"That" moment.....
Discussion
You know the one, You've entered a corner waaaaay too hot, not realising it tightens and you are going too quick to make it round (or at least you believe you are).
Do you lean over a bit further? (i.e. more than you thought you/your bike was capable of?)
It was reasuring to see Stoner in a similar (not identical) situation at the Laguna GP when he made that mistake (by his own admission) and had to avoid Rossi and ended up going into the kitty litter. Could he have cornered harder, and stayed on the track?
So, in principal, what is the best way to deal with this situation?
Do you lean over a bit further? (i.e. more than you thought you/your bike was capable of?)
It was reasuring to see Stoner in a similar (not identical) situation at the Laguna GP when he made that mistake (by his own admission) and had to avoid Rossi and ended up going into the kitty litter. Could he have cornered harder, and stayed on the track?
So, in principal, what is the best way to deal with this situation?
Generally speaking, the bike is probably able to make it even if you don't think you can. The temptation is to believe you're going to come a cropper, then you get target fixation and do just that!
Just try to make it - bl00dy hard to do, but you'll be surprised what you can get away with.
Just try to make it - bl00dy hard to do, but you'll be surprised what you can get away with.
You've nothing to lose by leaning further and trying to get round... look for where the roads goes, and don't get 'target fixated' on the tree/hedge/kerb on the outside of the corner - if the bike can't make it, then you were going in way too fast...
ETA - Snap!!
ETA - Snap!!
Edited by Schmeeky on Friday 25th July 13:11
What you should do:
Lean the bike as far as you can. (Unless there are large amounts of metal dragging on the ground then the bike can lean further!) Use counter steering techniques to get the bike over as far and as quickly as possible.
Have the throttle very slightly open so that the bike is slowly accelerating. (I can never manage this but a neutral throttle is an OK compromise!)
Look through the bend and focus on the point where the corners opens back out again. DO NOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THIS POINT.
Relax. (I didn’t say it would be easy!!!)
What you shouldn’t do:
Brake! (Front brake with any force is an almost guaranteed visit to the scenery!)
Look at the bank/tarmac/hedge/on-coming traffic that you think you might be heading for.
Brake
Shut the throttle. (That loads more weight onto the front wheel – not good!)
Did I say brake?
Tense up. (Especially true for your arms!)
Touch the brakes.
Lean the bike as far as you can. (Unless there are large amounts of metal dragging on the ground then the bike can lean further!) Use counter steering techniques to get the bike over as far and as quickly as possible.
Have the throttle very slightly open so that the bike is slowly accelerating. (I can never manage this but a neutral throttle is an OK compromise!)
Look through the bend and focus on the point where the corners opens back out again. DO NOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THIS POINT.
Relax. (I didn’t say it would be easy!!!)
What you shouldn’t do:
Brake! (Front brake with any force is an almost guaranteed visit to the scenery!)
Look at the bank/tarmac/hedge/on-coming traffic that you think you might be heading for.
Brake
Shut the throttle. (That loads more weight onto the front wheel – not good!)
Did I say brake?
Tense up. (Especially true for your arms!)
Touch the brakes.
Stig said:
Generally speaking, the bike is probably able to make it even if you don't think you can. The temptation is to believe you're going to come a cropper, then you get target fixation and do just that!
Just try to make it - bl00dy hard to do, but you'll be surprised what you can get away with.
Just try to make it - bl00dy hard to do, but you'll be surprised what you can get away with.
Schmeeky said:
You've nothing to lose by leaning further and trying to get round...
Cheers guys, that's pretty much what I thought.I suppose the difficult bit is convincing yourself that you & the bike can lean further.
(and thinking back to my own 'moments', I have no doubt that I could have leant further).
Just been looking at the footage of Stoners incident. Any idea why he didn't lean a bit more at 0:34?
I think we probably all understand what we need to do; that is, unless metal parts are starting to dig in then you should just steer/lean the bike more. Dropping your upper body and elbow to the inside of the turn, and looking hard for the exit and not the shrubbery will also give you more of a chance.
From my experience though, the problem is when that bolt of panic hits you, like a wave of nausea and ice, and you start to freeze up and fixate on the part of the scenery you think you're going to hit.
Knowing what to do and being able to do it are two different things.
I've used two approaches to try and deal with this.
The first was to start doing track days, so that you have some practice of hard cornering and perhaps a bit more faith in the bike's ability to lean right over.
The second is visualisation, where I sit down and imagine myself in that panic situation, and I visualise myself doing the correct action and not the panic action, try and see it in as much detail as possible and repeat the successful outcome over and over again.
Prevention being better than cure, it's also wise to look into using a systematic method for approaching corners, such as thirds, or having set your speed three hazard lines back from the entry point.
I used to play a lot of guitar, and my teacher was always stressing that to play fast, you have to play relaxed and clean/accurate, then the speed comes natural and easy. Concentrating on achieving an accurate ride can be just as much fun as brains out, and is a lot less stressful!
From my experience though, the problem is when that bolt of panic hits you, like a wave of nausea and ice, and you start to freeze up and fixate on the part of the scenery you think you're going to hit.
Knowing what to do and being able to do it are two different things.
I've used two approaches to try and deal with this.
The first was to start doing track days, so that you have some practice of hard cornering and perhaps a bit more faith in the bike's ability to lean right over.
The second is visualisation, where I sit down and imagine myself in that panic situation, and I visualise myself doing the correct action and not the panic action, try and see it in as much detail as possible and repeat the successful outcome over and over again.
Prevention being better than cure, it's also wise to look into using a systematic method for approaching corners, such as thirds, or having set your speed three hazard lines back from the entry point.
I used to play a lot of guitar, and my teacher was always stressing that to play fast, you have to play relaxed and clean/accurate, then the speed comes natural and easy. Concentrating on achieving an accurate ride can be just as much fun as brains out, and is a lot less stressful!
black-k1 said:
Lots of useful stuff including:
Have the throttle very slightly open so that the bike is slowly accelerating. (I can never manage this but a neutral throttle is an OK compromise!)
Have the throttle very slightly open so that the bike is slowly accelerating. (I can never manage this but a neutral throttle is an OK compromise!)
I'm always far more comfortable accelerating through corners but, again, it's hard to tell your brain to apply more throttle when your senses are telling you ther root of the problem is that you're arrived at the corner too quickly in the first place.
...and yes, I know braking would be a bad idea!
711 said:
From my experience though, the problem is when that bolt of panic hits you, like a wave of nausea and ice, and you start to freeze up and fixate on the part of the scenery you think you're going to hit.
That's the one!
I'll point out that, in a good number of years riding, this has only happened a handful of times, and only twice when it was relatively serious (1. a left hand bend and ended up straying onto the other side of the road - thankfully nothing coming other way, and 2. right hand bend and ended up going a little bit off-road, but managed to stay on the bike and get back on the road)
On braking: grabbing a handful is clearly a bad thing, but I'm not sure the front brake is always bad per se.
An advanced instructor taught me trail braking as a technique for dealing with an entry that you know is going to be too hot, as a way of getting a bit more speed off as you go into the bend.
You can't over use it, or you'll run out of grip as you start to tip the bike in, but it would seem like a useful technique for shedding a few mph at the start of the turn.
I'd agree there is risk with this technique....and I'm NOT advocating grabbing a handful of front when you're already deep into the bend!!
An advanced instructor taught me trail braking as a technique for dealing with an entry that you know is going to be too hot, as a way of getting a bit more speed off as you go into the bend.
You can't over use it, or you'll run out of grip as you start to tip the bike in, but it would seem like a useful technique for shedding a few mph at the start of the turn.
I'd agree there is risk with this technique....and I'm NOT advocating grabbing a handful of front when you're already deep into the bend!!
I think the difference between yourself (and the rest of us) and Casey Stoner in a MotoGP is that you riding on the road will be nowhere near the limit, and will not know, or feel confident in where the limits are. I would imagine Casey Stoner has a pretty good idea what his bike can and cannot do.
monthefish said:
You know the one, You've entered a corner waaaaay too hot, not realising it tightens and you are going too quick to make it round (or at least you believe you are).
Do you lean over a bit further? (i.e. more than you thought you/your bike was capable of?)
It was reasuring to see Stoner in a similar (not identical) situation at the Laguna GP when he made that mistake (by his own admission) and had to avoid Rossi and ended up going into the kitty litter. Could he have cornered harder, and stayed on the track?
So, in principal, what is the best way to deal with this situation?
Do you lean over a bit further? (i.e. more than you thought you/your bike was capable of?)
It was reasuring to see Stoner in a similar (not identical) situation at the Laguna GP when he made that mistake (by his own admission) and had to avoid Rossi and ended up going into the kitty litter. Could he have cornered harder, and stayed on the track?
So, in principal, what is the best way to deal with this situation?
Exige46 said:
I think the difference between yourself (and the rest of us) and Casey Stoner in a MotoGP is that you riding on the road will be nowhere near the limit, and will not know, or feel confident in where the limits are. I would imagine Casey Stoner has a pretty good idea what his bike can and cannot do.
Absolutely, which is why I was wondering:monthefish said:
Just been looking at the footage of Stoners incident. Any idea why he didn't lean a bit more at 0:34?
He's not exactly on/near the limit at 0:34, and shirley he knows that keeping the bike on the track would be a far better than entering the gravel?711 said:
On braking: grabbing a handful is clearly a bad thing, but I'm not sure the front brake is always bad per se.
An advanced instructor taught me trail braking as a technique for dealing with an entry that you know is going to be too hot, as a way of getting a bit more speed off as you go into the bend.
You can't over use it, or you'll run out of grip as you start to tip the bike in, but it would seem like a useful technique for shedding a few mph at the start of the turn.
I'd agree there is risk with this technique....and I'm NOT advocating grabbing a handful of front when you're already deep into the bend!!
This is a technique you can use as you come into the corner but the original post said ….An advanced instructor taught me trail braking as a technique for dealing with an entry that you know is going to be too hot, as a way of getting a bit more speed off as you go into the bend.
You can't over use it, or you'll run out of grip as you start to tip the bike in, but it would seem like a useful technique for shedding a few mph at the start of the turn.
I'd agree there is risk with this technique....and I'm NOT advocating grabbing a handful of front when you're already deep into the bend!!
original post said:
… You've entered a corner waaaaay too hot ….
You’re already in the corner and by then, it’s too late to touch the brakes.I think the reason casey didn't lean more is probably because he was on whats called the marbles which is where all the bits of crap are because no one ever rides there to move them out the way.
On most corners I drag a bit of front brake so I know what happens. The main thing you notice is how heavy the steering goes.
On most corners I drag a bit of front brake so I know what happens. The main thing you notice is how heavy the steering goes.
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