Was at the scene of a bike crash this evening
Discussion
upsidedownmark said:
Fair enough, I called it wrong then. Still I'd recommend being very suspicious of cars on the left with people in that aren't looking at you!
I've had more than one person make eye contact with me a good 10-20m down the road and pull out anyway forcing me to drop anchor, if only it was as simple as them seeing you.
Ive not pulled out in front of a bike, but have seen a couple occasions where a car in front at a junction has.
Thing is, in both the bike was travelling at speed, defo well above the speed limit, which can make it more difficult to judge pulling out, especially where it's a yield and your expectation is vehicles will be going a certain speed.
Bikes also accelerate really quickly up to those speeds, and to be honest it's more rare for me to see a bike doing the speed limit than it is to see a bike giving it some on the road.
In this case who's to say the bike wasnt going way above the speed limit, or accelerating very quickly which meant the driver wasnt given time to react. I know you're supposed to pre-empt every situation, drive defensively etc, but the vast majority of bikers dont help themselves when they do speeds way above the limit and use the road like their personal race track.
Of course, maybe the driver was a muppet and didnt check properly, but my experience is that bikers ride at high speeds and are generally impatient to pass/accelerate anything not doing that speed, which gives car drivers a lot less time to react.
Thing is, in both the bike was travelling at speed, defo well above the speed limit, which can make it more difficult to judge pulling out, especially where it's a yield and your expectation is vehicles will be going a certain speed.
Bikes also accelerate really quickly up to those speeds, and to be honest it's more rare for me to see a bike doing the speed limit than it is to see a bike giving it some on the road.
In this case who's to say the bike wasnt going way above the speed limit, or accelerating very quickly which meant the driver wasnt given time to react. I know you're supposed to pre-empt every situation, drive defensively etc, but the vast majority of bikers dont help themselves when they do speeds way above the limit and use the road like their personal race track.
Of course, maybe the driver was a muppet and didnt check properly, but my experience is that bikers ride at high speeds and are generally impatient to pass/accelerate anything not doing that speed, which gives car drivers a lot less time to react.
Thunderhead said:
Ive not pulled out in front of a bike, but have seen a couple occasions where a car in front at a junction has.
Thing is, in both the bike was travelling at speed, defo well above the speed limit, which can make it more difficult to judge pulling out, especially where it's a yield and your expectation is vehicles will be going a certain speed.
Bikes also accelerate really quickly up to those speeds, and to be honest it's more rare for me to see a bike doing the speed limit than it is to see a bike giving it some on the road.
In this case who's to say the bike wasnt going way above the speed limit, or accelerating very quickly which meant the driver wasnt given time to react. I know you're supposed to pre-empt every situation, drive defensively etc, but the vast majority of bikers dont help themselves when they do speeds way above the limit and use the road like their personal race track.
Of course, maybe the driver was a muppet and didnt check properly, but my experience is that bikers ride at high speeds and are generally impatient to pass/accelerate anything not doing that speed, which gives car drivers a lot less time to react.
in this case, i was following the motorcycle for several minutes before the crash. at no point did he speed, filter or do anything remotely interesting. he even kept to the far right of the of the lane near the centre line to reduce the risk of being killed by people pulling out of the driveways.Thing is, in both the bike was travelling at speed, defo well above the speed limit, which can make it more difficult to judge pulling out, especially where it's a yield and your expectation is vehicles will be going a certain speed.
Bikes also accelerate really quickly up to those speeds, and to be honest it's more rare for me to see a bike doing the speed limit than it is to see a bike giving it some on the road.
In this case who's to say the bike wasnt going way above the speed limit, or accelerating very quickly which meant the driver wasnt given time to react. I know you're supposed to pre-empt every situation, drive defensively etc, but the vast majority of bikers dont help themselves when they do speeds way above the limit and use the road like their personal race track.
Of course, maybe the driver was a muppet and didnt check properly, but my experience is that bikers ride at high speeds and are generally impatient to pass/accelerate anything not doing that speed, which gives car drivers a lot less time to react.
he couldn't swerve left, as he'd hit the side of the car, he couldent swerve right as he'd hit oncoming traffic head on, i presume he hit his brakes very hard ( notice from the pictures his bike has ABS )
he in my view did nothing wrong, the blame is 100% the car drivers.
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Came across the scene of an accident I hoped would never see involving a car and motorbike. Pulled up and got off the bike to lend a hand. Rider was conscious and lucid, he was surprisingly calm. It looked like the car had pulled out of a side road and the biker hit it. Near side front wing of the car was demolished and the bike was in a right state. Looked like a Honda CB400. The car driver didn't seem too upset either. There was a smell of petrol, but none of it was too close to the rider fortunately.
A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
Last year I had a similar impact when a driver ran their red lights. I rode straight into their A-pillar at 40mph, somersaulted 5-6 times through the air and landed 20m away. I was unconscious for 45 mins, and woke up to a person holding my tongue to keep me breathing, as my gear was being cut off me. My helmet was a Schuberth C3 Pro, and it was completely smashed through. It did, however, save my life. My Dainese textiles also limited my injuries from being worse than I sustained. I was strapped into a full body brace, but not before my helmet was fully removed. I could not move either of my legs or my arm at the time. Bottom line - you did the right thing by removing the helmet. Rather a paralysed and breathing person, than a dead one.A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
After several months, although I have no memory of the incident to this day, it was important to me to be able to say thank you to the people who attended to me on the scene and helped keep me breathing for the time I was unconscious, as I would have otherwise asphyxiated. Luckily, I was able to find out who they were, but not without some difficulty given the police and lawyers were involved. Being able to say thank you to the couple who directly attended to me meant a lot. Don't be a stranger to the biker - you played an invaluable role, and I am sure the biker would be keen to say thanks and at least know who helped/save them.
Helmet advice
Point 4
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2012/october/oc...
NABD - first paragraph
http://www.nabd.org.uk/openhouse/openhouse47/47p6....
I'm sorry guys, but taking the helmet off is a last resort, as is fiddling with it unless there's an absolute need to save the victims life. A conscious, lucid and calm (the words used at the start) victim do not suggest there was anything life threatening about the situation.
Point 4
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2012/october/oc...
NABD - first paragraph
http://www.nabd.org.uk/openhouse/openhouse47/47p6....
I'm sorry guys, but taking the helmet off is a last resort, as is fiddling with it unless there's an absolute need to save the victims life. A conscious, lucid and calm (the words used at the start) victim do not suggest there was anything life threatening about the situation.
SystemParanoia said:
I was at tye scene of one too not too long ago.
Car pulled out from its drive wwithout looking. Bike had no chance as traffic was comming the other way.
Lucky for the biker, the guy who hit him was a rretired a&e dr.
Unlucky for the biker, he had a broken femur
Look at the position of that beemer, relative to where he should be going, and look at the lock he has on. To me if looks like the silly old Car pulled out from its drive wwithout looking. Bike had no chance as traffic was comming the other way.
Lucky for the biker, the guy who hit him was a rretired a&e dr.
Unlucky for the biker, he had a broken femur
has driven out of his drive forgetting he lives on a 4 lane road, and has lined up to drive along the wrong way of "lane 2". If he is a retied a and e doctor, what the f
k is he doing in them two photos, stood around his car and on the pavment, whilst the rider is on the deck in the road? I am assuming it is the grey haired chap in the black top messing with the car door who was the driver? 
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Just to be clear. The helmet wasn't removed until the ambulance crew removed it. Not even the fast response paramedic removed it.
I know you didn't, but others have decided that it should be done as a matter of course, which I just can't u derstand. Even fiddling with the strap could cause some serious issues. Gavia said:
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Just to be clear. The helmet wasn't removed until the ambulance crew removed it. Not even the fast response paramedic removed it.
I know you didn't, but others have decided that it should be done as a matter of course, which I just can't u derstand. Even fiddling with the strap could cause some serious issues. s3fella said:
SystemParanoia said:
I was at tye scene of one too not too long ago.
Car pulled out from its drive wwithout looking. Bike had no chance as traffic was comming the other way.
Lucky for the biker, the guy who hit him was a rretired a&e dr.
Unlucky for the biker, he had a broken femur
Look at the position of that beemer, relative to where he should be going, and look at the lock he has on. To me if looks like the silly old Car pulled out from its drive wwithout looking. Bike had no chance as traffic was comming the other way.
Lucky for the biker, the guy who hit him was a rretired a&e dr.
Unlucky for the biker, he had a broken femur
has driven out of his drive forgetting he lives on a 4 lane road, and has lined up to drive along the wrong way of "lane 2". If he is a retied a and e doctor, what the f
k is he doing in them two photos, stood around his car and on the pavment, whilst the rider is on the deck in the road? I am assuming it is the grey haired chap in the black top messing with the car door who was the driver? 
He was the driver.The biker was conscious and took his own helmet off. The lady in the pug was just sitting back down to call the ambulance as the biker shouted/asked her to.
The Dr. didnt really do much for the first few mins, but then eventually came round to help and diagnosed his broken leg, and did all the medical talk to the ambulance crews. i ended up ushering traffic by as the police told me not to move my car as people are so impatient they would just run us all down without it there.
WinstonWolf said:
Gavia said:
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Just to be clear. The helmet wasn't removed until the ambulance crew removed it. Not even the fast response paramedic removed it.
I know you didn't, but others have decided that it should be done as a matter of course, which I just can't understand. Even fiddling with the strap could cause some serious issues. Two people fiddled with the clip. I really don't think this thread is a great advert for bikers, as we're demonstrating a basic lack of knowledge around what to do if first there. I'm not criticising the person who was there, more everyone afterwards who has supported him fiddling with the helmet strap.
It's simple. Leave it well alone unless immediate life threatening injuries are present. I've quoted two well regarded bike sources and both agree with me, but I still feel like I'm being ignored for being the new person here.
For that, I'll leave you all to your little clique for a while.
spareparts said:
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Came across the scene of an accident I hoped would never see involving a car and motorbike. Pulled up and got off the bike to lend a hand. Rider was conscious and lucid, he was surprisingly calm. It looked like the car had pulled out of a side road and the biker hit it. Near side front wing of the car was demolished and the bike was in a right state. Looked like a Honda CB400. The car driver didn't seem too upset either. There was a smell of petrol, but none of it was too close to the rider fortunately.
A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
Last year I had a similar impact when a driver ran their red lights. I rode straight into their A-pillar at 40mph, somersaulted 5-6 times through the air and landed 20m away. I was unconscious for 45 mins, and woke up to a person holding my tongue to keep me breathing, as my gear was being cut off me. My helmet was a Schuberth C3 Pro, and it was completely smashed through. It did, however, save my life. My Dainese textiles also limited my injuries from being worse than I sustained. I was strapped into a full body brace, but not before my helmet was fully removed. I could not move either of my legs or my arm at the time. Bottom line - you did the right thing by removing the helmet. Rather a paralysed and breathing person, than a dead one.A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
After several months, although I have no memory of the incident to this day, it was important to me to be able to say thank you to the people who attended to me on the scene and helped keep me breathing for the time I was unconscious, as I would have otherwise asphyxiated. Luckily, I was able to find out who they were, but not without some difficulty given the police and lawyers were involved. Being able to say thank you to the couple who directly attended to me meant a lot. Don't be a stranger to the biker - you played an invaluable role, and I am sure the biker would be keen to say thanks and at least know who helped/save them.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
WaferThinHam said:
DuraAce said:
Gavia said:
You unclipped his helmet? You really should leave that well alone, tight or not it needs full medical supervision before you start messing with it.
PS - hope he was wearing gloves
To be fair, I would have done the same. PS - hope he was wearing gloves
What do you want me to do? Sit and watch him potentially choke to death whilst waiting for a paramedic to arrive?
If the person had no difficulty breathing then I'd leave the helmet alone. Struggling to breathe then I'd losen it. If he wasn't breathing at all then I'd remove it completely.
Gavia said:
WinstonWolf said:
Gavia said:
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Just to be clear. The helmet wasn't removed until the ambulance crew removed it. Not even the fast response paramedic removed it.
I know you didn't, but others have decided that it should be done as a matter of course, which I just can't understand. Even fiddling with the strap could cause some serious issues. Two people fiddled with the clip. I really don't think this thread is a great advert for bikers, as we're demonstrating a basic lack of knowledge around what to do if first there. I'm not criticising the person who was there, more everyone afterwards who has supported him fiddling with the helmet strap.
It's simple. Leave it well alone unless immediate life threatening injuries are present. I've quoted two well regarded bike sources and both agree with me, but I still feel like I'm being ignored for being the new person here.
For that, I'll leave you all to your little clique for a while.
spareparts said:
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Came across the scene of an accident I hoped would never see involving a car and motorbike. Pulled up and got off the bike to lend a hand. Rider was conscious and lucid, he was surprisingly calm. It looked like the car had pulled out of a side road and the biker hit it. Near side front wing of the car was demolished and the bike was in a right state. Looked like a Honda CB400. The car driver didn't seem too upset either. There was a smell of petrol, but none of it was too close to the rider fortunately.
A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
Last year I had a similar impact when a driver ran their red lights. I rode straight into their A-pillar at 40mph, somersaulted 5-6 times through the air and landed 20m away. I was unconscious for 45 mins, and woke up to a person holding my tongue to keep me breathing, as my gear was being cut off me. My helmet was a Schuberth C3 Pro, and it was completely smashed through. It did, however, save my life. My Dainese textiles also limited my injuries from being worse than I sustained. I was strapped into a full body brace, but not before my helmet was fully removed. I could not move either of my legs or my arm at the time. Bottom line - you did the right thing by removing the helmet. Rather a paralysed and breathing person, than a dead one.A small group of us kept him comfortable until the paramedic arrived, who promptly cut the riders gear off. That was when he found a nasty laceration on his lower back, on the right. We stayed with him until he was taken away in an ambulance, which seemed to take forever to arrive. We learnt from the rider he has only been biking for a year. Luckily he had all the right clothing on which saved him from more serious injury. It was in a 30mph speed limit right next to a housing estate. Classic SMIDSY, but it certainly pays to anticipate drivers pulling out of side roads. Fortunately this time there were no serious injuries.
After several months, although I have no memory of the incident to this day, it was important to me to be able to say thank you to the people who attended to me on the scene and helped keep me breathing for the time I was unconscious, as I would have otherwise asphyxiated. Luckily, I was able to find out who they were, but not without some difficulty given the police and lawyers were involved. Being able to say thank you to the couple who directly attended to me meant a lot. Don't be a stranger to the biker - you played an invaluable role, and I am sure the biker would be keen to say thanks and at least know who helped/save them.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
WaferThinHam said:
DuraAce said:
Gavia said:
You unclipped his helmet? You really should leave that well alone, tight or not it needs full medical supervision before you start messing with it.
PS - hope he was wearing gloves
To be fair, I would have done the same. PS - hope he was wearing gloves
What do you want me to do? Sit and watch him potentially choke to death whilst waiting for a paramedic to arrive?
If the person had no difficulty breathing then I'd leave the helmet alone. Struggling to breathe then I'd losen it. If he wasn't breathing at all then I'd remove it completely.
I've done a lot of training in terms of first response to potential spinal injuries and personally if the rider was conscious and wanted to remove their own helmet then I can advise against it but I'm not going to wrestle them into submission if they decide to do it.
If they're unconscious but their breathing/airway appeared to be fine I'd leave everything as is, if they stopped breathing/started vomiting in their helmet then ideally I'd want another person there to enable stabilizing their neck while removing the helmet.
If that's not an option then try and be as gentle as possible but it's got to come off either way.
I see no problem with undoing either a micro ratchet or d ring strap though if the person feels it's constricting their airway though as long as it's done carefully, it minimises the risk of them starting to panic and grab at it potentially causing more injury.
If they're unconscious but their breathing/airway appeared to be fine I'd leave everything as is, if they stopped breathing/started vomiting in their helmet then ideally I'd want another person there to enable stabilizing their neck while removing the helmet.
If that's not an option then try and be as gentle as possible but it's got to come off either way.
I see no problem with undoing either a micro ratchet or d ring strap though if the person feels it's constricting their airway though as long as it's done carefully, it minimises the risk of them starting to panic and grab at it potentially causing more injury.
tom_e said:
I've done a lot of training in terms of first response to potential spinal injuries and personally if the rider was conscious and wanted to remove their own helmet then I can advise against it but I'm not going to wrestle them into submission if they decide to do it.
If they're unconscious but their breathing/airway appeared to be fine I'd leave everything as is, if they stopped breathing/started vomiting in their helmet then ideally I'd want another person there to enable stabilizing their neck while removing the helmet.
If that's not an option then try and be as gentle as possible but it's got to come off either way.
I see no problem with undoing either a micro ratchet or d ring strap though if the person feels it's constricting their airway though as long as it's done carefully, it minimises the risk of them starting to panic and grab at it potentially causing more injury.
This, the riders helmet was stabilised while the strap was being unfastened.If they're unconscious but their breathing/airway appeared to be fine I'd leave everything as is, if they stopped breathing/started vomiting in their helmet then ideally I'd want another person there to enable stabilizing their neck while removing the helmet.
If that's not an option then try and be as gentle as possible but it's got to come off either way.
I see no problem with undoing either a micro ratchet or d ring strap though if the person feels it's constricting their airway though as long as it's done carefully, it minimises the risk of them starting to panic and grab at it potentially causing more injury.
Looking at those pictures above that must have been a very low speed impact as both the car and bike seem relatively intact. The crash I was at, as someone else put it, looked like someone had thrown a load of rubbish all over the road. One thing that did cross my mind when I got my mobile out to phone the wife and let her know I would be a little late, was whether taking photo's of the scene was ok or not. I didn't in the end as quite a few people were watching and didnt feel comfortable doing so. What do other people think when it comes to photographing accident scenes, even when nobody has been killed?
Gavia said:
Helmet advice
Point 4
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2012/october/oc...
NABD - first paragraph
http://www.nabd.org.uk/openhouse/openhouse47/47p6....
I'm sorry guys, but taking the helmet off is a last resort, as is fiddling with it unless there's an absolute need to save the victims life. A conscious, lucid and calm (the words used at the start) victim do not suggest there was anything life threatening about the situation.
Exactly.Point 4
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2012/october/oc...
NABD - first paragraph
http://www.nabd.org.uk/openhouse/openhouse47/47p6....
I'm sorry guys, but taking the helmet off is a last resort, as is fiddling with it unless there's an absolute need to save the victims life. A conscious, lucid and calm (the words used at the start) victim do not suggest there was anything life threatening about the situation.
If you attend any accident involving a rider then the first presumption must be (short of them already being up and walking around), that there MAY be spinal damage. However, also checking they are breathing and loosening, undoing the chin strap to aid breathing, is advisable.
Only if there is sufficient merit should you remove the helmet. If a rider is able to do so and does, well that's their call. If, having ascertained that an individual can feel/move their legs, extremities, (toes, fingers), they request you remove their helmet, or you need to aid them further and require to remove their helmet, should you do so. BUT, I'd suggest you always wait for either a paramedic/ambulance crew/person to arrive before doing so and alternatively, only if do not do so, would risk the victim's situation worsening/or threaten their life.
Saying you'd thank someone for removing your helmet and yet they inadvertently end up helping to paralyze you, is not a situation I hope anyone here ever has to go through.
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