMW status shortly afterwards and, I think, have since gone down the pan - read into that what you will.
Reardy Mister said:
I don't want to bag them publicly in case its all been a series of misunderstandings and in actual fact they are renowned for their customer service and I've just been desperately unlucky. But yes, its an official BMW Motorrad outlet. In Guildford. Guildford in Surrey. And the name rhymes with "mines".
Just so I am not confused would that be Guildford in Surrey, which has a Moorfield Road and the most likely outstanding DJ Deals retailer....your right not to mention their name of course just in case ;-)Just in case you do go down the route of wanting to sort it out yourself, having dealt with a very similar problem in the past on my dad's R1100S I'd suggest that you try changing the ignition coils before looking at the fuelling. They're stick coils that sit inside the cylinder head (they're a single unit with the spark plug cap built in, like a modern car), and one or both of them breaking down can lead to an intermittent misfire and stalling at the lights.
The chaps at Motorworks BMW are usually quite helpful so it may be worth giving them a call - we solved the problem with a couple of used coils about four years ago and the problem hasn't reared it's head again since.
The chaps at Motorworks BMW are usually quite helpful so it may be worth giving them a call - we solved the problem with a couple of used coils about four years ago and the problem hasn't reared it's head again since.
During my BMW days the guys in Guildford were excellent. In fact the best service I've ever had from a motorcycle dealer. I didn't even by the bike from them so I'm surprised you've got an issue. Maybe things have changed. Might be a bit too successful for their own good at this time of year. But they're not cowboys just by the sounds of it too busy.
Personally I'd get on the bike and ride down there and speak to someone face to face. From your post I assume you've bought a Approved used BMW from them. It ain't right and they need to sort it. As it's a commute bike you also need a loaner whilst they look at it. Speak to someone that can make it happen and it will.
Personally I'd get on the bike and ride down there and speak to someone face to face. From your post I assume you've bought a Approved used BMW from them. It ain't right and they need to sort it. As it's a commute bike you also need a loaner whilst they look at it. Speak to someone that can make it happen and it will.
FSEngineer said:
Just in case you do go down the route of wanting to sort it out yourself, having dealt with a very similar problem in the past on my dad's R1100S I'd suggest that you try changing the ignition coils before looking at the fuelling. They're stick coils that sit inside the cylinder head (they're a single unit with the spark plug cap built in, like a modern car), and one or both of them breaking down can lead to an intermittent misfire and stalling at the lights.
The chaps at Motorworks BMW are usually quite helpful so it may be worth giving them a call - we solved the problem with a couple of used coils about four years ago and the problem hasn't reared it's head again since.
+1 for MotorworksThe chaps at Motorworks BMW are usually quite helpful so it may be worth giving them a call - we solved the problem with a couple of used coils about four years ago and the problem hasn't reared it's head again since.
Also, give Steve @ MotoScot (St. Albans) a call. He's the best indy I've ever used for bikes, and was a "senior BMW technician" for 20 odd years prior to setting up on his own.
I'd also suspect coils. Main dealers are parts fitters, not mechanics in most cases.
Funny - I took an R nineT for a test ride from the dealer you (didn't) mention, and the sales guy I dealt with (Peter) was responsive, called me back when necessary and followed up by phone and email to my satisfaction.
I was supposed to have the bike from 3 to 7pm, but the bike's clock was set wrong. By the time I realised, I was too far away to get back in time. Called Pete and let him know about my booboo, and he told me not to worry. He put my bike in their secure compound and asked me just to bring the bike back by 10am the following morning when the next test ride was booked.
Although I haven't bought a bike from them, they still seemed like a good outfit to deal with. Maybe because they don't have my money yet...
BTW I loved the R nineT and found the torquey motor and light handling addictive.
I was supposed to have the bike from 3 to 7pm, but the bike's clock was set wrong. By the time I realised, I was too far away to get back in time. Called Pete and let him know about my booboo, and he told me not to worry. He put my bike in their secure compound and asked me just to bring the bike back by 10am the following morning when the next test ride was booked.
Although I haven't bought a bike from them, they still seemed like a good outfit to deal with. Maybe because they don't have my money yet...
BTW I loved the R nineT and found the torquey motor and light handling addictive.
It's a common-ish problem with the 1200 engine. Mine used to do it, and then stopped.
Cures? There are quite a few things to try, but the common ones are:
1. Check the valve clearances, and check them again. It's worth playing around with them a little within the tolerances to see whether there's any improvement. This is what seemed to work on my bike (a 2010 GS, if that helps).
2. Try some posh fuel. They're not supposed to need it, but mine runs smoother on the 98 RON stuff, and I seem to remember it helped with the stalling.
3. Throttle body synch, ideally using the GS911 or similar, but you can do it with a Carbtune manometer type device.
4. Accelerator module, like this: http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Instructions/pa... Seems to work for some people, made no difference to my bike
5. Start replacing ignition bits n bobs, as others suggest. However, this is an expensive route, so I'd probably try 1-4 first.
There are god knows how many other stories on the net of people trying to solve a similar problem with the R1200 engine, and you can throw a lot of time and money at this one... Good luck.
Cures? There are quite a few things to try, but the common ones are:
1. Check the valve clearances, and check them again. It's worth playing around with them a little within the tolerances to see whether there's any improvement. This is what seemed to work on my bike (a 2010 GS, if that helps).
2. Try some posh fuel. They're not supposed to need it, but mine runs smoother on the 98 RON stuff, and I seem to remember it helped with the stalling.
3. Throttle body synch, ideally using the GS911 or similar, but you can do it with a Carbtune manometer type device.
4. Accelerator module, like this: http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Instructions/pa... Seems to work for some people, made no difference to my bike
5. Start replacing ignition bits n bobs, as others suggest. However, this is an expensive route, so I'd probably try 1-4 first.
There are god knows how many other stories on the net of people trying to solve a similar problem with the R1200 engine, and you can throw a lot of time and money at this one... Good luck.
Complaining at a higher level helps. I had a crap experience at my local BMW car dealer.
Went to have the summer wheels put on (in place of the winter wheels). Should only take an hour. Almost two hours in I get told they are almost finished but one of the tyres has a nail in it...but they put it on anyway. After some choice words concerning their stupidity I got them to put the winter wheels back on (as I had a long journey the following day). They gave me the offending wheel and tyre and was advised to take it to be repaired (they were
not allowed or able to do so themselves).
I got a follow up call from BMW customer services asking if I was happy with the service I received. I was not! My feedback led to a call from the branch manager. He arranged for my car to be collected and replaced with an M4. They took mine away and replaced the tyre - all at no cost. Only fault in their service is that they sorted it too quickly as I was hoping to keep the M4 for the weekend
Went to have the summer wheels put on (in place of the winter wheels). Should only take an hour. Almost two hours in I get told they are almost finished but one of the tyres has a nail in it...but they put it on anyway. After some choice words concerning their stupidity I got them to put the winter wheels back on (as I had a long journey the following day). They gave me the offending wheel and tyre and was advised to take it to be repaired (they were
not allowed or able to do so themselves).
I got a follow up call from BMW customer services asking if I was happy with the service I received. I was not! My feedback led to a call from the branch manager. He arranged for my car to be collected and replaced with an M4. They took mine away and replaced the tyre - all at no cost. Only fault in their service is that they sorted it too quickly as I was hoping to keep the M4 for the weekend
My recent experiences of BMW have been shocking
Bikes. They "forgot" to get the bike registered and rated for insurance by Thatcham. That meant that no insurer could quote for it and left the only option as BMW Insurance, who unsurprisingly could insure it for a figure that equated to five times my normal insurance premium. BMW UK had zero interest in discussing it.
Cars. My M3 is simply the worst car I have ever owned. It develops a new fault every 6-8 weeks resulting in 2 weeks of the dealer scratching their heads and not knowing how to resolve it. BMW UK couldn't care less, the dealer seems to see it as an opportunity to try to stitch me up on trade in value and sell me a new car. It is with solicitors currently.
They don't care, as their cars are now the default company car amd sell in the millions. Upsetting a few customers along the way is irrelevant to their overall situation.
Bikes. They "forgot" to get the bike registered and rated for insurance by Thatcham. That meant that no insurer could quote for it and left the only option as BMW Insurance, who unsurprisingly could insure it for a figure that equated to five times my normal insurance premium. BMW UK had zero interest in discussing it.
Cars. My M3 is simply the worst car I have ever owned. It develops a new fault every 6-8 weeks resulting in 2 weeks of the dealer scratching their heads and not knowing how to resolve it. BMW UK couldn't care less, the dealer seems to see it as an opportunity to try to stitch me up on trade in value and sell me a new car. It is with solicitors currently.
They don't care, as their cars are now the default company car amd sell in the millions. Upsetting a few customers along the way is irrelevant to their overall situation.
I rode a R1200RT for the first time the other day. Brand new 15 plate with 650 miles on the clock. I thought that it was ridiculously easy to stall it, doing so 3 times in the first 3 miles. Really didn't rate it myself, flacid peformance and a farty exhaust note, neither did my mate who was suffering it while his K1200S was getting the gearbox replaced under warranty.
BMW service is only any good for day to day servicing and BUYING BMWs. Once you have a fault that isn't a default replace/reprogram your screwed. last year my car sat in the dealers for 11 weeks, while they changed the stereo, not the whole stereo, just the head unit. 5 units later they realised they were ordering the wrong one.
It only mysteriously got fixed when I suggested to BMW finance that I was rejecting the car if it wasn't ready in 5 days.
I should have learnt my lesson when my 3 series tourer spent over a month of my 18 month ownership in the dealership, oh it was always fixed, and cleaned, and collected/delivered/loaner, but it was new, not 10 years old. I think BMW have just hit the point Mercedes did a while ago, they have nice looking cars, they just don't work for long.
I would dearly love to try an S1000RR, but I will never, ever own another BMW.
It only mysteriously got fixed when I suggested to BMW finance that I was rejecting the car if it wasn't ready in 5 days.
I should have learnt my lesson when my 3 series tourer spent over a month of my 18 month ownership in the dealership, oh it was always fixed, and cleaned, and collected/delivered/loaner, but it was new, not 10 years old. I think BMW have just hit the point Mercedes did a while ago, they have nice looking cars, they just don't work for long.
I would dearly love to try an S1000RR, but I will never, ever own another BMW.
Thanks for all the mechanical tips and experience folks. Rang the dealer again today to get some help from the salesman. He assured me the service department would definitely definitely call today. That was at 8:30am. If don't hear something today I will call the dealer principal but to be honest, I don't hold high hopes.
I am interested in the angle I have seen taken elsewhere with BMW. To my mind, I bought that bike predominantly to commute on. As it is, I am having to try and compensate in my riding for it being not able to safely do that job (yesterday it conked out mid turn and I had to take a big foot-dab to keep it upright). That surely makes it unfit for purpose?
ETA: Yes, its a BMW Approved used. 2010, bought with less than 9000 miles on it.
I am interested in the angle I have seen taken elsewhere with BMW. To my mind, I bought that bike predominantly to commute on. As it is, I am having to try and compensate in my riding for it being not able to safely do that job (yesterday it conked out mid turn and I had to take a big foot-dab to keep it upright). That surely makes it unfit for purpose?
ETA: Yes, its a BMW Approved used. 2010, bought with less than 9000 miles on it.
Esceptico said:
Complaining at a higher level helps.
This is true.An polite and detailed email to BMW Customer Services got the dealer feeling far more keen to sort out the problems with my bike, and suddenly there was no more talk of a slipping clutch at 6k miles failing because of 'fair wear and tear'!
Here's the address:
http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/uk/en/index.html?con...
Thanks for that contact.
Update:
As expected, I didn't get call yesterday from anyone. So today we upped the ante. I rang the man in charge of the Motorrad side of the dealership (unavailable, left a message) and then I went down there.
Whilst in there, Manager called back, so he came out of his office and was most helpful. He also had a word with the Service manager, who was also most helpful. From a service angle, the dealer really redeemed themselves this morning. Right up to the Manager even agreeing to drop a loan bike off at my house and take mine in for them to have a proper look up its skirt. BMW however, have not gone up in my estimations. Let me explain.
I managed to get them to plug the bike in to the diagnostics machine this morning and predictably the response came back "it doesn't show any faults". At this stage I am prepared for and even understanding of the service manager having to tow the BMW line to some extent. But I'm not having it.
After some more discussion the next line of defence was "do you blip the throttle? Oh don't blip the throttle, it makes it worse. You'll have to change your riding you see."
Nooo, nope. Not having that.
Next line of defence was "it's a characteristic of that engine." Nope, an engine cutting out before it's asked to, under normal operating conditions to is not a characteristic. It's a fault.
After a bit more parrying with what I can only describe as a beleaguered but well intentioned service manager, we got down to a few truths. Here are a few things you may be interested to know:
The bike is now booked to be looked at in 10 days when it wil have one or two parts replaced just to be sure (sensors of sorts for the throttle, which I assume is fly by wire). Will wait and see what happens.
Update:
As expected, I didn't get call yesterday from anyone. So today we upped the ante. I rang the man in charge of the Motorrad side of the dealership (unavailable, left a message) and then I went down there.
Whilst in there, Manager called back, so he came out of his office and was most helpful. He also had a word with the Service manager, who was also most helpful. From a service angle, the dealer really redeemed themselves this morning. Right up to the Manager even agreeing to drop a loan bike off at my house and take mine in for them to have a proper look up its skirt. BMW however, have not gone up in my estimations. Let me explain.
I managed to get them to plug the bike in to the diagnostics machine this morning and predictably the response came back "it doesn't show any faults". At this stage I am prepared for and even understanding of the service manager having to tow the BMW line to some extent. But I'm not having it.
After some more discussion the next line of defence was "do you blip the throttle? Oh don't blip the throttle, it makes it worse. You'll have to change your riding you see."
Nooo, nope. Not having that.
Next line of defence was "it's a characteristic of that engine." Nope, an engine cutting out before it's asked to, under normal operating conditions to is not a characteristic. It's a fault.
After a bit more parrying with what I can only describe as a beleaguered but well intentioned service manager, we got down to a few truths. Here are a few things you may be interested to know:
- it's a known problem. Dealers haven't been able to fix it and so far BMW has been unable or unwilling to fix it. This chap knew exactly the issue I was having and was even able to replicate it in the workshop at will.
- it's a problem with the twin cam engines, the previous single cam engines don't seem to do it
- it's because they run too lean
- it particularly effects bikes used for commuting which are used at slow speeds and low revs with constant on/off of the throttle
- the BMW ecu and map is not customisable to compensate
- so well known is the issue that when this service manager took his dealership demo bike across Europe, he fitted a power commander to it for the trip
- he told me if I took my bike to the alps on a hot day with warm and thin air, it would be almost unrideable
- the met police had the same issue when they upgraded to the twin cam engines and their bikes came back en masse with exactly the same complaint
The bike is now booked to be looked at in 10 days when it wil have one or two parts replaced just to be sure (sensors of sorts for the throttle, which I assume is fly by wire). Will wait and see what happens.
Golgarth said:
ah, the good old "they all do that sir" response.
It surely can't be acceptable that you have to modify a vehicle to make it rideable.
BMW have dropped their quality so far as to be laughable in recent years (both cars and bikes).
Indeed. If the answer comes back that it can't be put right without a PC, my response will be "well please by all means, fit a PC and Akro pipe at your expense and while you're there, ensure my warranty stays in tact." Which I imagine will go over like malaria. It surely can't be acceptable that you have to modify a vehicle to make it rideable.
BMW have dropped their quality so far as to be laughable in recent years (both cars and bikes).
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