Discussion
It could be a multitude of things but even a well worn CBR600 should be able to get to the edges of the rear tyres with relative ease. It sounds like you were riding quicker than you were comfortable with.
Were you hurrying your braking and not changing down? Were you cornering in too high a gear or with a trailing throttle? If so, the bike will feel very unstable. You need to be in the right gear before the corner and be on enough throttle to at least maintain your speed.
If you have to rush things then you're going too fast (for yourself).
[And some of those pesky sports cars do require a lot of road to overtake - like modded Nobles and VX220s]
Were you hurrying your braking and not changing down? Were you cornering in too high a gear or with a trailing throttle? If so, the bike will feel very unstable. You need to be in the right gear before the corner and be on enough throttle to at least maintain your speed.
If you have to rush things then you're going too fast (for yourself).
[And some of those pesky sports cars do require a lot of road to overtake - like modded Nobles and VX220s]
Did it feel like it was trying to make figure of 8's on the suspension ? My old tourer does that, combination of touring tyres, knackered suspension with too little damping and a heavy bike.
Not sure I'd want to be riding that fast on a bike that old/mileage that hadn't had at least a suspension overhaul and good tyres/brakes. Try the same thing on a modern year old sports 600 and you'll be amazed at the difference !
Not sure I'd want to be riding that fast on a bike that old/mileage that hadn't had at least a suspension overhaul and good tyres/brakes. Try the same thing on a modern year old sports 600 and you'll be amazed at the difference !
Maybe try going in slower and winding on the power and coming out faster - it's better to look back on a corner and think you could have gone faster, than to look out of the hedge and wish you'd gone slower 
I personally find that method easier - if you go in fast you have to really sling the bike on its side, whereas you can do it at a much more moderate rate if you go in slower, and just crank it further over as you accelerate through the corner.
P.s. I'd be careful if you have only 1cm on the front but 2cm on the rear - that sounds a bit iffy - your front will go before your rear...normally I see this the other way round (and this is the case on my '02 CBR600F)...
I personally find that method easier - if you go in fast you have to really sling the bike on its side, whereas you can do it at a much more moderate rate if you go in slower, and just crank it further over as you accelerate through the corner.
P.s. I'd be careful if you have only 1cm on the front but 2cm on the rear - that sounds a bit iffy - your front will go before your rear...normally I see this the other way round (and this is the case on my '02 CBR600F)...
Right - now I've calmed down a bit
Basically the S2000 bombed off and that kicked off the competitive instinct - but I was also intellectually wanting to practice cornering 'properly' having read up on lines, countersteering, weight transfer etc. I've got a fair amount of experience driving cars quickly but bike experience was limited to a year with a Ducati Monster that I never cornered hard, and 4 years commuting on a sequence of Gilera 180 two-stroke scooters that I tuned up (and then got stolen) - I pushed those things well onto their (low) limits round bends but gave up once the thieving pikeys beat my resolve (after 3 bikes stolen, I simply couldn't afford to keep buying them bikes).
What I *wasn't* doing was riding like a nutter - i.e. not thinking about what I was doing, just max throttle everywhere and scaring myself round every bend - at no point did I scare myself. In fact, because the whole point of riding that road was to practice (and hopefully improve) my cornering, having someone going faster than me to follow was an opportunity to push it a bit and learn more. I expected any sports 600 to be able to keep up with an S2000, certainly I could only compete with bikes in machines like modded VXTs and the Noble.
On each corner I was planning, positioning, and thinking about what I was meant to be doing - yes it was enormously exciting (as the schoolboy babble yesterday indicated) but I was NOT brain-out racing. As the car pulled away through the corners I didn't try to match his entry speed (or I would have stacked) - I just tried to push that little bit harder than last time, to go in a bit faster, to hold on to a lower gear and not keep in my 'comfort zone' of 3-8k revs, to lean the bike more (no hanging off antics, I wanted to feel what the bike would do, not confuse matters by shifting my weight around, not that there's much weight of me! ), and to feel the difference between powering through the bend, cornering on a neutral throttle and the odd 'oops' cornering off the throttle.
As a result I reckon I learnt a LOT about how the bike behaves, it doesn't like going into bends off the throttle or changing throttle position mid-corner, it feels best slow-in, fast-out (as mentioned above), and surprisingly the bike now feels a bit more 'flickable' - using countersteer deliberately (rather than subconsciously, like I was riding before) the S-bends were a lot easier and the bike clearly has a lot more ability than me.
Yes, I was a little bit out of my comfort zone but that's the only way to learn, I guess
The weaving occurred a couple of times on the A264 (where the impromptu chase took place). After the excitement had worn down a bit, having had to bumble through Langton Green, Tunbridge Wells, then filter through an enormous traffic jam in Southborough and head home, I had a think about it, and tried River Hill with a cool head, going in at a reasonable pace and accelerating through the bend. The squirming happened again, more or less in the middle of the bend. I was smoothly applying power from just before that point - this was with a cool (ish) head, nobody to chase, just me, *thinking* and trying to analyze what was going on. I wasn't going particularly fast, I was reasonably sure that I wasn't going to fall off, and I know that bend and its surface changes, camber and tightening line very well. Unlike the bit on the A264 where I was probably trying a bit too hard, this was a lot more controlled.
Now from comments about 'chicken strips' and people getting their knees on the ground, etc., I presume that the CBR600 should be able to lean over to the edges of the tyres safely, but I'm assuming that once the bike feels squirmy and weavy, that's the limit and I shouldn't push any harder, right? Looking at the tyres after the ride, it's clear that I *hadn't* gone to the edges of the tyres. Am I right in assuming that once the bike feels loose that you *don't* push harder, or if I was a better rider could I carry more lean angle without getting the squirm?
Surfsofa - cheers for the link, just what I was looking for. Will read through all their tips and advice and look into booking a day.
Gareth H - California superbike school sounds like fun but the price is out of my league, and I'd expect you'd need to already be comfortable with a bike on track before bimbling around like an idiot
Much as it sounds like great tuition, I can't justify the cost and I'm primarily looking to enjoy my bike on the road.
As I said earlier, the bends on the A264 can be enjoyed well below the speed limit, I'm not bothered about high speed, just the bends Track riding is a different kettle of fish to road riding, surely? Equally I'm not looking to push my bike to the limits on every corner on the road, as you're so much more vulnerable on a bike that one mistake can kill or permanently disable you. I was just wondering whether the squirm I felt was me getting near the limits of the bike (due to its age and amount of wear in the suspension) or whether it was simply because I still class myself as a beginner and my skills are not up to scratch (which I freely admit, even though I have good balance, and good skill on road and track in a car). I always over-analyse everything - perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I'm a perfectionist and having found that biking is bloody good fun, I want to be safe!!!
Basically the S2000 bombed off and that kicked off the competitive instinct - but I was also intellectually wanting to practice cornering 'properly' having read up on lines, countersteering, weight transfer etc. I've got a fair amount of experience driving cars quickly but bike experience was limited to a year with a Ducati Monster that I never cornered hard, and 4 years commuting on a sequence of Gilera 180 two-stroke scooters that I tuned up (and then got stolen) - I pushed those things well onto their (low) limits round bends but gave up once the thieving pikeys beat my resolve (after 3 bikes stolen, I simply couldn't afford to keep buying them bikes).
What I *wasn't* doing was riding like a nutter - i.e. not thinking about what I was doing, just max throttle everywhere and scaring myself round every bend - at no point did I scare myself. In fact, because the whole point of riding that road was to practice (and hopefully improve) my cornering, having someone going faster than me to follow was an opportunity to push it a bit and learn more. I expected any sports 600 to be able to keep up with an S2000, certainly I could only compete with bikes in machines like modded VXTs and the Noble.
On each corner I was planning, positioning, and thinking about what I was meant to be doing - yes it was enormously exciting (as the schoolboy babble yesterday indicated) but I was NOT brain-out racing. As the car pulled away through the corners I didn't try to match his entry speed (or I would have stacked) - I just tried to push that little bit harder than last time, to go in a bit faster, to hold on to a lower gear and not keep in my 'comfort zone' of 3-8k revs, to lean the bike more (no hanging off antics, I wanted to feel what the bike would do, not confuse matters by shifting my weight around, not that there's much weight of me!
), and to feel the difference between powering through the bend, cornering on a neutral throttle and the odd 'oops' cornering off the throttle.As a result I reckon I learnt a LOT about how the bike behaves, it doesn't like going into bends off the throttle or changing throttle position mid-corner, it feels best slow-in, fast-out (as mentioned above), and surprisingly the bike now feels a bit more 'flickable' - using countersteer deliberately (rather than subconsciously, like I was riding before) the S-bends were a lot easier and the bike clearly has a lot more ability than me.
Yes, I was a little bit out of my comfort zone but that's the only way to learn, I guess
The weaving occurred a couple of times on the A264 (where the impromptu chase took place). After the excitement had worn down a bit, having had to bumble through Langton Green, Tunbridge Wells, then filter through an enormous traffic jam in Southborough and head home, I had a think about it, and tried River Hill with a cool head, going in at a reasonable pace and accelerating through the bend. The squirming happened again, more or less in the middle of the bend. I was smoothly applying power from just before that point - this was with a cool (ish) head, nobody to chase, just me, *thinking* and trying to analyze what was going on. I wasn't going particularly fast, I was reasonably sure that I wasn't going to fall off, and I know that bend and its surface changes, camber and tightening line very well. Unlike the bit on the A264 where I was probably trying a bit too hard, this was a lot more controlled.
Now from comments about 'chicken strips' and people getting their knees on the ground, etc., I presume that the CBR600 should be able to lean over to the edges of the tyres safely, but I'm assuming that once the bike feels squirmy and weavy, that's the limit and I shouldn't push any harder, right? Looking at the tyres after the ride, it's clear that I *hadn't* gone to the edges of the tyres. Am I right in assuming that once the bike feels loose that you *don't* push harder, or if I was a better rider could I carry more lean angle without getting the squirm?
Surfsofa - cheers for the link, just what I was looking for. Will read through all their tips and advice and look into booking a day.
Gareth H - California superbike school sounds like fun but the price is out of my league, and I'd expect you'd need to already be comfortable with a bike on track before bimbling around like an idiot
Much as it sounds like great tuition, I can't justify the cost and I'm primarily looking to enjoy my bike on the road.As I said earlier, the bends on the A264 can be enjoyed well below the speed limit, I'm not bothered about high speed, just the bends
Track riding is a different kettle of fish to road riding, surely? Equally I'm not looking to push my bike to the limits on every corner on the road, as you're so much more vulnerable on a bike that one mistake can kill or permanently disable you. I was just wondering whether the squirm I felt was me getting near the limits of the bike (due to its age and amount of wear in the suspension) or whether it was simply because I still class myself as a beginner and my skills are not up to scratch (which I freely admit, even though I have good balance, and good skill on road and track in a car). I always over-analyse everything - perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I'm a perfectionist and having found that biking is bloody good fun, I want to be safe!!!Does sound like suspension. Could be old and tired or could just need setting up for your weight, this is a usefull guide to getting it more or less right.
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
RizzoTheRat said:
Does sound like suspension. Could be old and tired or could just need setting up for your weight, this is a usefull guide to getting it more or less right.
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
Cheers - given that I basically bought the bike from the shop and have ridden it without adjusting anything, it could have random suspension settings for all I know. Learning all the time!!! http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
Well it sounds like you had the right approach, but I would check out the squirming before pushing it any more - apart from the psychological effect, it could actually be something that would be a problem if you pushed it harder. Maybe take it to a garage or suspension specialist to take a look/set up?
The main difference between cars and bikes is on a bike you can't say 'oops' if you mess it up and go in too fast, it tends to moderate the riding in most of us a bit...
I'd say do the basics, so check for wear in the appropriate places mentioned above, check tyres pressures, etc. But almost certainly worn suspension, front and rear. A mate of mine had a 20k mile Hornet until recently and had the same sensation - rear suspension was knackered.
Finally, I'd suggest going to your local Honda dealer and borrow a new CBR for an hour or two (pretending you're interested in an end of season bargain), and find out if it is worn suspension or riding style causing it. It is possible that its weight transfer causing the problem (on and off brakes too abruptly, moving round on bike, etc, etc, but given that its done 60k miles, I'd be surprised if its not a suspension issue.
I'd say do the basics, so check for wear in the appropriate places mentioned above, check tyres pressures, etc. But almost certainly worn suspension, front and rear. A mate of mine had a 20k mile Hornet until recently and had the same sensation - rear suspension was knackered.
Finally, I'd suggest going to your local Honda dealer and borrow a new CBR for an hour or two (pretending you're interested in an end of season bargain), and find out if it is worn suspension or riding style causing it. It is possible that its weight transfer causing the problem (on and off brakes too abruptly, moving round on bike, etc, etc, but given that its done 60k miles, I'd be surprised if its not a suspension issue.
outlaw biker said:
Cyberface, you're going to end up dead in a short space of time. On an ageing bike, with limited riding experience racing against well driven sportscars on twisty roads? Ummm....seriously, not very bright!
OK, then I've got two choices haven't I - go back to well driven sportcars (which cost more to run and insure, and only give you that *extreme* rush at silly speeds), or actually try to get good at this biking lark that doesn't involve me ending 'up dead in a short space of time'.I can't remember the last time *anyone* has called me 'not very bright' and whilst this isn't meant arrogantly, I do actually think and analyse everything I do...
Part of me is saying 'sod it, get a new CBR600 and eliminate all the potential maintenance factors that could be causing odd behaviour'. But I don't know if this behaviour is normal or abnormal - it just feels odd.
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
Yes I'm a weirdo, but that blast when I was positively controlling the bike (rather than gently coaxing it around) - I felt the least likely to fall off since I bought it.
Sounds to me that you want to explore the limits of your bike and your own riding skill. IMO the best place to do this is the track, as mentioned the CSS is recommended by many people but if you don't wanna do that, do a regular track day with a good company like no limits. They have lots of instructors on hand to give you pointers and you can build up gradually, lap by lap with a good road surface. What you explained could be down to the particular road surface you were riding on?
If the worst happens and you come off on the track, there's run off so you don't go hurtling into a tree / sign post etc. And they have paramedics / first aiders on site. Riding fast on the roads is very dangerous especially round corners. Next time you're doing this think what if there's a giant horse turd in the road / much from a tractor / diesel spill from a lorry etc / a deer in the road....etc you get it. ride safe and have fun
If the worst happens and you come off on the track, there's run off so you don't go hurtling into a tree / sign post etc. And they have paramedics / first aiders on site. Riding fast on the roads is very dangerous especially round corners. Next time you're doing this think what if there's a giant horse turd in the road / much from a tractor / diesel spill from a lorry etc / a deer in the road....etc you get it. ride safe and have fun
cyberface said:
outlaw biker said:
Cyberface, you're going to end up dead in a short space of time. On an ageing bike, with limited riding experience racing against well driven sportscars on twisty roads? Ummm....seriously, not very bright!
OK, then I've got two choices haven't I - go back to well driven sportcars (which cost more to run and insure, and only give you that *extreme* rush at silly speeds), or actually try to get good at this biking lark that doesn't involve me ending 'up dead in a short space of time'.I can't remember the last time *anyone* has called me 'not very bright' and whilst this isn't meant arrogantly, I do actually think and analyse everything I do...
Part of me is saying 'sod it, get a new CBR600 and eliminate all the potential maintenance factors that could be causing odd behaviour'. But I don't know if this behaviour is normal or abnormal - it just feels odd.
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
Yes I'm a weirdo, but that blast when I was positively controlling the bike (rather than gently coaxing it around) - I felt the least likely to fall off since I bought it.
cyberface said:
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
That's a fair viewpoint.It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
What you should do is try this theory out at a TD in relative safety.
Biker's Nemesis said:
cyberface said:
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
That's a fair viewpoint.It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
What you should do is try this theory out at a TD in relative safety.
I have a feeling I'll pick up techniques on track that I'd have to forget for road, since I've come a cropper before taking racing lines on the road for visibility. But every bit of training helps. I'll definitely do the BikeSafe day first as it's cheap and run by full-on professionals.
cyberface said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
cyberface said:
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
That's a fair viewpoint.It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
What you should do is try this theory out at a TD in relative safety.
I have a feeling I'll pick up techniques on track that I'd have to forget for road, since I've come a cropper before taking racing lines on the road for visibility. But every bit of training helps. I'll definitely do the BikeSafe day first as it's cheap and run by full-on professionals.
As others have said, training such as CSS is the way to go to help improve your cornering skills which will go a long way. I'm planning to go to Laguna Seca next year to do CSS (combining a holiday to San Francisco). Learn at your own pace and don't be goaded into a race as an off on most roads you'll most certainly come a cropper. You know if you were playing footie and someone takes a massive kick on your shin and remember how painful it can be...imagine you're smacking that same area (or anywhere of your body) against a lampost at 70+ leptons it's gonna be 1000 times worse..
Driver / rider training is very valuable and can save you from getting into a potential sticky situation in the first place. When I owned an Elise, I did a Lotus Driver Training and spent a whole day with one of their test drivers and it was the best £500 I ever spent in my life and helped my driving no end. At the end of the day, no one ever stops learning as there are things you can improve all the time
Driver / rider training is very valuable and can save you from getting into a potential sticky situation in the first place. When I owned an Elise, I did a Lotus Driver Training and spent a whole day with one of their test drivers and it was the best £500 I ever spent in my life and helped my driving no end. At the end of the day, no one ever stops learning as there are things you can improve all the time
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