It's official, Stoner rejoins Ducati

[Steve Bass]

FourWheelDrift said:

Steve Bass said:

And have CS show what a steaming pile of chod the 1199RS really is??
Even Ducati haven't figured out how to massage the rules to get it to win. Casey is good, but not THAT good

I guess you didn't follow World Superbikes this year.

Chaz Davies - 5x Wins, 7x 2nd and 6x 3rd to finish 2nd in the Championship spliting the 2 dominant Kawasakis of Rea and Sykes.

Oh I really did. And the year before, and the many years before that.
Show me a Championship win by the 1199 if it's so good.
Consider EVERY bike Ducati have campaigned in World Superbikes to date up to the 1199 has won multiple Championships.
Since Checa in 2011 it's been the Kawasaki and Aprilia show.

[Steve Bass]

AW111 said:

Since only one make can win the championship, by your definition every other bike in the field is a piece of st...

Even the brand that beats the winning make in 5 races, and takes 2nd ahead of the winner's sister bike?

No one is there for 2nd place.
Before the 1199, the longest Ducati had between Championships was 2 years. Curently, it's four and counting and the 1199 still looks like it's not got the recipe right. By any measure the 1199 is a failure. How can you argue otherwise??
Do you ever see manufacturers put stickers on their bikes that say " Came really close in a few Races but never actuall Won" or do they crow about Championship wins?
Here's the title history in case you don't believe. The numbers are Wins/2nds/3rds

1988 United States Fred Merkel Honda RC30 2 2 1 Rumi Honda
1989 United States Fred Merkel Honda RC30 3 2 5 Rumi Honda
1990 France Raymond Roche Ducati 851 8 7 2 Squadra Corse Ducati Lucchinelli
1991 United States Doug Polen Ducati 888 17 4 0 Fast by Ferracci Ducati
1992 United States Doug Polen Ducati 888 9 4 2 Team Police Ducati
1993 United States Scott Russell Kawasaki ZXR750-R 5 12 1 Team Muzzy Kawasaki
1994 United Kingdom Carl Fogarty Ducati 916 10 4 0 Virginio Ferrari Ducati Corse
1995 United Kingdom Carl Fogarty Ducati 916 13 6 0 Virginio Ferrari Ducati Corse
1996 Australia Troy Corser Ducati 916 7 5 1 Promotor Racing Team
1997 United States John Kocinski Honda RC45 9 4 4 Castrol Honda-HRC
1998 United Kingdom Carl Fogarty Ducati 916 3 6 5 Ducati Performance
1999 United Kingdom Carl Fogarty Ducati 996 11 6 2 Ducati Performance
2000 United States Colin Edwards Honda VTR1000 SP/RC51 8 2 1 Castrol Honda-HRC
2001 Australia Troy Bayliss Ducati 996R 6 6 3 Ducati Infostrada
2002 United States Colin Edwards Honda VTR1000 SP-2/RC51 11 10 4 Castrol Honda-HRC
2003 United Kingdom Neil Hodgson Ducati 999F03 13 7 0 Ducati FILA
2004 United Kingdom James Toseland Ducati 999F04 3 9 2 Ducati FILA
2005 Australia Troy Corser Suzuki GSX-R1000 K5 8 5 5 Alstare Suzuki Corona
2006 Australia Troy Bayliss Ducati 999F06 12 3 1 Ducati Xerox
2007 United Kingdom James Toseland Honda CBR1000RR 8 5 1 Hannspree Ten Kate Honda
2008 Australia Troy Bayliss Ducati 1098 F08 13 6 5 Ducati Xerox Team
2009 United States Ben Spies Yamaha YZF-R1 14 2 1 Yamaha World Superbike Team
2010 Italy Max Biaggi Aprilia RSV4 1000 10 2 2 Aprilia Alitalia Racing
2011 Spain Carlos Checa Ducati 1098R 15 0 6 Althea Racing
2012 Italy Max Biaggi Aprilia RSV4 1000 5 2 4 Aprilia Racing Team
2013 United Kingdom Tom Sykes Kawasaki ZX-10R 9 4 5 Kawasaki Racing Team
2014 France Sylvain Guintoli Aprilia RSV4 1000 5 8 3 Aprilia Racing Team
2015 United Kingdom Jonathan Rea Kawasaki ZX-10R 14 7 2 Kawasaki Racing Team

AW111 said:

ps A joke from my childhood, just for you :

"How do you know when a planeload of poms arrives in Australia?"
"The whining sound continues after the engines are shut down

Stoner is symptomatic of the general Australian Sub Species....
You can joke, but how's this for some uncomfortable truths...

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/news-london-2012/wh...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304139/Au...
http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/28/aussie-aussie...

I'll stop there before it gets too uncomfortable...

[AW111]

Steve Bass said:

AW111 said:

Since only one make can win the championship, by your definition every other bike in the field is a piece of st...

Even the brand that beats the winning make in 5 races, and takes 2nd ahead of the winner's sister bike?

No one is there for 2nd place.
Before the 1199, the longest Ducati had between Championships was 2 years. Curently, it's four and counting and the 1199 still looks like it's not got the recipe right. By any measure the 1199 is a failure. How can you argue otherwise??

I am not arguing whether the 1199 is a failure or not, just disagreeing with your assertion that every year, every bike but the championship winner is a piece of st?

[Reardy Mister]

Steve Bass said:

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/news-london-2012/wh...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304139/Au...
http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/28/aussie-aussie...

I'll stop there before it gets too uncomfortable...

That's what a galactic sense of entitlement and zero world view, will do for a nation.

[Steve Bass]

AW111 said:

..... your assertion that every year, every bike but the championship winner is a piece of st?

Where did I specifically say that? You said that. I said the 1199 is a piece of st, and by Ducati standards it is.

[Steve Bass]

Reardy Mister said:

Steve Bass said:

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/news-london-2012/wh...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304139/Au...
http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/28/aussie-aussie...

I'll stop there before it gets too uncomfortable...

That's what a galactic sense of entitlement and zero world view, will do for a nation.

I'd wager I've seen more of the world than you, and not on a 2 week holiday...
Funny how you love to dish it but get quite fragile when it comes back.
As for World view, I'd say you're on stony grund there mate. And from an Aussie living in.... NOT Australia
The prosecution rests M'lud.. You're far too easy to bait.

[Reardy Mister]

Steve Bass said:

Reardy Mister said:

Steve Bass said:

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/news-london-2012/wh...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304139/Au...
http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/28/aussie-aussie...

I'll stop there before it gets too uncomfortable...

That's what a galactic sense of entitlement and zero world view, will do for a nation.

I'd wager I've seen more of the world than you, and not on a 2 week holiday...
Funny how you love to dish it but get quite fragile when it comes back.
As for World view, I'd say you're on stony grund there mate. And from an Aussie living in.... NOT Australia
The prosecution rests M'lud.. You're far too easy to bait.

I was talking about Australia. I *think* that means I was agreeing.

And you say I'm too easy to bait...

Edited by Reardy Mister on Tuesday 24th November 13:50

[AW111]

Steve Bass said:

AW111 said:

..... your assertion that every year, every bike but the championship winner is a piece of st?

Where did I specifically say that? You said that. I said the 1199 is a piece of st, and by Ducati standards it is.

Steve Bass said:

If this, maybe that, coulda, woulda, shoulda...

If a Ducati doesn't take the Championship, it's a pile of shyte. No other metric is worth consideration. They're not there for the wooden spoon.

[Steve Bass]

AW111 said:

Steve Bass said:

AW111 said:

..... your assertion that every year, every bike but the championship winner is a piece of st?

Where did I specifically say that? You said that. I said the 1199 is a piece of st, and by Ducati standards it is.

Steve Bass said:

If this, maybe that, coulda, woulda, shoulda...

If a Ducati doesn't take the Championship, it's a pile of shyte. No other metric is worth consideration. They're not there for the wooden spoon.

I said the Ducati. Specifically the 1199
Where did i say every bike? Honda, Kawasaki et al?? Your extrapolation is based on fitting what I said to what you think i said...

Is engrish not ur ferst langwidge?

[AW111]

Steve Bass said:

I said the Ducati. Specifically the 1199
Where did i say every bike? Honda, Kawasaki et al?? Your extrapolation is based on fitting what I said to what you think i said...

Is engrish not ur ferst langwidge?

Given that the POS Ducati beat Honda et al (and the #2 kawasaki), they must all be st too.

I repeat : I am not defending Ducati, just pointing out the implications of your post.

Ever heard of logic? You should try it some time : it may just change your life.

[dukeboy749r]

AW111 said:

Reardy Mister said:

I am rather dubious of someone who quit because he didn't like the circus, returning as a brand ambassador for Ducati, which will be the biggest circus in the paddock.

One take on this is that he felt the circus was a distraction when he was racing for world championships.
Being paid good money to be a "brand ambassador", combined with some testing and a few wildcard rides, is a totally different matter.

Having said that, I hope he is back for real. Like him or hate him, he was the first of the "new generation" riders who wasn't intimidated by Rossi's mind games, and beat him repeatedly, which Rossi (and fans) appear to have never forgiven him for.

Well said.

and the fanboi mentality that suggests that because we mentioned another rider returning we must be sycophantic. So, I am not watching Stoner for his personality. I watched him because he was able to take the fight to Rossi and I don;t happen to be a mssive Rossi fan. he is a super rider, make no doubt, but he just doesn't make me warm to him.

Stoner, well, regardless of his persona off track, his riding on it spoke for itself.

So, I;ll happily keep rolling my eyes when posts just berate someone's personal style, but when in fact what we should be commenting on, for a racer, is their riding. Surely?

[Reardy Mister]

dukeboy749r said:

AW111 said:

Reardy Mister said:

I am rather dubious of someone who quit because he didn't like the circus, returning as a brand ambassador for Ducati, which will be the biggest circus in the paddock.

One take on this is that he felt the circus was a distraction when he was racing for world championships.
Being paid good money to be a "brand ambassador", combined with some testing and a few wildcard rides, is a totally different matter.

Having said that, I hope he is back for real. Like him or hate him, he was the first of the "new generation" riders who wasn't intimidated by Rossi's mind games, and beat him repeatedly, which Rossi (and fans) appear to have never forgiven him for.

Well said.

and the fanboi mentality that suggests that because we mentioned another rider returning we must be sycophantic. So, I am not watching Stoner for his personality. I watched him because he was able to take the fight to Rossi and I don;t happen to be a mssive Rossi fan. he is a super rider, make no doubt, but he just doesn't make me warm to him.

Stoner, well, regardless of his persona off track, his riding on it spoke for itself.

So, I;ll happily keep rolling my eyes when posts just berate someone's personal style, but when in fact what we should be commenting on, for a racer, is their riding. Surely?

I've said elsewhere many times that I want to see him back racing and that he quit too soon for my liking. But I wonder if all the people who say "I'm only interested in his riding" will keep schtum when he starts getting short with the press? The persistent media and politics is part of the being a high level athlete. He cited it as a reason for leaving yet has re-joined squarely in the focus of both. I'd like to know what if anything has changed.

[Steve Bass]

AW111 said:

Given that the POS Ducati beat Honda et al (and the #2 kawasaki), they must all be st too.

I repeat : I am not defending Ducati, just pointing out the implications of your post.

Ever heard of logic? You should try it some time : it may just change your life.

I stated the Ducati, by not winning a Championship compared to it's forebears is a piece of st. Accepted you don't disagree.
But where is the extrapolation that any bike that doesn't win by default a piece of st? Thats YOUR logic. Now you're putting words in my mouth!
Ever heard of assuming? It's making an arse uof you right about now

But keep on biting.. i can do this all day

[mckeann]

So it's a piece of st. But it's better than the bike they sold before it (was it the 1098? I don't follow fiat). So does that make that a piece of st too if this one is better??

[Biker's Nemesis]

Can we get back on topic calling stoner a wker please

[mckeann]

Biker's Nemesis said:

Can we get back on topic calling stoner a wker please

Yes Dad. Sorry Dad. I love Stoner Dad.

[Steve Bass]

mckeann said:

So it's a piece of st. But it's better than the bike they sold before it (was it the 1098? I don't follow fiat). So does that make that a piece of st too if this one is better??

1098R.. 2 Championships in 4 years . 1199 .... Zero Championships in 4 years. Bit of a difference.

[Steve Bass]

woowahwoo said:

Steve Bass said:

mckeann said:

So it's a piece of st. But it's better than the bike they sold before it (was it the 1098? I don't follow fiat). So does that make that a piece of st too if this one is better??

1098R.. 2 Championships in 4 years . 1199 .... Zero Championships in 4 years. Bit of a difference.

You have already explicitly excluded any argument that involves applying this logic relative to the other bikes/manufacturers, so I don't know what we can discuss around circumstances and context.

Your conclusion seems end at : 'Ducati won some championships before, but they didn't win it this time. Therefore, the bike is "a pile of shyte"'

Have another read.

Look at Ducati's history, and I reiterate, DUCATI's. What relevance does any other manufacturer have when saying the 1199 is st? Or do you subscribe to the "...everyone else is st too so that's ok??" philosophy?
The previous longest gap between Championships was 2 seasons. In those seasons, the honours were usually taken by a mix of teams, proving that their machines were there or there abouts and capable of taking the crown. Yet the Ducati has failed to take top honours in 4 years, the last being Checa on a 1098R in 2011.
So no, not "they didn't win it this time" but try "for a LONG time" in the context of Ducati's previous successes. Or do they now mean nothing as a benchmark against which the 1199 should be compared?
Add the wholseal staff changes Ducati Team WSBK have gone through seeking success and what other conclusion would you draw?
So are you saying history now carries no weight, provenance or expectation? Should we not be measured by our previuos failures or successes? Prove to me the 1199 isn't st on it's own merits and not referencing other manufacturers then. If this is what you're trying to say??

[fleegle]

Biker's Nemesis said:

Can we get back on topic calling stoner a wker please

But surely we should be rating his riding, not his personality. You don't even know him, so how can you judge him like that.....that is just the actions of someone being shallow and narrow minded

Shame on you



Disturbed of London

[mckeann]

But the 1199 has set faster laptimes than the 1098 at almost ever circuit. So the 1199 is better.