R1 stolen in broad daylight
Discussion
tight5 said:
Maybe if one person wades in some more would too ?
I know if I didn't have a go I'd have trouble with my conscience.
I think it may go the other way, if you did manage to round up an impromptu posse and led the charge it may be that come the moment you actually found yourself on your own or with severely diminished numbers.I know if I didn't have a go I'd have trouble with my conscience.
rapide said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-392330...
He was later cleared. But yes, our laws/ culture need work.
Personally I'd still chance it with pushing a yob off a moped, rather than become a passive, walk on by, look only after number one type.
Yes he was cleared, but he spent £30,000 of his own money on his defence and being on trial for GBH, with the likelihood of jail if convicted, would be highly stressful. He was later cleared. But yes, our laws/ culture need work.
Personally I'd still chance it with pushing a yob off a moped, rather than become a passive, walk on by, look only after number one type.
You can expect if there is any doubt, you will be prosecuted. You are guaranteed to have your actions looked at in the minutest detail to see if you have done anything wrong, with a view to prosecuting you.
creampuff said:
rapide said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-392330...
He was later cleared. But yes, our laws/ culture need work.
Personally I'd still chance it with pushing a yob off a moped, rather than become a passive, walk on by, look only after number one type.
Yes he was cleared, but he spent £30,000 of his own money on his defence and being on trial for GBH, with the likelihood of jail if convicted, would be highly stressful. He was later cleared. But yes, our laws/ culture need work.
Personally I'd still chance it with pushing a yob off a moped, rather than become a passive, walk on by, look only after number one type.
You can expect if there is any doubt, you will be prosecuted. You are guaranteed to have your actions looked at in the minutest detail to see if you have done anything wrong, with a view to prosecuting you.
Where the CPS are convinced your use of force was lawful, proportionate & necessary it doesn't go before the court to decide (as per the link I provided).
That all seems entirely appropriate, fairly obvious & straight forward = no charges, doubtful & questionable = court to decide.
vonhosen said:
If the CPS have looked at it & aren't convinced that you didn't use excessive/unlawful force & that resulted in serious injury/death then surely a court is exactly who should be deciding the matter, that's what they are there for.
Where the CPS are convinced your use of force was lawful, proportionate & necessary it doesn't go before the court to decide (as per the link I provided).
That all seems entirely appropriate, fairly obvious & straight forward = no charges, doubtful & questionable = court to decide.
The jury deliberated for 24 minutes before returning a not guilty verdict, which suggests it was a clear cut not guilty. The crook was only shot in the foot, so while it may sound dramatic, being shot in the foot by a shotgun loaded with birdshot (which is all you can realistically buy in the U.K.) at a reasonable stand off distance is not a serious injury (recall former Vice President Cheney shot one of his mates in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot and the guy lived). The person prosecuted was also in his 80s and any injury or getting knocked over and breaking a bone when you are in your 80s can end your life within a few months. 20% of elderly people who fracture their hip are dead within a year. Where the CPS are convinced your use of force was lawful, proportionate & necessary it doesn't go before the court to decide (as per the link I provided).
That all seems entirely appropriate, fairly obvious & straight forward = no charges, doubtful & questionable = court to decide.
I'd say the police/CPS really do not want anybody defending themselves and will prosecute even if a conviction is less likely rather than likely.
Trouble is thugs today know that they can do what they want cos law abiding citizens have been turned into sheep by the very laws that are supposed to protect us.
I know that if I have to spend time in court even if found not guilty, it would a financial disaster due to being self employed.
The thugs don't care about being banged up or spending days in court as it's all part of their lives.
I know that if I have to spend time in court even if found not guilty, it would a financial disaster due to being self employed.
The thugs don't care about being banged up or spending days in court as it's all part of their lives.
creampuff said:
The jury deliberated for 24 minutes before returning a not guilty verdict, which suggests it was a clear cut not guilty. The crook was only shot in the foot, so while it may sound dramatic, being shot in the foot by a shotgun loaded with birdshot (which is all you can realistically buy in the U.K.) at a reasonable stand off distance is not a serious injury (recall former Vice President Cheney shot one of his mates in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot and the guy lived). The person prosecuted was also in his 80s and any injury or getting knocked over and breaking a bone when you are in your 80s can end your life within a few months. 20% of elderly people who fracture their hip are dead within a year.
I'd say the police/CPS really do not want anybody defending themselves and will prosecute even if a conviction is less likely rather than likely.
The CPS just want convictions irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the case, and someone generally law abiding is usually a softer target than a 'no comment' scrote with solicitor on fast dial.I'd say the police/CPS really do not want anybody defending themselves and will prosecute even if a conviction is less likely rather than likely.
sjtscott said:
croyde said:
Probably being a bit thick here but aren't modern bikes like that fitted with immobilisers?
How do they start them so quickly?
Admittedly they started my Street Triple with a screwdriver. It was the disc lock that stopped em. Fekers.
Look again they don't start the engines since they all have factory fit immobilisers requiring a coded ignition key.How do they start them so quickly?
Admittedly they started my Street Triple with a screwdriver. It was the disc lock that stopped em. Fekers.
The bike is pushed along by the big scooter riders foot.. the stolen bike is freewheeled.
My 2011 Speed has a key based immobiliser they won't be starting that without one of the two ignitions keys but they don't do that as I said. I specifically waited until Triumph finally played catchup with these immobilisers having had HISS on last two Hondas before I bought one.
Edited by sjtscott on Friday 17th March 16:40
croyde said:
Trouble is thugs today know that they can do what they want cos law abiding citizens have been turned into sheep by the very laws that are supposed to protect us.
I know that if I have to spend time in court even if found not guilty, it would a financial disaster due to being self employed.
The thugs don't care about being banged up or spending days in court as it's all part of their lives.
What a load of bI know that if I have to spend time in court even if found not guilty, it would a financial disaster due to being self employed.
The thugs don't care about being banged up or spending days in court as it's all part of their lives.
ks. I wouldn't have tackled four guys nicking a bike in the 80s, 90s, 00s or now. Apart from the movies one bloke can not beat four croyde said:
I meant generally. We are told to just hand things over, do nothing. Thus the scum now know we are easy pickings.
I wasn't suggesting that someone piles into all four, just that people like those four know that nowadays they can get away with it.
The advice hasn't changed though over the decades. I wasn't suggesting that someone piles into all four, just that people like those four know that nowadays they can get away with it.
Dr Jekyll said:
The CPS just want convictions irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the case, and someone generally law abiding is usually a softer target than a 'no comment' scrote with solicitor on fast dial.
The police themselves are also subject to the same current interpretation of the laws regarding reasonable force or duty of care. The police themselves could well find themselves being prosecuted and even if not prosecuted, they are guaranteed to be the subject of a detailed and extended investigation if anything goes wrong. One of the parties who will be investigating them is the IPCC who have in the past deliberately withheld evidence which was favourable to the police officer being investigated. I really am not one tiny little bit surprised that the general public and often the police will do nothing. How many people on here would really open themselves up for a detailed investigation followed by possible prosecution if they intervene? We get the level of law enforcement we deserve.
creampuff said:
vonhosen said:
If the CPS have looked at it & aren't convinced that you didn't use excessive/unlawful force & that resulted in serious injury/death then surely a court is exactly who should be deciding the matter, that's what they are there for.
Where the CPS are convinced your use of force was lawful, proportionate & necessary it doesn't go before the court to decide (as per the link I provided).
That all seems entirely appropriate, fairly obvious & straight forward = no charges, doubtful & questionable = court to decide.
The jury deliberated for 24 minutes before returning a not guilty verdict, which suggests it was a clear cut not guilty. The crook was only shot in the foot, so while it may sound dramatic, being shot in the foot by a shotgun loaded with birdshot (which is all you can realistically buy in the U.K.) at a reasonable stand off distance is not a serious injury (recall former Vice President Cheney shot one of his mates in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot and the guy lived). The person prosecuted was also in his 80s and any injury or getting knocked over and breaking a bone when you are in your 80s can end your life within a few months. 20% of elderly people who fracture their hip are dead within a year. Where the CPS are convinced your use of force was lawful, proportionate & necessary it doesn't go before the court to decide (as per the link I provided).
That all seems entirely appropriate, fairly obvious & straight forward = no charges, doubtful & questionable = court to decide.
I'd say the police/CPS really do not want anybody defending themselves and will prosecute even if a conviction is less likely rather than likely.
The CPS are happy for people to act within the law as my previous link demonstrates. Each case will be judged on it's own merits.
I certainly don't want people to be able use whatever force they like against others without there being any judicial investigation/review of it.
creampuff said:
We get the level of law enforcement we deserve.
I believe we deserve better, better than having to put up with serious criminals getting an easy ride whilst decent people are persecuted for stepping on the cracks in the pavement, unfortunately the spineless, self-serving 'elite' that somehow get into power think otherwise...vonhosen said:
If it was clear cut the defence could have made an application earlier on for it to be chucked out by the judge.
The CPS are happy for people to act within the law as my previous link demonstrates. Each case will be judged on it's own merits.
I certainly don't want people to be able use whatever force they like against others without there being any judicial investigation/review of it.
It's not an A or B choice of impotent police and members of the public like we have in the UK or extrajudicial killings like in Brazil or the Philippines. There are plenty of countries similar to the U.K., such as Canada or Australia where the first thought of the police or private citizens if they act to prevent a crime, is that they could end up on trial. The CPS are happy for people to act within the law as my previous link demonstrates. Each case will be judged on it's own merits.
I certainly don't want people to be able use whatever force they like against others without there being any judicial investigation/review of it.
creampuff said:
vonhosen said:
If it was clear cut the defence could have made an application earlier on for it to be chucked out by the judge.
The CPS are happy for people to act within the law as my previous link demonstrates. Each case will be judged on it's own merits.
I certainly don't want people to be able use whatever force they like against others without there being any judicial investigation/review of it.
It's not an A or B choice of impotent police and members of the public like we have in the UK or extrajudicial killings like in Brazil or the Philippines. There are plenty of countries similar to the U.K., such as Canada or Australia where the first thought of the police or private citizens if they act to prevent a crime, is that they could end up on trial. The CPS are happy for people to act within the law as my previous link demonstrates. Each case will be judged on it's own merits.
I certainly don't want people to be able use whatever force they like against others without there being any judicial investigation/review of it.
^ I can tell you that the thought of me being arrested, investigated, prosecuted or all three would be the first thing I'd think of if I saw a bike being stolen and was temped to intervene. Right after that would be the thought of a civil claim from the petty crook if they were injured in the process. After I thought about all that, only then would I wonder if they were armed.
This article says the number of citizens arrests carried out by the public is only 15% of what it was a decade and a half ago. The actual drop in number of citizens arrests will be even larger, given PCSOs are now on the scene and any arrest they perform is a citizens arrest.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/89667...
Cannot blame the public one bit. Why risk prosecution on top of the risk of injury from performing the citizens arrest itself?
This article says the number of citizens arrests carried out by the public is only 15% of what it was a decade and a half ago. The actual drop in number of citizens arrests will be even larger, given PCSOs are now on the scene and any arrest they perform is a citizens arrest.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/89667...
Cannot blame the public one bit. Why risk prosecution on top of the risk of injury from performing the citizens arrest itself?
creampuff said:
^ I can tell you that the thought of me being arrested, investigated, prosecuted or all three would be the first thing I'd think of if I saw a bike being stolen and was temped to intervene. Right after that would be the thought of a civil claim from the petty crook if they were injured in the process. After I thought about all that, only then would I wonder if they were armed.
This article says the number of citizens arrests carried out by the public is only 15% of what it was a decade and a half ago. The actual drop in number of citizens arrests will be even larger, given PCSOs are now on the scene and any arrest they perform is a citizens arrest.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/89667...
Cannot blame the public one bit. Why risk prosecution on top of the risk of injury from performing the citizens arrest itself?
That's your prerogative.This article says the number of citizens arrests carried out by the public is only 15% of what it was a decade and a half ago. The actual drop in number of citizens arrests will be even larger, given PCSOs are now on the scene and any arrest they perform is a citizens arrest.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/89667...
Cannot blame the public one bit. Why risk prosecution on top of the risk of injury from performing the citizens arrest itself?
We are a more self centred society than we were a decade & a half ago all round.
they'll nick a few bikes and think they're the dogs bks then they'll get nicked for something petty..do some time, lead stty lives and end up dying before they're 35 because they're pond life with no future.
Meanwhile society will continue to be shocked at relatively minor crimes (like nicking a motorbike in the daytime) whilst murder and genocide, war, disease, famine and other abhorrent occurrences go largely un-noticed throughout the world. So here's my take on the situation...one day you'll be called upon to do something really "epic" to prevent harm/tragedy/death to someone/loads of people/nations of people.
Imagine how pissed off you'd be if at that moment you couldn't help those people because previously.....you saw someone nicking a bike, not your bike, not even the bike of someone you know, and as you waded in like some kind of misguided vigilante on a mission....one of them stabbed/hammered/angle grindered you which caused you a debilitating injury which apart from ruining yours and your families lives meant that now....just when you really do need to intervene to help those people in real need of your good intentions you couldn't.....
One chance at life...I certainly won't be risking my health for anything other than the life of another person. 👍
ks then they'll get nicked for something petty..do some time, lead stty lives and end up dying before they're 35 because they're pond life with no future. Meanwhile society will continue to be shocked at relatively minor crimes (like nicking a motorbike in the daytime) whilst murder and genocide, war, disease, famine and other abhorrent occurrences go largely un-noticed throughout the world. So here's my take on the situation...one day you'll be called upon to do something really "epic" to prevent harm/tragedy/death to someone/loads of people/nations of people.
Imagine how pissed off you'd be if at that moment you couldn't help those people because previously.....you saw someone nicking a bike, not your bike, not even the bike of someone you know, and as you waded in like some kind of misguided vigilante on a mission....one of them stabbed/hammered/angle grindered you which caused you a debilitating injury which apart from ruining yours and your families lives meant that now....just when you really do need to intervene to help those people in real need of your good intentions you couldn't.....
One chance at life...I certainly won't be risking my health for anything other than the life of another person. 👍
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