2nd hand GTR vs Bed Pan
Discussion
Just curious if anyone can give me any feedback on either of the bikes above and why they chose one over the other?
I only ever buy 2nd hand and have realised the Pan budget looks like it will go to an '09 with quite low miles whereas, the same money looks to buy a '12 plate GTR, again low miles.
Anyone with either bike who has trod the same road i'd appreciate what influenced your final choice and whether you have been happy?
Ty
I only ever buy 2nd hand and have realised the Pan budget looks like it will go to an '09 with quite low miles whereas, the same money looks to buy a '12 plate GTR, again low miles.
Anyone with either bike who has trod the same road i'd appreciate what influenced your final choice and whether you have been happy?
Ty
I haven't had a GTR but I've had two ST13s and an ST11... most people will whinge on about the ST13 being a fat heavy slow thing that weaves above walking pace and will try to kill you.
On the other hand it'll also do 320+ miles to a tank, actually handles just like any other big bike and as long as you don't HAVE to go everywhere above 130mph (where the weave usually sets in, and even then dependant on a number of factors that I won't repeat here yet again
) is probably quicker than you'd expect. The weight is irrelevant most of the time, unless you plan to push it around a lot.
Service intervals measured in light years and then easy to do yourself, plenty of tyre choice, still a good-looking bike.
On the other hand, having just looked at the spec. of a GTR I'm surprised you're even considering the Pan?
Another 40bhp & 20lb. ft. of torque, selectable braking, traction control, variable valve timing, keyless ignition blah blah... hell, I almost fancy one myself
On the other hand it'll also do 320+ miles to a tank, actually handles just like any other big bike and as long as you don't HAVE to go everywhere above 130mph (where the weave usually sets in, and even then dependant on a number of factors that I won't repeat here yet again
) is probably quicker than you'd expect. The weight is irrelevant most of the time, unless you plan to push it around a lot.Service intervals measured in light years and then easy to do yourself, plenty of tyre choice, still a good-looking bike.
On the other hand, having just looked at the spec. of a GTR I'm surprised you're even considering the Pan?
Another 40bhp & 20lb. ft. of torque, selectable braking, traction control, variable valve timing, keyless ignition blah blah... hell, I almost fancy one myself
I've had a Pan for several years. Also test rode the Kwaka GTR before I bought the Pan.
Pan is big and comfortable, but not really that fast as it only has 120hp or something plus it weighs 320kg wet. You can ride it all day and not feel tired. Most of them have an aerodynamic instability which sets in about 110mph. Supposedly you can ride through it and it stops about 130mph, but I've never been game to try. So treat 110mph as the maximum speed unless you really nurse it. V4 engine makes a nice change from an I4. Pan has built in roll-over bars so you can get clumsy in a car park and drop it and you won't damage anything.
The Kwaka is faster, but I personally found it too tall and less comfortable. Also it is 5 INCHES wider than a Pan!!!! The Pan is already wide, so the extra 5 inches on a GTR is ridiculous.
Both of them are made for A-roads or good B-roads. Fun level decreases on busted up single track roads or in heavy traffic.
Pan is big and comfortable, but not really that fast as it only has 120hp or something plus it weighs 320kg wet. You can ride it all day and not feel tired. Most of them have an aerodynamic instability which sets in about 110mph. Supposedly you can ride through it and it stops about 130mph, but I've never been game to try. So treat 110mph as the maximum speed unless you really nurse it. V4 engine makes a nice change from an I4. Pan has built in roll-over bars so you can get clumsy in a car park and drop it and you won't damage anything.
The Kwaka is faster, but I personally found it too tall and less comfortable. Also it is 5 INCHES wider than a Pan!!!! The Pan is already wide, so the extra 5 inches on a GTR is ridiculous.
Both of them are made for A-roads or good B-roads. Fun level decreases on busted up single track roads or in heavy traffic.
Edited by creampuff on Sunday 22 January 06:30
Most tourers ARE wider than the ST13 (Pan). The ST was designed to have integral panniers from the outset so the inner faces of them are actually under the rear seat, where most other bikes have them hung on frames as an afterthought. The widest part of an ST is the mirrors (like most bikes) and although it's actually narrower at that point than some bikes, on a lot of (most?) bikes the mirrors are a lot higher so the low position of the mirrors on the ST means they coincide with a lot of car mirrors and THAT's when it gets hard to filter. Time your passes and it's less of an issue - if the mirrors go through, the rest of the bike will follow no problem.
Also (not to contradict the 'puff) IMHO 'Pan weave' sets in at 130, not 110... but it does depend on whether you have panniers only, panniers and topbox, full luggage and a pillion plus your own build, screen height etc. so it doesn't surprise me that the 'puff has experienced it slower. I did talk to a guy who claimed he had it above 80mph so god knows what his combination of factors was.
Looks like there are as many GTRs as Pan Euros for sale so finding either should be easy.
I bought my 54-plate, 1-owner ST in 2010 when it had 21K summer-only miles, paid £6000 so the same money now should be getting you one of the last (2011 built I think).. same money looks to be good for a tidy pre-facelift GTR.
I'd be less concerned about mileage on an ST than whether it was used year-round; mine has been averaging 4K a year from new (it's on 44K now) but has never seen salt.
The fork legs and lower fairings suffer a lot from road-rash, it shows up less on silver paintwork but look out for it - a 'fender extender' probably helps. Otherwise I don't know of any single thing that is known to fail predictably on the ST - even most of the lightbulbs on mine are original!
ETA: the ST is an absolute riot on Alpine hairpins; just tip it in till things start sparking then use the torque to grunt you out. Watch it if you straight-line roundabouts as it's possible to deck the centrestand on the kerb
Also (not to contradict the 'puff
) IMHO 'Pan weave' sets in at 130, not 110... but it does depend on whether you have panniers only, panniers and topbox, full luggage and a pillion plus your own build, screen height etc. so it doesn't surprise me that the 'puff has experienced it slower. I did talk to a guy who claimed he had it above 80mph so god knows what his combination of factors was.Looks like there are as many GTRs as Pan Euros for sale so finding either should be easy.
I bought my 54-plate, 1-owner ST in 2010 when it had 21K summer-only miles, paid £6000 so the same money now should be getting you one of the last (2011 built I think).. same money looks to be good for a tidy pre-facelift GTR.
I'd be less concerned about mileage on an ST than whether it was used year-round; mine has been averaging 4K a year from new (it's on 44K now) but has never seen salt.
The fork legs and lower fairings suffer a lot from road-rash, it shows up less on silver paintwork but look out for it - a 'fender extender' probably helps. Otherwise I don't know of any single thing that is known to fail predictably on the ST - even most of the lightbulbs on mine are original!
ETA: the ST is an absolute riot on Alpine hairpins; just tip it in till things start sparking then use the torque to grunt you out. Watch it if you straight-line roundabouts as it's possible to deck the centrestand on the kerb
Edited by Wedg1e on Sunday 22 January 17:48
^ Yes it is a bit silly. IMHO the GTR is totally unsuited for a commuting. From memory the widest part on the GTR is the mirrors. The GTR also doesn't seem drop friendly like the Pan, which is something to consider with a big heavy bike as you can always get clumsy parking it and drop it. The mirrors and the rear panniers on the Pan are about the same. If you are going in a straight line on the Pan, if the mirrors make it, the rest of the bike will too. I think the Pan is a great bike which can do most things well despite the weight and relatively low power for a 1300cc engine. The headlights on the Pan are also really good both for seeing stuff and being seen. The Pan does look stupid without the panniers on though. You really need to leave them on all the time. Both the side panniers hold a full size helmet. If you buy the Pan, get one with a colour matched top box.
The other bikes you could look at are the FJR and the CBF-1000 with full set of factory panniers and top box. If you are going to commute in traffic and filter a lot then personally I'd get a bike which weighs less than 250kg which none of the big touring bikes do. The CBF-1000 should fit that weight limit though.
The other bikes you could look at are the FJR and the CBF-1000 with full set of factory panniers and top box. If you are going to commute in traffic and filter a lot then personally I'd get a bike which weighs less than 250kg which none of the big touring bikes do. The CBF-1000 should fit that weight limit though.
Wedg1e said:
Also (not to contradict the 'puff ) IMHO 'Pan weave' sets in at 130, not 110... but it does depend on whether you have panniers only, panniers and topbox, full luggage and a pillion plus your own build, screen height etc. so it doesn't surprise me that the 'puff has experienced it slower. I did talk to a guy who claimed he had it above 80mph so god knows what his combination of factors was.
I've never actually got a weave (whole bike drifting from side to side) which is what is usually talked about. What happens with my bike is the front wheel starts to feel light approaching 100mph and at 110mph it is really uncomfortably light. This happens on mine both with and without the top box, but it is worse with the top box. I also had one instance on the motorway at 100mph+ where I got about a 3 cycles/second oscillation through the handlebars which I did not like at all. Fastest I've had mine is 127mph off the GPS, but I was really nursing it to get there. I think Honda recommends 42psi front and rear, but I use 42psi rear and 39psi front. ) IMHO 'Pan weave' sets in at 130, not 110... but it does depend on whether you have panniers only, panniers and topbox, full luggage and a pillion plus your own build, screen height etc. so it doesn't surprise me that the 'puff has experienced it slower. I did talk to a guy who claimed he had it above 80mph so god knows what his combination of factors was.The Pan is a great bike for eating distance. I've done a 16 hour, 650 mile day on it of which about 300 miles was twisties and still felt ok afterwards and I could have done it again the next day.
The other good thing about a Pan is you can put a 2 metre long 16mm Almax chain in the pannier and it doesn't really make any difference
Re. dropping... I threw mine down a road in Luxembourg at about 60mph last year. The bike travelled about 50 feet (maybe more, I'm useless at judging distance, check out my 27" todger ) on its right side and the front wheel rammed a steel post holding up an Armco barrier. Wheel rim obviously broke, then as it was revolving it clouted the auxiliary master cyl. for the linked brakes.
When we stood the bike up it was hard to spot any damage apart from the crash bar. Further investigation revealed both stanchions were slightly bent and the right pannier has a slight scrape along its bottom edge (probably touched down a the crash bar was wearing away on the tarmac!). NONE of the paintwork is damaged, nor are the pipes or handlebars.
As the ST has a tipover sensor it cut the engine so that was never a concern; I replaced the stanchions, wheel, aux. cylinder and have just found a replacement crashbar.
Five weeks later I rode it around Scotland - and it took three of those for it to get home from Luxembourg.
) on its right side and the front wheel rammed a steel post holding up an Armco barrier. Wheel rim obviously broke, then as it was revolving it clouted the auxiliary master cyl. for the linked brakes.When we stood the bike up it was hard to spot any damage apart from the crash bar. Further investigation revealed both stanchions were slightly bent and the right pannier has a slight scrape along its bottom edge (probably touched down a the crash bar was wearing away on the tarmac!). NONE of the paintwork is damaged, nor are the pipes or handlebars.
As the ST has a tipover sensor it cut the engine so that was never a concern; I replaced the stanchions, wheel, aux. cylinder and have just found a replacement crashbar.
Five weeks later I rode it around Scotland - and it took three of those for it to get home from Luxembourg.
Wedg1e said:
Re. dropping... I threw mine down a road in Luxembourg at about 60mph last year.
Must be Luxembourg. I had a tyre blow out (in the car) in Luxembourg last year. Why does the seat on your bike look like it has ripples on it? Are you too fat? Another good thing about the Pan is it has a 700 watt alternator. You can run all manner of stuff off it. You will never run into a situation where you have heated grips, heated jacket, GPS, phone charging but your intercom system isn't getting enough juice to play your Barry Manilow MP3 track.
Back in the day, we started to swap our work ST1100s for 1300s - these were all 'authority' spec, single seat, with a hump over the rear to house perhaps 5-6kg of radio packs and the like. Usual routine for new bikes on the fleet was for the driving school instructors to have them for a week or so to try them out, then hand them over to us for patrol work. There was no test-riding done by us prior to purchase btw, the bikes we ran were all HO approved for use, Fleet Management made the decision to buy based entirely on cost, we got what we were given!
Anyway, the instructors had no issues with them at all, the first 3 got handed over and we were good to go. The first issue cropped up when one was being ridden down a local dc at around 110mph. Rider was very experienced, weighed in at around 13st.....he reported a front wheel lightness as he took a sweeping left hander, then a very scary weave that he didn't have the bottle to ride through. It shook him up a bit! Over the next couple of weeks, other riders had similar issues. Honda UK sent a rider and a tech guy out, they stayed for a week or more but never managed to recreate the problem. They convinced Fleet Management there was nothing wrong, but the guys who'd experienced the weave invariably took out the RTs or FJRs afterwards. I never had a problem, even though I was always expecting it to rear its head.
Enough riders did experience it though - reports were submitted, once it was committed to paper, the bosses bottled it for fear of liability issues should the worst happen. Honda wouldn't have the bikes back. Fleet Management wouldn't/daren't auction them off - 6 of them were dismantled, the frames cut into small pieces and the major components sold off bit by bit!
I'd have a 1300 tomorrow (in fact, I'm looking for one at the moment to replace my R1200ST) - ultra comfy for a full shift, great fun at speed, even round the twisty bits, and operators who hung on to them claimed reliability on-par with the 1100 (my last work 1100 racked up 85k miles in 3 years, it never missed a beat).
Pete
Anyway, the instructors had no issues with them at all, the first 3 got handed over and we were good to go. The first issue cropped up when one was being ridden down a local dc at around 110mph. Rider was very experienced, weighed in at around 13st.....he reported a front wheel lightness as he took a sweeping left hander, then a very scary weave that he didn't have the bottle to ride through. It shook him up a bit! Over the next couple of weeks, other riders had similar issues. Honda UK sent a rider and a tech guy out, they stayed for a week or more but never managed to recreate the problem. They convinced Fleet Management there was nothing wrong, but the guys who'd experienced the weave invariably took out the RTs or FJRs afterwards. I never had a problem, even though I was always expecting it to rear its head.
Enough riders did experience it though - reports were submitted, once it was committed to paper, the bosses bottled it for fear of liability issues should the worst happen. Honda wouldn't have the bikes back. Fleet Management wouldn't/daren't auction them off - 6 of them were dismantled, the frames cut into small pieces and the major components sold off bit by bit!
I'd have a 1300 tomorrow (in fact, I'm looking for one at the moment to replace my R1200ST) - ultra comfy for a full shift, great fun at speed, even round the twisty bits, and operators who hung on to them claimed reliability on-par with the 1100 (my last work 1100 racked up 85k miles in 3 years, it never missed a beat).
Pete
milleplod said:
I'd have a 1300 tomorrow (in fact, I'm looking for one at the moment to replace my R1200ST) - ultra comfy for a full shift, great fun at speed, even round the twisty bits, and operators who hung on to them claimed reliability on-par with the 1100 (my last work 1100 racked up 85k miles in 3 years, it never missed a beat).
Pete
My first ST was an 1100, 1998 S-plate with 99000 on when I bought it in 2006. It lived in Reading and the owner was up and down the M4 so much it was getting serviced every few weeks - came with two service books full of stamps. Last I heard (three or four years ago) it was on 107,000 and still going strong.Pete
I'd only done 2000 miles on it when I bought the first 13 and only rode the 1100 twice after that - to and from the place I kept it until it was sold.
I'm only on the second '13 because some ar53-pipe in a Clio knocked me off the first one at a pedestrian crossing in 2010 (7 years ago next month in fact).
As you say the ST13 is a lot better on a twisty road than the image suggests, but then if you strip all the bodywork off, it's actually not that much bulkier than any other large-capacity bike.
milleplod said:
Back in the day, we started to swap our work ST1100s for 1300s - these were all 'authority' spec, single seat, with a hump over the rear to house perhaps 5-6kg of radio packs and the like. Usual routine for new bikes on the fleet was for the driving school instructors to have them for a week or so to try them out, then hand them over to us for patrol work. There was no test-riding done by us prior to purchase btw, the bikes we ran were all HO approved for use, Fleet Management made the decision to buy based entirely on cost, we got what we were given!
Anyway, the instructors had no issues with them at all, the first 3 got handed over and we were good to go. The first issue cropped up when one was being ridden down a local dc at around 110mph. Rider was very experienced, weighed in at around 13st.....he reported a front wheel lightness as he took a sweeping left hander, then a very scary weave that he didn't have the bottle to ride through. It shook him up a bit! Over the next couple of weeks, other riders had similar issues. Honda UK sent a rider and a tech guy out, they stayed for a week or more but never managed to recreate the problem. They convinced Fleet Management there was nothing wrong, but the guys who'd experienced the weave invariably took out the RTs or FJRs afterwards. I never had a problem, even though I was always expecting it to rear its head.
Enough riders did experience it though - reports were submitted, once it was committed to paper, the bosses bottled it for fear of liability issues should the worst happen. Honda wouldn't have the bikes back. Fleet Management wouldn't/daren't auction them off - 6 of them were dismantled, the frames cut into small pieces and the major components sold off bit by bit!
I'd have a 1300 tomorrow (in fact, I'm looking for one at the moment to replace my R1200ST) - ultra comfy for a full shift, great fun at speed, even round the twisty bits, and operators who hung on to them claimed reliability on-par with the 1100 (my last work 1100 racked up 85k miles in 3 years, it never missed a beat).
Pete
Pete, as I understand it, the weave was eventually solved so later bikes its not an issue?Anyway, the instructors had no issues with them at all, the first 3 got handed over and we were good to go. The first issue cropped up when one was being ridden down a local dc at around 110mph. Rider was very experienced, weighed in at around 13st.....he reported a front wheel lightness as he took a sweeping left hander, then a very scary weave that he didn't have the bottle to ride through. It shook him up a bit! Over the next couple of weeks, other riders had similar issues. Honda UK sent a rider and a tech guy out, they stayed for a week or more but never managed to recreate the problem. They convinced Fleet Management there was nothing wrong, but the guys who'd experienced the weave invariably took out the RTs or FJRs afterwards. I never had a problem, even though I was always expecting it to rear its head.
Enough riders did experience it though - reports were submitted, once it was committed to paper, the bosses bottled it for fear of liability issues should the worst happen. Honda wouldn't have the bikes back. Fleet Management wouldn't/daren't auction them off - 6 of them were dismantled, the frames cut into small pieces and the major components sold off bit by bit!
I'd have a 1300 tomorrow (in fact, I'm looking for one at the moment to replace my R1200ST) - ultra comfy for a full shift, great fun at speed, even round the twisty bits, and operators who hung on to them claimed reliability on-par with the 1100 (my last work 1100 racked up 85k miles in 3 years, it never missed a beat).
Pete
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