Isle of Man Police release shocking video
Discussion
Everybody likes to think they're a hero, who'll spring into action when needed. The truth sadly is much more likely that we'll freeze. If you have seen a minor incident and dealt with it, that doesn't say how you'll deal with a much more major one like this.
The guy on the right lying there on fire was without doubt dead, as nobody lies still when on fire. However, what we also don't know if how mangled his body was. I've seen messed up stuff on TV and carried on eating my tea, but in the flesh is a different story.
The guy on the right lying there on fire was without doubt dead, as nobody lies still when on fire. However, what we also don't know if how mangled his body was. I've seen messed up stuff on TV and carried on eating my tea, but in the flesh is a different story.
I've seen this sort of thing by Germans in the Isle of Man before, sorry if it sounds like I'm having a pop at a nation in general but some Germans just go out of their way to be reckless.
I have seen so many doing something a little extreme and panic by veering to their right - not quite sure if this was the case here but the German rider made no effort to go left did he?
We always felt they were so regulated in their own country they just go mad at the TT - I don't know why.
The fact they (the overtaking bikes) are going the 'wrong way' over the mountain at a pace really says it all about their attitude. Whilst it's not illegal to go the 'wrong way' it's something you do with utmost care and only if avoidable(from the bungalow I'd gone through Thot y Will, Sulby and to Ramsey). Look at the camera bike, appreciate it's an older bike possibly a CB400-750 from the mudguard, but while he is keeping pace with the riders in front, he is fairly well tucked over.
Very good comment about the keep left signs being shown going around the course in the racing direction only (Links Farhen?? from memory). Not a bad idea to have them both sided.
I have seen so many doing something a little extreme and panic by veering to their right - not quite sure if this was the case here but the German rider made no effort to go left did he?
We always felt they were so regulated in their own country they just go mad at the TT - I don't know why.
The fact they (the overtaking bikes) are going the 'wrong way' over the mountain at a pace really says it all about their attitude. Whilst it's not illegal to go the 'wrong way' it's something you do with utmost care and only if avoidable(from the bungalow I'd gone through Thot y Will, Sulby and to Ramsey). Look at the camera bike, appreciate it's an older bike possibly a CB400-750 from the mudguard, but while he is keeping pace with the riders in front, he is fairly well tucked over.
Very good comment about the keep left signs being shown going around the course in the racing direction only (Links Farhen?? from memory). Not a bad idea to have them both sided.
Bailey93 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly this, they had no idea whether there would be a secondary explosion, self preservation takes over I guess, you cant help anyone if you get killed yourself....
I've some experience of fires, mostly due to a love of bonfires as a kid (and adult for that matter!): a fire of the size and ferocity of that in the video would be excruciatingly painful at even 10 feet proximity.
No one would be capable of running into it to conduct a rescue, no matter how much of a hero they think they are, it's not like in the movies. Fire hurts. A lot.
Toxic,
Yes i have been in that situation. Back in 1965 when there was joint mod/rocker bike rides out to Epping Forest. One chap on a stripped Lambretta lost control and slid with his passenger under a car, no helmets back then!!!went under the offside between the wheels. Smell of petrol everywhere so about 6 of us dropped bikes, I was in my car, and lifted the bloody thing off of them and pulled them clear, women in the car screaming like stuck pigs. then got the two women in the car,and set up a cordon. Nobody knew exactly what to do but at all fell into place. Luckily no fire but the lambys frame had punctured the cars tank, hnce the strong smell.
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
Yes i have been in that situation. Back in 1965 when there was joint mod/rocker bike rides out to Epping Forest. One chap on a stripped Lambretta lost control and slid with his passenger under a car, no helmets back then!!!went under the offside between the wheels. Smell of petrol everywhere so about 6 of us dropped bikes, I was in my car, and lifted the bloody thing off of them and pulled them clear, women in the car screaming like stuck pigs. then got the two women in the car,and set up a cordon. Nobody knew exactly what to do but at all fell into place. Luckily no fire but the lambys frame had punctured the cars tank, hnce the strong smell.
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
silverfoxcc said:
Toxic,
Yes i have been in that situation. Back in 1965 when there was joint mod/rocker bike rides out to Epping Forest. One chap on a stripped Lambretta lost control and slid with his passenger under a car, no helmets back then!!!went under the offside between the wheels. Smell of petrol everywhere so about 6 of us dropped bikes, I was in my car, and lifted the bloody thing off of them and pulled them clear, women in the car screaming like stuck pigs. then got the two women in the car,and set up a cordon. Nobody knew exactly what to do but at all fell into place. Luckily no fire but the lambys frame had punctured the cars tank, hnce the strong smell.
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
I'm not a medical expert, but I do know that a person who is unconscious will not be unconscious very long if on fire. Fire hurts like hell and will bring people round quicker than anything you can think of, even some involuntary movements would be seen. They would not simply lie there whilst on fire. Yes i have been in that situation. Back in 1965 when there was joint mod/rocker bike rides out to Epping Forest. One chap on a stripped Lambretta lost control and slid with his passenger under a car, no helmets back then!!!went under the offside between the wheels. Smell of petrol everywhere so about 6 of us dropped bikes, I was in my car, and lifted the bloody thing off of them and pulled them clear, women in the car screaming like stuck pigs. then got the two women in the car,and set up a cordon. Nobody knew exactly what to do but at all fell into place. Luckily no fire but the lambys frame had punctured the cars tank, hnce the strong smell.
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
snorky782 said:
I'm not a medical expert, but I do know that a person who is unconscious will not be unconscious very long if on fire. Fire hurts like hell and will bring people round quicker than anything you can think of, even some involuntary movements would be seen. They would not simply lie there whilst on fire.
I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
What makes you believe an unconscious person must come around due to the pain of being on fire?I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
Doesn't it rather depend on what has made them unconscious and how serious that injury is in the first place?
I'd be surprised if someone with a very serious or catastrophic head injury couldn't remain unconscious whilst being burned alive. Mind you, I'm no doctor.
I fear that TV and the Movies have severely deluded people in thinking the human body is not as fragile as it is.
Whatever though, can we leave this discussion here now? Most of the riders would not have been able to see the man on fire due to angle, even if they could there would not likely to be able to, and as it turns out was no chance of helping him out. We also don't know what happened straight after this vid ends.
But if issues have happened at this point before, then the council should be sorting out this stretch of road.
Whatever though, can we leave this discussion here now? Most of the riders would not have been able to see the man on fire due to angle, even if they could there would not likely to be able to, and as it turns out was no chance of helping him out. We also don't know what happened straight after this vid ends.
But if issues have happened at this point before, then the council should be sorting out this stretch of road.
janesmith1950 said:
snorky782 said:
I'm not a medical expert, but I do know that a person who is unconscious will not be unconscious very long if on fire. Fire hurts like hell and will bring people round quicker than anything you can think of, even some involuntary movements would be seen. They would not simply lie there whilst on fire.
I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
What makes you believe an unconscious person must come around due to the pain of being on fire?I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
Doesn't it rather depend on what has made them unconscious and how serious that injury is in the first place?
I'd be surprised if someone with a very serious or catastrophic head injury couldn't remain unconscious whilst being burned alive. Mind you, I'm no doctor.
Doesn't the pneumonic go "AVPU"
Alert
Voice-responsive.
Pain-responsive.
Unconscious.
That suggests someone can be unconscious yet not react to painful stimuli.
Crossflow Kid said:
janesmith1950 said:
snorky782 said:
I'm not a medical expert, but I do know that a person who is unconscious will not be unconscious very long if on fire. Fire hurts like hell and will bring people round quicker than anything you can think of, even some involuntary movements would be seen. They would not simply lie there whilst on fire.
I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
What makes you believe an unconscious person must come around due to the pain of being on fire?I don't think you're a "Walt" (your words, not mine), but I think you are overestimating what is most likely to happen.
Doesn't it rather depend on what has made them unconscious and how serious that injury is in the first place?
I'd be surprised if someone with a very serious or catastrophic head injury couldn't remain unconscious whilst being burned alive. Mind you, I'm no doctor.
Doesn't the pneumonic go "AVPU"
Alert
Voice-responsive.
Pain-responsive.
Unconscious.
That suggests someone can be unconscious yet not react to painful stimuli.
You can discuss it all you like, but I defy anyone to really believe that someone who is unconscious is also so far gone as to not react to a secondary pain, that is probably the worst pain possible. The mnemonic is around a position after the incident has happened, with no further stimuli being applied.
silverfoxcc said:
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
My bold. Radiant heat doesn't rise (nor does conductive heat for that matter), and from a fire of that intensity, there would have been a lot of it. You wouldn't be able to get close. Super Slo Mo said:
silverfoxcc said:
now i drive a bus for the disabled and practice fire evacuation each year, the hard thing to do is to leave a wheelchair on board should it happen ,but its numbers that count, oh and to the Medical expert who could tell from the vid that the guy was dead.It is worth noting unconcious people dont move either on fire or not, plus it is highly possible that there would be no secondary explosion, and as heat rises, i would have bellied to his feet and pulled him back, first rule is tend to the ones not moving/moaning,as the ones that are are alive and we need to preserve life... Jeez i am beginnig to sound like a Walt here!!!!
My bold. Radiant heat doesn't rise (nor does conductive heat for that matter), and from a fire of that intensity, there would have been a lot of it. You wouldn't be able to get close. I dont subscribe to the him being dead already thoughts. The only way to know would be to look at the autopsy report and see if his lungs showed signs of inhaling smoke. Even if he was brain dead his peripheral reflexes would still work and as such muscle spasms, if visible, would have given the impression he was still alive.
Violent impact it may have been, but F1 drivers have still been revived after more severe crashes immediately after, but due to brain stem injury later perished in hospital.
I have come across the aftermath of 2 motorcycle crashes during my time on the roads, the later one a group of Harley's I was following and saw as it happened. Training helps you to deal with these situations (trained first aider at work, and ex member of St John's Ambulance). Your first instinct is to make sure you don't end up in an accident yourself, make the accident area safe and then treat the injured. You may think you would freeze in a similar situation, but training will make you go into autopilot. They really should make all learners go through a first aid course, geared towards RTA's, as part of their test.
silverfoxcc said:
308mate said:
Prof Prolapse said:
silverfoxcc said:
Well the preservation of life part of me says, at least put the fire out on him and get him a bit further away from the danger. No fecker even bothered to have a look at he poor b
d and just watched the BBQ. Ok he was dead, BUT he may not have been,and might havce been saved from fatal burns, we have all seen those vids on here when you think thata a funeral job, and the bloke jumps up and is moving. just saying shame on everyone who did fk all, esp to the cretin who drove through it afterwards. Prize one IMHO
Just remember not everyone has that much presence of mind after witnessing that situation mate. You also don't know what they did after the end of the footage. d and just watched the BBQ. Ok he was dead, BUT he may not have been,and might havce been saved from fatal burns, we have all seen those vids on here when you think thata a funeral job, and the bloke jumps up and is moving. just saying shame on everyone who did fk all, esp to the cretin who drove through it afterwards. Prize one IMHOIt's moot anyway. They're dead and amateur intervention is somewhat unlikely to have altered that fact. I think as mentioned above the only real useful response to this sort of thing is empathy for those left behind, and a reminder to be vigilant.
Sadly I find myself developing quite a thick skin to it these days. I suspect I'm not alone with that though.
But prof has a point where such clarity to swing into action is not guaranteed in the here & now. I personally don't think the video is long enough to give a good idea of who got involved and how.
As i said preservation of life for me would have kicked in, and got that guy clear and the flames out. Then check for vital signs, but then again thats me, it isnt as if it were a burning building you were going into.
Wedg1e said:
Hackney said:
So the bike with the panniers that passed the camera bike just after the accident, slowed down weaved through the flames and debris....what the fk????
What would you have him do, stop and add to the chaos? Pretty soon there'd be emergency services vehicles hurtling that way and finding a load of bikes parked up and riders stood round with their thumbs up their arses wouldn't help anyone. Besides, not everyone's a hero in a crisis and they're better off out of the way.k????It did look like he was pulling in right at the end of the clip.
It's a well documented fact that at the majority of motorcycle accidents the first person on scene is more often than not another biker, simply because they often ride together or in groups. With that in mind 5 years ago Kent Fire & Rescue piloted a free course for bikers called "Biker Down" it lasts 3 hours and is normally conducted at either a fire station or nowdays at their purpose built road safety centre. It concentrates on 3x 1 hour "ish" modules covering accident scene management, biker specific first aid and the science of being seen. This course has been such a success and received such good feedback that it's been rolling out nationwide over the last few years and is now conducted to the same core framework all over the country. If you really feel that "it's not worth stopping to stand around with your thumb up your arse" might I question how you'd feel if you laid there choking on your own blood while bikes rode by, as they were sure the "emergency services were on their way and would take care of it" Just Google "Biker Down Course" or look on Facebook for "Biker Down" give up three hours of your time and learn to become useful when it all goes wrong.
Oh and a point of clarity the safest place at an accident scene is the other side of it, the best thing is to pass and then walk back, the most important thing is not to add to the casualty count.
Super Slo Mo said:
Bailey93 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly this, they had no idea whether there would be a secondary explosion, self preservation takes over I guess, you cant help anyone if you get killed yourself....
I've some experience of fires, mostly due to a love of bonfires as a kid (and adult for that matter!): a fire of the size and ferocity of that in the video would be excruciatingly painful at even 10 feet proximity.
No one would be capable of running into it to conduct a rescue, no matter how much of a hero they think they are, it's not like in the movies. Fire hurts. A lot.
k about with. The heat coming off that would have been intense. EagleMoto4-2 said:
You probably couldnt get close if you were in normal clothes, but what if as most people riding bikes would have on, a full set of leathers and a helmet. That would shield you for a brief time from the heat, perhaps enough to drag him away and roll to put out the flames. Same goes for the rider, his body would have had some brief protection, assuming he was wearing leathers.
That thought had occurred to me, and you may well be right. I would be curious to see how many seconds one could last before being 'beaten back', so to speak.Any exposed areas of skin, such as neck or face, would be excruciatingly painful though, and I suspect the visor of the helmet would be melting before you'd got close enough to be useful.
I'm not knocking people for thinking they'd try, after all, we'd all hope to try to do something, I just think that, in practice, getting to the body in the middle of all that fire would be next to impossible.
mel said:
... the safest place at an accident scene is the other side of it, the best thing is to pass and then walk back, the most important thing is not to add to the casualty count.
So the guy did the right thing by riding past then, is what I think you're saying.I'm not saying that I personally wouldn't be in there to try and assist, I was trying to justify why the guy who is being so roundly vilified on here did what he did, i.e. ride past (and apparently stop up the road, as I also said). Maybe he's just not one of life's heros, and if it was me on the floor I'd rather he phucked off out of the way instead of heaving his Weetabix over me.
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