This is starting to make a bit of sense
Discussion
In terms of track driving, I think that values of GT and RS cars are disporportionate to their track performance/risk/viability. Track mods are frowned upon by beardy/collector man, devaluing cars that should be held in higher regard (in my opinion). A 997RS is currently valued at a 3 x multiplier of a 997 cup. I remeber when my 997 cup had a far higher value that a 996RS or 997Gen1 RS. That kind of made sense to me. In terms of performance there is no comparison between a 997 cup and a 991RS. Yet the Cuppie is valued at 5 x less the car. Hollinger sequentials are far more economical to run these days as early 997 cups are no longer racing in Carrera cup where Porsche internals were - understandibly - required to compete. Hollinger internals are no different, they just dont have 'Porsche' stamped on them.
If I bend the Cuppie, no one will be bothered as long as the chasis is straight and the engine and box have low hours. If i bend my 997 Clubbie the market will take quite a different view. That's my logic in buying this little car to use on the track instead. Much as I was tempted to modify my 997 gen 1 clubsport, this made a lot more sense to me.
I wonder how many more GT car owners will be tempted to take this route. The road car market will have to fall a very long way to change my view.
88racing said:
Certainly a bargain to buy a Cup but the rebuild costs are frightening - put me off getting one for last season. And you bend it then try to get a new shell.
Different beasts to race than to track day. The last few percent takes a lot more out of them. To be honest the engines hang together for a very long time. Porsche now reccomnend leak down tests at 75 hours (was 50) but I raced one very successfully with a lot more hours than that on it. Even if they are down on compression they still run ok, just a little down on power. You will have to go some to bend a chassis in one. It's the box that always worried me - nightmare stories of rebuild costs. I'm told that they are now a lot more affordable. We shall see. Could you put a manual H pattern box in one? That could be an idea if the sequential did burst at some point althpugh those aren't that cheap either.
The downside with the cup car is having to trailer it everywhere but you are right, the relative value for the job in hand is astounding.
The downside with the cup car is having to trailer it everywhere but you are right, the relative value for the job in hand is astounding.
Trev450 said:
I came very close to purchasing a 997.1 gt3 rs in 2013 which would have been used for quite a few track days. I'm glad I didn't now given their 'inflated' values and the precious nature of potential buyers.
that doesn't make sense surely? If you had bought one in 2013 and gone on to track it a fair bit, unless you pranged it, the car would still be worth considerably more than what you paid for it? the comparison against what it would be worth had you not ever tracked it is neither here nor there in this case....There are downsides to running cup cars. I think that 996's make a little more sense than a 997 because of the box. Racing cars have a very tough life and condition varies a lot more than toad cars. The lifed component factor is far less of an issue in a track day scenario. The big risks are potential problems arising from previous poor maintenance. In terms of costs, tyres are the biggest consumable. We would get 40mins from a set of Mich's in Carrera cup but that was more about being competitive. I have done a few track days for sponsors before and got through on a used set just fine.
It will be interesting to see how viable running the Cuppie is. I'll post up an honest appraisal throughout the year as a guide to others considering doing the same thing.
What I can tell you is that the performance and visceral experience of driving 996/7 cup is on a completely different level to road going GT cars - which in themselves very quick. That can cause a worry to inexperienced drivers on the same day.
It will be interesting to see how viable running the Cuppie is. I'll post up an honest appraisal throughout the year as a guide to others considering doing the same thing.
What I can tell you is that the performance and visceral experience of driving 996/7 cup is on a completely different level to road going GT cars - which in themselves very quick. That can cause a worry to inexperienced drivers on the same day.
There is something strangely appealing about they way they always sound like a bag of spanners going down the pit lane. I have helped source a couple of really nice ones in the last couple of seasons, both of which I'd happily have bought myself. Sadly one found a wall at Donington just after having had at least £25k spent on engine and gearbox rebuilds after the season before. They do not appear to appreciate in price like the road cars do - unless they have a really outstanding history like an ex-Sean Edwards 986 a friend of mine owns.
Yep totally the right car but most of 991RS's end up in TESCO's car park, will never be driven quickly or set their eyes on a race track !
In terms of track driving, I think that values of GT and RS cars are disporportionate to their track performance/risk/viability. Track mods are frowned upon by beardy/collector man, devaluing cars that should be held in higher regard (in my opinion). A 997RS is currently valued at a 3 x multiplier of a 997 cup. I remeber when my 997 cup had a far higher value that a 996RS or 997Gen1 RS. That kind of made sense to me. In terms of performance there is no comparison between a 997 cup and a 991RS. Yet the Cuppie is valued at 5 x less the car. Hollinger sequentials are far more economical to run these days as early 997 cups are no longer racing in Carrera cup where Porsche internals were - understandibly - required to compete. Hollinger internals are no different, they just dont have 'Porsche' stamped on them.
If I bend the Cuppie, no one will be bothered as long as the chasis is straight and the engine and box have low hours. If i bend my 997 Clubbie the market will take quite a different view. That's my logic in buying this little car to use on the track instead. Much as I was tempted to modify my 997 gen 1 clubsport, this made a lot more sense to me.
I wonder how many more GT car owners will be tempted to take this route. The road car market will have to fall a very long way to change my view.
Steve Rance said:
In terms of track driving, I think that values of GT and RS cars are disporportionate to their track performance/risk/viability. Track mods are frowned upon by beardy/collector man, devaluing cars that should be held in higher regard (in my opinion). A 997RS is currently valued at a 3 x multiplier of a 997 cup. I remeber when my 997 cup had a far higher value that a 996RS or 997Gen1 RS. That kind of made sense to me. In terms of performance there is no comparison between a 997 cup and a 991RS. Yet the Cuppie is valued at 5 x less the car. Hollinger sequentials are far more economical to run these days as early 997 cups are no longer racing in Carrera cup where Porsche internals were - understandibly - required to compete. Hollinger internals are no different, they just dont have 'Porsche' stamped on them.
If I bend the Cuppie, no one will be bothered as long as the chasis is straight and the engine and box have low hours. If i bend my 997 Clubbie the market will take quite a different view. That's my logic in buying this little car to use on the track instead. Much as I was tempted to modify my 997 gen 1 clubsport, this made a lot more sense to me.
I wonder how many more GT car owners will be tempted to take this route. The road car market will have to fall a very long way to change my view.
isaldiri said:
Trev450 said:
I came very close to purchasing a 997.1 gt3 rs in 2013 which would have been used for quite a few track days. I'm glad I didn't now given their 'inflated' values and the precious nature of potential buyers.
that doesn't make sense surely? If you had bought one in 2013 and gone on to track it a fair bit, unless you pranged it, the car would still be worth considerably more than what you paid for it? the comparison against what it would be worth had you not ever tracked it is neither here nor there in this case....What could be done with regards to set up though that would result in less expense on the consumables front?
Less aggressive geometry (running track day tyres for further)?
More road/track biased pads?
The gearbox thing is obviously a huge financial undertaking but for me, trails ring would become the biggest chore I think.
Less aggressive geometry (running track day tyres for further)?
More road/track biased pads?
The gearbox thing is obviously a huge financial undertaking but for me, trails ring would become the biggest chore I think.
Steve Rance said:
It shows the fundamental lack of understanding of the car by the buying market that cars that are tracked are in some way stigmatised
Does it not just show that there are more people in the market to buy a car that can be enjoyed on roads than a solely track only machine?Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff