Ear Defenders.

[Pothole]

julian64 said:

I never wear them.

I'm completely happy that its affect on my hearing isn't significant, but its affect on my area perception is.

Long story short I need all the advantage I can get while motorcycling, and when the inevitable day comes when I'm lying in a hospital bed I don't want to have to think its because I intentionally dulled one of my senses

You are intentionally dulling your hearing by not wearing protection.

[neelyp]

Prof Prolapse said:

You get disorientated wearing ear plugs, what are you a bat?

I do think at low speeds it's fairly quiet, but the bottom line is earplugs are proven to reduce hearing loss, and the noise from riding without them is proven to cause real perceivable damage.

You can't argue with Julian, don't you know he's a doctor so is bound to be right about these things.

What I do know is that if he were to come to my place of work and refuse to wear earplugs "because they affect what I sense going on round about me" he'd get sacked. That's in an environment quieter than being on a bike at 70mph.
To deny that constant loud noise isn't harmful to hearing is ridiculous, especially from a doctor.

[Tall_Paul]

All the time unless I'm nipping round the corner, max 30mph.

They don't numb your hearing that much, just cut out the harmful wind noise. I can hear sirens before the vehicle is even visible, often I'm looking around for a good minute before they appear in my mirror.

[Pothole]

julian64 said:

OverSteery said:

julian64 said:

I never wear them.

I'm completely happy that its affect on my hearing isn't significant, but its affect on my area perception is.

Long story short I need all the advantage I can get while motorcycling, and when the inevitable day comes when I'm lying in a hospital bed I don't want to have to think its because I intentionally dulled one of my senses

If you do long motorway journeys you will almost certainly damage your hearing. Look up tinnitus, not funny. Your attitude sounds like a heavy smoker being "completely happy" that he has never had lung cancer. The evidence of hearing damage is compelling.

I used to ride with foam plugs, but have been converted to Auritech, which are far less 'isolating' but still give protection.

Look up motorcycle accident, not funny.

I think you'll find my opinions on lung cancer and smoking would be a little different.

Could you look up the difference between affect and effect, just to make yourself more credible?

[speckledspaniard]

T challenged a mate on this, he refused to wear them as he "preferred to hear what the bike is doing"...how the feck can you hear what the bike is doing above wind noise at 70mph +.

To not wear them is absolutely ridiculous in my book

a bit disconcerting at first but v quickly adapt

[julian64]

neelyp said:

You can't argue with Julian, don't you know he's a doctor so is bound to be right about these things.

What I do know is that if he were to come to my place of work and refuse to wear earplugs "because they affect what I sense going on round about me" he'd get sacked. That's in an environment quieter than being on a bike at 70mph.
To deny that constant loud noise isn't harmful to hearing is ridiculous, especially from a doctor.

Hmm if I don't mention I'm a doctor you bring it up, and if I do mention I'm a doctor I'm somehow browbeating you.

You need to make your own decisions, once understanding all the facts.

I've said that the research is undeniable but just for your benefit I will say it again. Persistent high volume noise will inevitably damage your hearing. Its a well documented process recognised in industry and proven. Short duration mild level noise has a lesser impact reduced by the ears ability to turn its amplification system down In response to loud noise which is probably temporary protection we all have to mid range noise exposure.

However I don't have a single patient I look after with the words 'Deafness caused by motorcycling' in their notes. I do however have a few motorcyclists even in my small patch killed each year on a motorcycle, and more permanently damaged to the point whereby they can no longer carry on their chosen career. The extent to which these might be helped by not wearing earplugs is almost impossible to prove in the statistical noise. If the statistics were so clear cut why aren't hearing centres up and down the country disproportionately filled with bikers?

So after weighing up both sides I would take a pragmatic approach of advising people that earplugs for comfort or to avoid hearing damage should not be their major concern on a bike, and whenever this subject is bought up on biker banter someone always comes out with the 'its a no brainer to wear ear plugs' which I think AS A BIKER is wrong.

You must make your own decisions.

[MarkRSi]

speckledspaniard said:

a bit disconcerting at first but v quickly adapt

Exactly this, I didn't wear ear plugs for the first month or two of riding, seemed fine IIRC. On a rideout someone gave me some and it was like riding in utter silence, like someone had muted all sound, very disconcerting as you say. However I kept at it and TBH it more like the sound level is reduced rather than eliminated, I can see hear stuff around me/my bike etc. I pretty much wear them all the time now, sometimes I'll go without for very short trips through town but feels too loud although that might just be my bike/helmet.

[black-k1]

julian64 said:

neelyp said:

You can't argue with Julian, don't you know he's a doctor so is bound to be right about these things.

What I do know is that if he were to come to my place of work and refuse to wear earplugs "because they affect what I sense going on round about me" he'd get sacked. That's in an environment quieter than being on a bike at 70mph.
To deny that constant loud noise isn't harmful to hearing is ridiculous, especially from a doctor.

Hmm if I don't mention I'm a doctor you bring it up, and if I do mention I'm a doctor I'm somehow browbeating you.

You need to make your own decisions, once understanding all the facts.

I've said that the research is undeniable but just for your benefit I will say it again. Persistent high volume noise will inevitably damage your hearing. Its a well documented process recognised in industry and proven. Short duration mild level noise has a lesser impact reduced by the ears ability to turn its amplification system down In response to loud noise which is probably temporary protection we all have to mid range noise exposure.

However I don't have a single patient I look after with the words 'Deafness caused by motorcycling' in their notes. I do however have a few motorcyclists even in my small patch killed each year on a motorcycle, and more permanently damaged to the point whereby they can no longer carry on their chosen career. The extent to which these might be helped by not wearing earplugs is almost impossible to prove in the statistical noise. If the statistics were so clear cut why aren't hearing centres up and down the country disproportionately filled with bikers?

So after weighing up both sides I would take a pragmatic approach of advising people that earplugs for comfort or to avoid hearing damage should not be their major concern on a bike, and whenever this subject is bought up on biker banter someone always comes out with the 'its a no brainer to wear ear plugs' which I think AS A BIKER is wrong.

You must make your own decisions.

While I understand and support your personal choice, your justification holds no water unless the investigations into those motorcycle deaths show that there was a possibility of avoiding the accident had ear plugs not been worn.

They’re your ears and you can use and abuse them however you wish but I can categorically state that I do suffer from hearing loss and Tinnitus as a direct result of not wearing hearing protection on a motorcycle and it really is something I would recommend is avoided.

[Pothole]

julian64 said:

You need to make your own decisions, once understanding all the facts.

I've said that the research is undeniable but just for your benefit I will say it again. Persistent high volume noise will inevitably damage your hearing. Its a well documented process recognised in industry and proven. Short duration mild level noise has a lesser impact reduced by the ears ability to turn its amplification system down In response to loud noise which is probably temporary protection we all have to mid range noise exposure.

We can agree these are statistically proven facts

However I don't have a single patient I look after with the words 'Deafness caused by motorcycling' in their notes. I do however have a few motorcyclists even in my small patch killed each year on a motorcycle, and more permanently damaged to the point whereby they can no longer carry on their chosen career. The extent to which these might be helped by not wearing earplugs is almost impossible to prove in the statistical noise. If the statistics were so clear cut why aren't hearing centres up and down the country disproportionately filled with bikers?

This appears to be solely anecdotal

Should decisions be made on factual, statistical evidence or anecdotal evidence?

My own experience is that I've got used to wearing earplugs and am no less aware of my surroundings than the rare occasions I go without.

[Michael_B]

I buy fairly expensive (read lightweight, comfortable and well sonically-insulated) helmets, but still prefer to wear earplugs in general. The only time I might not bother is if, after setting off again after a longer break, I will be stopping again very soon for fuel. I did this a couple of times in Corsica this summer, and the resulting interim noise seemed pretty loud to me, tolerable for five minutes but certainly not much longer.

As Julian says, it is a personal decision. I don't believe for one minute that many bikers die or are injured in accidents by having their sense of awareness so much affected by wearing earplugs. I'd imagine that awareness of their actual riding abilities (in most single-biker accidents) and/or observational skills (in most collisions with other road-users) play a much greater role. I am not a statistician, paramedic, doctor or whatever, just a humble accountant who commuted by motorbike for years on end into London, and then in the past 15 years ridden tens of thousand of kilometres around Europe from my base here in Switzerland, so I can speak only from my personal riding experiences and those of others around me.

[EagleMoto4-2]

I wear plugs. At first it feels a bit strange, but you get used to the silence and feeling of something filling the outer part of your ear canal. It appears the more you use them the more you seem to be able to hear certain sounds with them in place. Its as if your brain re-calibrates your hearing to pick up the important frequencies, other than the droning wind noise.
Of course they are a pain at the petrol station when you cant hear the attendant at the till very well!

[Prof Prolapse]

Let's be clear. You're arguing against both the concensus, and the reasoned and well evidenced hypothesis. Burden of proof now rests with you. If you don't provide it, we don't need evidence to dismiss your claims.

julian64 said:

I've said that the research is undeniable but just for your benefit I will say it again. Persistent high volume noise will inevitably damage your hearing. Its a well documented process recognised in industry and proven. Short duration mild level noise has a lesser impact reduced by the ears ability to turn its amplification system down In response to loud noise which is probably temporary protection we all have to mid range noise exposure.

Motorcycling anywhere but bumbling to the shops is persistent high volume. So this point is moot.

julian64 said:

However I don't have a single patient I look after with the words 'Deafness caused by motorcycling' in their notes.

Of course they don't, but they don't say "Lung cancer caused by smoking" either.

The absence of someone being able to write it down definitively doesn't make it untrue, or mean we can abandon reason and the laws of probability.

julian64 said:

I do however have a few motorcyclists even in my small patch killed each year on a motorcycle, and more permanently damaged to the point whereby they can no longer carry on their chosen career. The extent to which these might be helped by not wearing earplugs is almost impossible to prove in the statistical noise.

You are using the absence of evidence as evidence. You don't even provide a rationale for how these people might be "navigating by sound".

julian64 said:

If the statistics were so clear cut why aren't hearing centres up and down the country disproportionately filled with bikers?

Probably because they're sensible and wearing earplugs?

Or to highlight more lack of evidence, how do you know they're not?

julian64 said:

So after weighing up both sides I would take a pragmatic approach of advising people that earplugs for comfort or to avoid hearing damage should not be their major concern on a bike, and whenever this subject is bought up on biker banter someone always comes out with the 'its a no brainer to wear ear plugs' which I think AS A BIKER is wrong.

Your well being should always be your main concern on a bike, and there's no reason whatsoever you can't protect your hearing as well as the rest of you. That's why you're getting stick here, you're not only failing to back up your reasons, you're not even expressing what they are.

The two sides are currently, "vague contrarian ramblings promoting self-harm" vs. reality.

julian64 said:

You must make your own decisions.

Yes. But don't be so open minded your brain falls out.

[julian64]

Pothole said:

Should decisions be made on factual, statistical evidence or anecdotal evidence?

My own experience is that I've got used to wearing earplugs and am no less aware of my surroundings than the rare occasions I go without.

Your points are understandable. Medicine is evidence based in this country but you are suggesting I ignore the evidence of twenty years treating 14500 patients. I think you'll find that is a bigger study than the ones you're quoting. The uncomfortable truth is that doctors in the uk use a range of systems for making decisions about patients, and although we are influenced by pure research we have a healthy scepticism and do use anecdotal evidence.

For instance twenty years ago I could have been taken to court for having someone with a particular type of heart condition on a particular type of tablet called beta blockers. Nowadays I could be taken to court for not having the exact same person on those tablets. The statistical evidence base for their use did a fairly 180 degree turn in that time. The statistics weren't wrong, but you have too much faith in how statistics are interpreted, and its was the interpretation of risk in those early reports which were wrong. In reality patients who were getting worse had their medication adapted rather than blindly following the statistics, a more anecdotal approach.

There are thousands of examples of this in medicine, and this is not the thread to debate it all. Things just aren't as simple as you suggest and we don't worship at the altar of statistics it is merely a good tool amongst a range of tools.

If you want to use ear plugs while riding then fine. I like the courage of your convictions. If you end up contemplating this after an RTA then your certainty will serve you well. If I end up contemplating this after an accident I would be much less sure and for that reason wouldn't wear them.

[moanthebairns]

Prof Prolapse said:

You get disorientated wearing ear plugs, what are you a bat?

[DuraAce]

I use plugs everytime I go anywhere other than popping to the local shop and not exceeding 30mph.

I dont buy into the theory that not using them is safer. I find the protection of plugs leads me to be less fatigued and therefore concentrating more as I'm not getting annoyed by windblast. Its bike dependant to a point - something like a R1200RT with a barn size fairing will offer a bit more protection than my sportsbikes. I'd still use them though.

I do all my observation and self preservation with my eyes though. If I happend to be totally deaf I would still happily ride my motorbike.
If I was blind - perhaps not so much.

[moanthebairns]

julian64 said:

If you want to use ear plugs while riding then fine. I like the courage of your convictions. If you end up contemplating this after an RTA then your certainty will serve you well. If I end up contemplating this after an accident I would be much less sure and for that reason wouldn't wear them.

Could you give me a situation where you might hear something that would avoid a RTA?

Because I'm struggling. I can hear a horn with headphones and earplugs.

I can hear an ambulance going me-maw-me-maw, however it does help it has huge flashing blue lights and has ambulance plastered all over it.

I cant think of anything else, its not like someone is going to sit you up mid corner on the road.

[julian64]

moanthebairns said:

Could you give me a situation where you might hear something that would avoid a RTA?

Because I'm struggling. I can hear a horn with headphones and earplugs.

I can hear an ambulance going me-maw-me-maw, however it does help it has huge flashing blue lights and has ambulance plastered all over it.

I cant think of anything else, its not like someone is going to sit you up mid corner on the road.

You really can't think why a deaf person would be disadvantaged on a bike? Are you really trying?

Sound of something getting caught up in your wheel which is about to get entangled in your chain.
Screeching of tyres
Sound change of an engine note in a vehicle around you.
The sound of that siren which is rapidly approaching you as the fuzz zero in on your location
.
.
The buzz of the bumble bee stuck in your helmet which is about to sting you
.
.
The call of the lesser spotted seagull which is currently humping your white alpinestars and with its last thrust is going to unexpectedly change gear for you.


You really need to stop struggling and let your imagination fly.

[sjtscott]

For daily commuting in London I don't use earplugs. For any other riding I do, which generally means outside of central London from my point of view i.e. on longer trips I always use earplugs.
There is very limited opportunity in London to maintain any speed at or above the speed limit for any length of time in the central 2 zones I ride in.
Additionally at slower speeds where wind/white noise isn't dominate you can use your hearing to assist your riding too. However I'll point out that an experienced observant motorcyclist looks and doesn't need their hearing to ride safely - what I'm saying is having the ability to add hearing something to aid your riding at slower speeds round town is an additional enhancement in my view.
But I'm perfectly able to ride round towns/cities with earplugs in and have done many many times, you can still hear certain things perfectly well.

[Pothole]

julian64 said:

You really can't think why a deaf person would be disadvantaged on a bike? Are you really trying?

Sound of something getting caught up in your wheel which is about to get entangled in your chain.
Screeching of tyres
Sound change of an engine note in a vehicle around you.
The sound of that siren which is rapidly approaching you as the fuzz zero in on your location
.
.
The buzz of the bumble bee stuck in your helmet which is about to sting you
.
.
The call of the lesser spotted seagull which is currently humping your white alpinestars and with its last thrust is going to unexpectedly change gear for you.


You really need to stop struggling and let your imagination fly.

I can still hear those...

[julian64]

Pothole said:

julian64 said:

You really can't think why a deaf person would be disadvantaged on a bike? Are you really trying?

Sound of something getting caught up in your wheel which is about to get entangled in your chain.
Screeching of tyres
Sound change of an engine note in a vehicle around you.
The sound of that siren which is rapidly approaching you as the fuzz zero in on your location
.
.
The buzz of the bumble bee stuck in your helmet which is about to sting you
.
.
The call of the lesser spotted seagull which is currently humping your white alpinestars and with its last thrust is going to unexpectedly change gear for you.


You really need to stop struggling and let your imagination fly.

I can still hear those...

Well I can't, are you spotting the irony yet .

I make it a solemn promise that when the next one of these threads come up I will not post and will leave the advice up to you statisticians, for the same reason I don't post in 'health matters' its not good for my blood pressure