Teen dead and another injured after police chase moped in lo

[snorky782]

creampuff said:

Well a criminal investigation is stated, not just an investigation to have a look at what may have been going on. By the IPCC who appear to have an anti-police agenda, for example recently having arrested the police officer who shot an armed suspect in their car while they were waiting to break someone out of custody.

"IPCC commissioner Jennifer Izekor said: "We have gathered sufficient evidence in this investigation to determine that criminal offences may have been committed by the police officers involved in this pursuit in relation to the standard of their driving.

Then maybe, just maybe Plod have exceeded the legal limits in this pursuit. It's unlikely that the Met have just decided "Oh dear, Mrs Mysonisapromisingfootballer is very upset. We'd better hang two officers out to dry."

[creampuff]

snorky782 said:

Then maybe, just maybe Plod have exceeded the legal limits in this pursuit. It's unlikely that the Met have just decided "Oh dear, Mrs Mysonisapromisingfootballer is very upset. We'd better hang two officers out to dry."

This is a criminal investigation by the IPCC, not the Metropolitan Police. The Metropolitan Police cannot tell the IPCC what to do.

Criminals steal things, commit crimes, go about armed, try to evade arrest or whatever and sometimes it works out badly for them and they end up injured or dead. Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Unless you want an impotent police force whose officers expect to be criminally prosecuted and criminally investigated every time they attempt to arrest somebody and the suspect gets injured and so those same police officers just say "fk it, I don't get paid enough to risk jail for this" then you had better accept than when you commit a serious crime, things can go wrong and you can end up dead and the police should have support, not be prosecuted.

Edited by creampuff on Wednesday 24th February 12:37

[dudleybloke]

Unless the cops rammed the scooter into the van its all the dead scrotes fault.
He was in control of the scooter, not the cops.

[black-k1]

dudleybloke said:

Unless the cops rammed the scooter into the van its all the dead scrotes fault.
He was in control of the scooter, not the cops.

There are laws to follow. Being proven to have broken those laws makes you a criminal, whether you started out as a scrote or a police officer. Let’s wait and see what is proven before jumping on too many band wagons.

[TooMany2cvs]

black-k1 said:

dudleybloke said:

Unless the cops rammed the scooter into the van its all the dead scrotes fault.
He was in control of the scooter, not the cops.

There are laws to follow. Being proven to have broken those laws makes you a criminal, whether you started out as a scrote or a police officer. Let’s wait and see what is proven before jumping on too many band wagons.

There are two different issues being conflated.

Did the scrote die SOLELY because of his own abysmal riding? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Should the plods have let him bugger off into the distance unchallenged? Perhaps.

It is the second which the IPCC are determining.

[Markyvespa]

I hope the "Yoots" involved were those who tried to nick mine at 4am, luckily my Vespa had an alarm and woke me up.. and as I ran toward the window I saw three of them on two other -probably stolen- scooters.. TBH though, the lesson learnt for them should have been getting caught and getting injured and not death.. well at least for one of them.

[Desiato]

Markyvespa said:

I hope the "Yoots" involved were those who tried to nick mine at 4am, luckily my Vespa had an alarm and woke me up.. and as I ran toward the window I saw three of them on two other -probably stolen- scooters.. TBH though, the lesson learnt for them should have been getting caught and getting injured and not death.. well at least for one of them.

That sounds familiar, whereabouts are you based? PM me if you prefer.

[black-k1]

TooMany2cvs said:

black-k1 said:

dudleybloke said:

Unless the cops rammed the scooter into the van its all the dead scrotes fault.
He was in control of the scooter, not the cops.

There are laws to follow. Being proven to have broken those laws makes you a criminal, whether you started out as a scrote or a police officer. Let’s wait and see what is proven before jumping on too many band wagons.

There are two different issues being conflated.

Did the scrote die SOLELY because of his own abysmal riding? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Should the plods have let him bugger off into the distance unchallenged? Perhaps.

It is the second which the IPCC are determining.

I've highlighted the bit you seem to be having trouble with.

creampuff said:

"IPCC commissioner Jennifer Izekor said: "We have gathered sufficient evidence in this investigation to determine that criminal offences may have been committed by the police officers involved in this pursuit in relation to the standard of their driving.

[TooMany2cvs]

black-k1 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

black-k1 said:

dudleybloke said:

Unless the cops rammed the scooter into the van its all the dead scrotes fault.
He was in control of the scooter, not the cops.

There are laws to follow. Being proven to have broken those laws makes you a criminal, whether you started out as a scrote or a police officer. Let’s wait and see what is proven before jumping on too many band wagons.

There are two different issues being conflated.

Did the scrote die SOLELY because of his own abysmal riding? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Should the plods have let him bugger off into the distance unchallenged? Perhaps.

It is the second which the IPCC are determining.

I've highlighted the bit you seem to be having trouble with.

creampuff said:

"IPCC commissioner Jennifer Izekor said: "We have gathered sufficient evidence in this investigation to determine that criminal offences may have been committed by the police officers involved in this pursuit in relation to the standard of their driving.

Well, quite.

[Vipers]

Next time you catch a thief, sit him down, give him a biscuit and a cup of tea, and be careful you don't spill it on him, you will probably find you have committed a crime your self.

What is up with this bloody country,

[srob]

Vipers said:

Next time you catch a thief, sit him down, give him a biscuit and a cup of tea, and be careful you don't spill it on him, you will probably find you have committed a crime your self.

What is up with this bloody country,

Nothing is up with this bloody country. I think it's perfectly reasonable that they're being investigated, and personally I wouldn't want to live in a country where the police were given free reign to do as they please without any risk of consequence.

If you want to live in a society like that there's many to choose from and often plenty of room as the locals are usually seen fleeing in the other direction.

If they've done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear - I don't see the issue?

[Prof Prolapse]

[Desiato]

srob said:

If they've done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear - I don't see the issue?

I think the problem at present is that the Police appear to be suspended and investigated for virtually everything they do, which even if you are innocent of any wrong doing is stressful.

In the meantime the poor little mite who has just committed a crime, probably putting a hard working tax payer into an inconvenienced and strained financial position gets to swan around laughing. Because he knows the worst he will probably get is a ticking off by a clown in a wig, and maybe a fine. The fine will most likely be nowhere near the amount that the victims insurance has just increased by, never mind his excess, vehicle depreciation and the cost in both time and money of having to source another vehicle. Just because some believes they have the right to take something that they cannot be arsed to work and pay for.

And the next time the PC has to make a choice about chasing a villain he will think twice because of all the paperwork and hoops he will have to jump through proving he did the right thing, all without the benefit of hindsight, CCTV and a week or two to deliberate his choices.





I will get off my now

[Vipers]

Desiato said:

srob said:

If they've done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear - I don't see the issue?

I think the problem at present is that the Police appear to be suspended and investigated for virtually everything they do, which even if you are innocent of any wrong doing is stressful.

In the meantime the poor little mite who has just committed a crime, probably putting a hard working tax payer into an inconvenienced and strained financial position gets to swan around laughing. Because he knows the worst he will probably get is a ticking off by a clown in a wig, and maybe a fine. The fine will most likely be nowhere near the amount that the victims insurance has just increased by, never mind his excess, vehicle depreciation and the cost in both time and money of having to source another vehicle. Just because some believes they have the right to take something that they cannot be arsed to work and pay for.

And the next time the PC has to make a choice about chasing a villain he will think twice because of all the paperwork and hoops he will have to jump through proving he did the right thing, all without the benefit of hindsight, CCTV and a week or two to deliberate his choices.





I will get off my now

Explains my thinking absolutely.

[creampuff]

Desiato said:

I think the problem at present is that the Police appear to be suspended and investigated for virtually everything they do, which even if you are innocent of any wrong doing is stressful.

Quite.

People who seem to think the increasingly common IPCC criminal investigations of individual police officers doing their jobs should reflect on the possibility that this may one day lead to all police officers standing back and doing nothing. One day you may be the victim of a crime and a policeman may stand back and not help you; for why should they risk criminal prosecution, a criminal record or jail to help you and to enforce the law?

As for police being accountable: you must not travel much if you think British police are anything other than the most accountable in the world already.

Edited by creampuff on Thursday 25th February 20:10

[3DP]

Desiato said:

srob said:

If they've done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear - I don't see the issue?

I think the problem at present is that the Police appear to be suspended and investigated for virtually everything they do, which even if you are innocent of any wrong doing is stressful.

In the meantime the poor little mite who has just committed a crime, probably putting a hard working tax payer into an inconvenienced and strained financial position gets to swan around laughing. Because he knows the worst he will probably get is a ticking off by a clown in a wig, and maybe a fine. The fine will most likely be nowhere near the amount that the victims insurance has just increased by, never mind his excess, vehicle depreciation and the cost in both time and money of having to source another vehicle. Just because some believes they have the right to take something that they cannot be arsed to work and pay for.

And the next time the PC has to make a choice about chasing a villain he will think twice because of all the paperwork and hoops he will have to jump through proving he did the right thing, all without the benefit of hindsight, CCTV and a week or two to deliberate his choices.





I will get off my now

Yep - there is a balance to be had between Brazilian police lynch mobs and the massive moral hazard of not chasing or arresting scrotes for fear they might kill themselves, or get injured, or might have only been carrying a replica gun.

The IPCC seems to be a 100% politically motivated organisation that has to be seen to be treating cops like 'have a go heros' and criminals. The CPS is just the same. All to appease an urban community that does nothing to help itself or root out the problems in its own community. Easier to blame the government and police.

In most right thinking minds, as long as the coppers didn't mow the kid down, anything else happening is the kid's own doing. It should be open and shut, just like shooting an armed, drug dealing criminal in the head when going for his illegal gun in a car.

Far too much time is given to reviewing the whole thing. You ran from the police, you crashed by yourself, you died. Tough st. You were in a car with a bunch of yardies with illegal guns, you were shot dead - tough st. These are not random acts of police brutality by Judge Dredd characters - these are honest police trying to catch career criminals who have no concern for their own or other's safety.

[srob]

Desiato said:

I think the problem at present is that the Police appear to be suspended and investigated for virtually everything they do, which even if you are innocent of any wrong doing is stressful.

In the meantime the poor little mite who has just committed a crime, probably putting a hard working tax payer into an inconvenienced and strained financial position gets to swan around laughing. Because he knows the worst he will probably get is a ticking off by a clown in a wig, and maybe a fine. The fine will most likely be nowhere near the amount that the victims insurance has just increased by, never mind his excess, vehicle depreciation and the cost in both time and money of having to source another vehicle. Just because some believes they have the right to take something that they cannot be arsed to work and pay for.

And the next time the PC has to make a choice about chasing a villain he will think twice because of all the paperwork and hoops he will have to jump through proving he did the right thing, all without the benefit of hindsight, CCTV and a week or two to deliberate his choices.





I will get off my now

I'd hazard a guess that if a policeman is in a pursuit that ends with the vehicle being followed being involved in a fatal accident it's been investigated for quite some time, yet you make it sound like its some modern phenomena?

I had my pride and joy RVF400 nicked when I was 18. I couldn't afford another one because the insurance was too high. Would I wish whoever nicked it dead? No, of course I wouldn't.

[Desiato]

srob said:

Would I wish whoever nicked it dead? No, of course I wouldn't.

Not necessarily dead, but that's where we differ.......

[srob]

Desiato said:

Not necessarily dead, but that's where we differ.......

So what do you want to happen then? The police chase them until they have an accident that maybe breaks a leg or an arm or maybe a back if it's a really nice bike they nicked?

That's the point - it's uncontrolled. That's why a civilised nation wants a judge and jury to deal with it, and that's why people flee countries where there is no control.

Your ideas are fine and dandy, we'd all like to see someone who's wronged us end up in tears but eventually it all ends in chaos and just isn't possible or sensible. People hark on about 'the good old days' but that's balls - it's never been that different. Just now that the Daily Mail and Facebook give you a minute by minute reason to be outraged you hear more about it.

Edited by srob on Thursday 25th February 21:28

[creampuff]

srob said:

That's the point - it's uncontrolled. That's why a civilised nation wants a judge and jury to deal with it, and that's why people flee countries where there is no control.

The only way for "a judge and jury to deal with it" is if the police officer is prosecuted in every instance something unfortunate happens to a suspected criminal. Is this what you want to happen?

srob said:

Your ideas are fine and dandy, we'd all like to see someone who's wronged us end up in tears but eventually it all ends in chaos and just isn't possible or sensible. People hark on about 'the good old days' but that's balls - it's never been that different. Just now that the Daily Mail and Facebook give you a minute by minute reason to be outraged you hear more about it.

The recent spate of criminal investigations of the police come from the IPCC. The IPCC has only been in existence since 2004, so this is different to the past. I don't see this has anything to do with either sympathy towards criminals or alternatively wishing criminals end up dead. In this case the criminal stole a scooter and attempted to evade arrest. In the course of evading arrest, they crashed and ended up dead. That isn't the fault of the police and the police arresting criminals won't end in "chaos", it will just end in criminals being arrested and prosecuted.