Motocross bikes. Give me some info
Discussion
I have been looking into this for a while now as there's quite a few tracks locally and £25 for the day is much cheaper than a track day plus it gives me something to do over the winter or when the weather is bad.
The real question is, how are 250's? I remember riding a YZ250 years ago at Golding Barn and remember it felt quite gutless but that was probably also due to my inexperience and lack of riding at the time and being a couple stone heavier.
I think I'm looking at a 4 stroke as I've never owned a 2 stroke and not sure how much maintenance and care is required with them (I'm okay with spannering but not the best) and also looking at Suzuki as they seem to be a bit cheaper and you get more bike for the money. I'm open to anything and I'm sure KTM is the cream of the crop (looking at the Sx-f's) and I'm not scared of going down that route as I own an SMCR which has been 100% reliable (knock on wood!) but have heard Honda CRF's can have problems? I just don't want to buy a 250 and feel let down. Also how heavy is the maintenance? I see lots of adverts on ebay of people who change oil and air filter every ride, overkill or not?
Thanks
The real question is, how are 250's? I remember riding a YZ250 years ago at Golding Barn and remember it felt quite gutless but that was probably also due to my inexperience and lack of riding at the time and being a couple stone heavier.
I think I'm looking at a 4 stroke as I've never owned a 2 stroke and not sure how much maintenance and care is required with them (I'm okay with spannering but not the best) and also looking at Suzuki as they seem to be a bit cheaper and you get more bike for the money. I'm open to anything and I'm sure KTM is the cream of the crop (looking at the Sx-f's) and I'm not scared of going down that route as I own an SMCR which has been 100% reliable (knock on wood!) but have heard Honda CRF's can have problems? I just don't want to buy a 250 and feel let down. Also how heavy is the maintenance? I see lots of adverts on ebay of people who change oil and air filter every ride, overkill or not?
Thanks
Get yourself a classic sixties or seventies four stroke, CCM. Matchless or BSA Victor, the real deal...proper man's bikes.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs
250 2 stroke should rip your arms off! 250 4 stroke is a good starting point, a 125 2 stroke is more frenetic and harder work. 450 4 strokes are insane, like over 60hp now.
worth looking at some of the endure bikes if you are starting. First, a road legal one is easy to insure, and you can do greenlaning on it too. Many MX tracks are closed in the winter, but endure clubs still run practice and race days. Gives you some options with a road legal bike.
a 300 stroke enduro is an awesome bike, impossible to stall just about, with a big hit up top if you want it. The 350 4 strokes are ace too, light and nimble, great power. 45 enduro 4 strokes are great machines, bit heavier, great engine braking, tractable, mad top end, and a bit less stressed if you do any road work or transits.
Look at a 250 4 stroke enduro I would say, a KTM or Husky is very capable. Or a 300 beta trainer, depending on budget. Nice bike to learn on . But you wont go far wrong with a Honda CRF 250 or 450 if you want to scare yourself occasionally, the CRF X models are road legal and on cheap 0% finance too
Enduros tend to be leccy start too which on a big 4 stroke is a bonus as hotstarts can be hard work.
Spannering wise, a 2t is bit more simple, 4 strokes need very regular oil changes, like every 10 hours or so, they hold only about a litre to 1.5 ltr of oil so gets dirty quick. Pistons can be every 50 hours or so, but most go to 100 hours plus. Valve check every 25 hours or so should do, run good air filters and change regularly.
worth looking at some of the endure bikes if you are starting. First, a road legal one is easy to insure, and you can do greenlaning on it too. Many MX tracks are closed in the winter, but endure clubs still run practice and race days. Gives you some options with a road legal bike.
a 300 stroke enduro is an awesome bike, impossible to stall just about, with a big hit up top if you want it. The 350 4 strokes are ace too, light and nimble, great power. 45 enduro 4 strokes are great machines, bit heavier, great engine braking, tractable, mad top end, and a bit less stressed if you do any road work or transits.
Look at a 250 4 stroke enduro I would say, a KTM or Husky is very capable. Or a 300 beta trainer, depending on budget. Nice bike to learn on . But you wont go far wrong with a Honda CRF 250 or 450 if you want to scare yourself occasionally, the CRF X models are road legal and on cheap 0% finance too
Enduros tend to be leccy start too which on a big 4 stroke is a bonus as hotstarts can be hard work.
Spannering wise, a 2t is bit more simple, 4 strokes need very regular oil changes, like every 10 hours or so, they hold only about a litre to 1.5 ltr of oil so gets dirty quick. Pistons can be every 50 hours or so, but most go to 100 hours plus. Valve check every 25 hours or so should do, run good air filters and change regularly.
Edited by poo at Paul's on Sunday 4th September 14:46
Won't need to be road legal as I only plan on taking it to tracks to have a blast if I'm perfectly honest. While it would be nice to take it out if it snows, it would be rare for that to happen so defeats the point.
Budget would be anywhere from 2-4k at the mo. If I get a 250 as an introduction I'd like to go cheap and as mentioned, Suzuki seems to offer more bang for buck with lots of 250's on ebay from 2-3 grand. Also part of me says just go the full hog and get a 450 so I don't have to bother with selling it to upgrade from a 250. I'm pretty sure 100kg and 60bhp is insane and it's probably better to learn and get fast on a 250 before stepping up.
Budget would be anywhere from 2-4k at the mo. If I get a 250 as an introduction I'd like to go cheap and as mentioned, Suzuki seems to offer more bang for buck with lots of 250's on ebay from 2-3 grand. Also part of me says just go the full hog and get a 450 so I don't have to bother with selling it to upgrade from a 250. I'm pretty sure 100kg and 60bhp is insane and it's probably better to learn and get fast on a 250 before stepping up.
For budget you'd get a decent bike, personally, if you want to keep off the spanners, a Honda will be easier than a Suzook. The KTMs and Huskys worth looking at too. Don't forget just how useful electric start is.
The reason I say about road legal or registered stuff is just because an awful lot of MX tracks are closed in winter, so you will have other options on enduro bike.
I got a 450 Honda 3 yrs ago to greenlane, I did one massive and great day out on it going to Stonehenge, about 12 hours total 90% off road, but since then I have just been racing it. There's loads of options, as you say, dirt cheap. MX tracks are OK, but the big 10 mile enduro loops can be great as not too "samey".
Budget for proper kit too, best boots and lid you can afford, good chest protector etc. You WILL fall off!!
The reason I say about road legal or registered stuff is just because an awful lot of MX tracks are closed in winter, so you will have other options on enduro bike.
I got a 450 Honda 3 yrs ago to greenlane, I did one massive and great day out on it going to Stonehenge, about 12 hours total 90% off road, but since then I have just been racing it. There's loads of options, as you say, dirt cheap. MX tracks are OK, but the big 10 mile enduro loops can be great as not too "samey".
Budget for proper kit too, best boots and lid you can afford, good chest protector etc. You WILL fall off!!
Wacky Racer said:
Get yourself a classic sixties or seventies four stroke, CCM. Matchless or BSA Victor, the real deal...proper man's bikes.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs
Absolutely spot on, although the OP's budget does not cover any of your mentioned bikes, unfortunately the speculators have got at classic bikes along with the cost of maintaining a british competition bike; the advertised prices like my 1954 MABSA are in excess of £5,000.00 - if this is achieved or not is another matter.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuZk5q0qCs
PorkInsider said:
If, as an inexperienced rider, you found a 2-stroke 250 to be gutless, I would suggest you might want something like a Maico 700.
It was a 4 stroke job (may have got the model number incorrect). Haha, I think a CR500 from what I've heard is more than enough. Still a life goal to ride a sumo versioned one. PorkInsider said:
If, as an inexperienced rider, you found a 2-stroke 250 to be gutless, I would suggest you might want something like a Maico 700.
you would have to be a fair rider to keep a strong running 125 2T WOT on a MX track yes sounds like a CR500 would be a good bike for him
2 strokes are much cheaper and easier to maintain than a 4T. A full top end refresh is a doddle and as long as you use top quality oil the bottom end should be fine. Reeds need changing occasionally but other than that not much.
The hit of a healthy 2T knocks any 4t into the weeds and like for like a 4t won't see which way the smoker went. Despite fears of low end bogging a well set smoker will pull from nowhere to the top with no drama. Much lighter bikes as well.
But be careful about what you want to do. If it's exclusively mx then get a proper mx bike. They're very different from the enduro equivalent. Especially suspension. Mx suspension is crap for enduro and vice versa.
Gearbox ratios are totally different as well as overall geometry usually.
Get the right tool for the job......
I'd recommend a decent yamaha yz 250 or KTM 250sx.
Just be ready for the complete absence of any engine braking!!!
2ND to 4the is all you'll ever need!
Ring ting ting.... Rev it..smell it...love it...
The hit of a healthy 2T knocks any 4t into the weeds and like for like a 4t won't see which way the smoker went. Despite fears of low end bogging a well set smoker will pull from nowhere to the top with no drama. Much lighter bikes as well.
But be careful about what you want to do. If it's exclusively mx then get a proper mx bike. They're very different from the enduro equivalent. Especially suspension. Mx suspension is crap for enduro and vice versa.
Gearbox ratios are totally different as well as overall geometry usually.
Get the right tool for the job......
I'd recommend a decent yamaha yz 250 or KTM 250sx.
Just be ready for the complete absence of any engine braking!!!
2ND to 4the is all you'll ever need!
Ring ting ting.... Rev it..smell it...love it...
Steve Bass said:
2ND to 4the is all you'll ever need!
Some years back I had a KTM 500 2-stroke. When I first got it I was surprised that it only had 4 gears but it didn't need any more and, as above, 1st wasn't really needed either. With low weight, 60hp+ and a 50-something tooth rear sprocket it would lift the front off the throttle in any gear at almost any speed, was a bastid to start though...
I mx'd from 1993 to 1998 and 2009 to 2014, my boy still does it every week. I know blue groove golding barn well too!
Its alot cheaper than road for sure but its not IF you crash its WHEN. I stopped racing due to serious injury which has given me permanent injury...That being said I did a Spain Enduro end of last year for the first time since the crash and rode Rushmere about a month back
If you want to have a dabble a 250f (4 stroke) is perfect. Newer the better as EFI etc made them real smooth, efficient and easy to start. Look at a 250f as a 600 in the track world
As said earlier dont go 450 - seriously they are savage when you start getting tired and arm pump etc. I raced them for years but if I took a month off it took weeks to get the fitness to run 18+1 lap moto's on them. They are perfect if you want an easy plod, trail riding etc but it wouldnt be my first choice
Smokers are a different bag, they are cheap to rebuild but do tend to be more expensive to run week in week out. They use twice the fuel and need pre mix. Thumpers arn't what they were 10 years ago, if maintained they will go for a very long time. I would often do 70-80 hours on my 450 only doing a top end 50 hours in. The issue being when they do go if maintained badly the costs can be alot (£600-800 compared to £200-300 2 stroke)
I wouldnt bother with a 125 unless you are 17 or weigh sub 11 stone. I rode a 2005 KX125 having not raced one since the mid 1990s and was going to 1st gear on the ruts to try pull my 14st weight round - it sounded funny but just annoyed me. 250 2 stroke will make 46-50bhp and is a good compromise. The KTMs have a really smooth power, the older Jap ones (I had 2 suzuki RM250s) have a more harder hitting kick I found although actually make less power on a dyno
Either ways you'll be fit by next season if you intend to ride mx over winter!! Good luck with it
Its alot cheaper than road for sure but its not IF you crash its WHEN. I stopped racing due to serious injury which has given me permanent injury...That being said I did a Spain Enduro end of last year for the first time since the crash and rode Rushmere about a month back
If you want to have a dabble a 250f (4 stroke) is perfect. Newer the better as EFI etc made them real smooth, efficient and easy to start. Look at a 250f as a 600 in the track world
As said earlier dont go 450 - seriously they are savage when you start getting tired and arm pump etc. I raced them for years but if I took a month off it took weeks to get the fitness to run 18+1 lap moto's on them. They are perfect if you want an easy plod, trail riding etc but it wouldnt be my first choice
Smokers are a different bag, they are cheap to rebuild but do tend to be more expensive to run week in week out. They use twice the fuel and need pre mix. Thumpers arn't what they were 10 years ago, if maintained they will go for a very long time. I would often do 70-80 hours on my 450 only doing a top end 50 hours in. The issue being when they do go if maintained badly the costs can be alot (£600-800 compared to £200-300 2 stroke)
I wouldnt bother with a 125 unless you are 17 or weigh sub 11 stone. I rode a 2005 KX125 having not raced one since the mid 1990s and was going to 1st gear on the ruts to try pull my 14st weight round - it sounded funny but just annoyed me. 250 2 stroke will make 46-50bhp and is a good compromise. The KTMs have a really smooth power, the older Jap ones (I had 2 suzuki RM250s) have a more harder hitting kick I found although actually make less power on a dyno
Either ways you'll be fit by next season if you intend to ride mx over winter!! Good luck with it
On a big boy MX track on real bikes for the first time on Friday just gone and my 2p worth is this.
250 four strokes (KTM sxf 2013) are the easiest to ride, tractable, light and not that intimidating. Not slow but just not aggressive.
450 four stroke (KTM EXC 2003) Older, heavier, nice electric start but good power and jumped pretty well considering.
250 2 stroke (KTM SX 2011). Dulled down with heavier flywheel weights and softer throttle map.
Huge power, significantly faster than the 450 when I dared to use it, very light, handled lovely and jumped beautifully.
If it were me right now with some experience but not much I'd plump for the 250 4 if it's MX only.
I'm looking at doing some enduros and a little MX work as I prefer the less leaving ground type riding and I will be looking at KTM 200-300 EXC's and similar just for the lack of weight mainly.
Picking up bikes is fine the first time, after a few hours riding and doing it for the umpteenth time they manage to get a lot heavier!
250 four strokes (KTM sxf 2013) are the easiest to ride, tractable, light and not that intimidating. Not slow but just not aggressive.
450 four stroke (KTM EXC 2003) Older, heavier, nice electric start but good power and jumped pretty well considering.
250 2 stroke (KTM SX 2011). Dulled down with heavier flywheel weights and softer throttle map.
Huge power, significantly faster than the 450 when I dared to use it, very light, handled lovely and jumped beautifully.
If it were me right now with some experience but not much I'd plump for the 250 4 if it's MX only.
I'm looking at doing some enduros and a little MX work as I prefer the less leaving ground type riding and I will be looking at KTM 200-300 EXC's and similar just for the lack of weight mainly.
Picking up bikes is fine the first time, after a few hours riding and doing it for the umpteenth time they manage to get a lot heavier!
Edited by MotorsportTom on Monday 5th September 18:30
By the sounds of it I want either a 2/4 stroke 250. I've got no problem paying for the servicing every 50 hours or so even if it's more on a 4 stroke if it means it's a bit more reliable. That said, I'm yet to scratch the two stroke itch before they get banned or something ridiculous. How much are four stroke 250's putting out, 40bhp for 100kg? I'm sure it's still fairly rapid.
Try not to get confused between enduro & MX bikes because there is a big difference between the two. If you plan to do MX tracks as opposed to green lanes then you're better off buying a proper MX bike. The suspension on an enduro bike is designed to smooth out rough roads so compared to an MX bike it's pretty soft. So even going over a relatively small jump the front and rear suspension can bottom out as can be seen below. The bike here is a KTM 300 EXC at Canada Heights.
obscene said:
By the sounds of it I want either a 2/4 stroke 250.
That narrows it down a bit. Don't overlook something like the Honda CR500AF. It is a American melding of a Honda 500cc 2T engine with a 250cc CRF250 frame. Very tractable and torquey donk, lithe 250 chassis - a match made in heaven. Honda don't make them due to them due to low demand but still make the parts, so industrious people have stepped in!
Andy XRV said:
Try not to get confused between enduro & MX bikes because there is a big difference between the two. If you plan to do MX tracks as opposed to green lanes then you're better off buying a proper MX bike. The suspension on an enduro bike is designed to smooth out rough roads so compared to an MX bike it's pretty soft. So even going over a relatively small jump the front and rear suspension can bottom out as can be seen below. The bike here is a KTM 300 EXC at Canada Heights.
Yes very true point this! Pics above are an enduro bike, soft suspension, big tank, smooth power and normally lowerWhere as mx bikes like my 450 below are much more aggressive and made for big air etc
Oh Canada Heights looks savage there! Can be a b
d of a track when wetWould it be unwise to just get a 450 and learn with it? I can see 50/60bp and 100kg being savage and having not MX'd it's going to be a complete difference compared to the track. There's a few reasonably priced KTM450 SX-F's locally which are tempting me, fuel injected and electric start is a big selling point... as well as the massive jumps in the post above
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