LPG Chimaera (Follow My Conversion)
Discussion
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
The elephant in the room is government taxation policy, which is something nobody can control (not even as voters, if we're honest). It wasn't so very long ago that diesel was cheaper than petrol; I hope you reach payback before the chancellor scuppers your plans.
That argument has been touted as a reason not to convert for years & years.If people converting hadn't chosen to ignore it back then, the facts are they would have missed out thousands of ponds in fuel savings.
I don't want to miss my future savings either.
I choose to let history be our best guide, & the fact is the percentage price difference between petrol & LPG has remained the same for well over 10 years.
The truth is the Uk are in a domestic energy crisis right now & it's not getting any better, the gas we use to heat our houses comes from Russia & the Russians know we can't live with out it.
So while they continue to have huge reserves of natural gas they keep pushing the price up because they've got us firmly over a barrel.
So how does all this affect the price of liquid petroleum gas?
Well the government is responding to being held to ransome by Russia by looking for new ways to harvest our own natural gas reserves.
Fracking licences have just been granted & the first attempts at this controversial gas extraction process have already sucessfully taken place just outside Liverpool.
The technology comes from the USA where they have a clear target to become 100% energy self sufficient in just a few years.
This is a replacement to their traditional policy of walking into oil rich countries to steal oil, which has just become too costly to sustain.
Since the fracking started the US natural gas production has rocketed, soon the Yanks will have more natural gas than they know what to do with.
We've been watching all this and copying it because all the geology reports suggest the UK has huge gas reserves just waiting to be tapped, just like our American cousins we will be a wash with our own domestic supply of cheap natural gas in 10 years time or less.
Converting my LPG TVR to compressed natural gas is no more complicated than a 10 minute tweak of the vaporiser.
So you see, history tells us LPG stays at the same price differential to petrol, & the future tells us cheap CNG is on the way.
Consequently even though I still don't have a crystal ball, I remain quietly confident we'll actually be seeing a lot more gas powered vehicles on the UK roads in the next few years.
Elephant in the room, EVICTED!!!
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 3rd March 09:34
Podie said:
I seem to recall LPG has benefits - quieter engine noise, increase octane, no acids or carbon deposits and improved combustion.
Correct 
On the engine noise point, people typically are referring to the smoother idle you get with LPG.
Engine noise actually remains the same it's just you get a smoother idle so it sounds sweeter on LPG.
Open the taps & on LPG it's still traditional full fat TVR sound effects all the way
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 3rd March 10:46
Got my first LPG vehicle seven years ago. Common sense predicted an increase in numbers of LPG vehicles, like in the Netherlands, but here it hasn't happened.
Not enough manufacturers make them as a new option, after market complete installs cost 1700 to 3000 quid, and diesel is a viable alternative re fuel economy with many cars. (Audi A8 - I run a 3.0 TDI and get 38 mpg. Petrol versions give low 20s. I agree TDI is not quite as quick, but with 235 bhp and masses of torque it is a really nice drive and good overtaker on most roads)
I did have extra maintenance issues with the LPG system, my Ford Explorer was a pig to service because the LPG clobber under the bonnet restricted access, particularly to the plugs.....five hours to change six plugs. And with most aftermarket installations you end up with nowhere to put to spare wheel. I realise that nowadays you get an RAC card where the spare wheel used to be. Also, with no momentum from the DfT to promote LPG, the gas filling points have not increased in number and can be a pig to find.
My son in law now has a 2004 Volvo XC 90 2.9T6 on LPG and is loving it. The 2004 D5 is so sluggish, the T6 goes and the LPG system gives him cheaper motoring. He has found two LPG stations near him, but both fill very very slowly and with a 55 litre donut tank he is a regular visitor to the pump.
Not enough manufacturers make them as a new option, after market complete installs cost 1700 to 3000 quid, and diesel is a viable alternative re fuel economy with many cars. (Audi A8 - I run a 3.0 TDI and get 38 mpg. Petrol versions give low 20s. I agree TDI is not quite as quick, but with 235 bhp and masses of torque it is a really nice drive and good overtaker on most roads)
I did have extra maintenance issues with the LPG system, my Ford Explorer was a pig to service because the LPG clobber under the bonnet restricted access, particularly to the plugs.....five hours to change six plugs. And with most aftermarket installations you end up with nowhere to put to spare wheel. I realise that nowadays you get an RAC card where the spare wheel used to be. Also, with no momentum from the DfT to promote LPG, the gas filling points have not increased in number and can be a pig to find.
My son in law now has a 2004 Volvo XC 90 2.9T6 on LPG and is loving it. The 2004 D5 is so sluggish, the T6 goes and the LPG system gives him cheaper motoring. He has found two LPG stations near him, but both fill very very slowly and with a 55 litre donut tank he is a regular visitor to the pump.
Podie said:
ChimpOnGas said:
Podie said:
I seem to recall LPG has benefits - quieter engine noise, increase octane, no acids or carbon deposits and improved combustion.
Correct Graphs will be posted, so until then I encourage you to place your bets folks.
To help, I'll try to give you an idea of the spec.
Firstly its important to stress the car is a 4.0 litre, with no head work whatsoever.
Both fuel types are independently controlled with the Canems system, ignition on both fuels is also independently & fully mapped 3D wasted spark.
The cam is a fresh Stealth profile from V8 Developments, this is accompanied by new followers and JP timing gear set & a lightened flywheel all from Rob Robertson.
All cats have been removed & an ACT flowed Y-Piece is in place, 250cc twin port pintel injectors replace the Lucas disc type originals.
An SC-Power plenum spacer helps lift the plenum just high enough to tuck the LPG injectors under the throttle body, it also keeps the mouths of the velocity stacks clear of the plenum roof and increases it's volume slightly too.
A full ACT induction kit is used including a K&N filter.
The Canems also allows for the deletion of the Air Flow Meter in favour of a free flowing large bore pipe, but remember its still on the standard throttle body & the wheezy restrictive 4.0 HC cylinder heads.
I'll start the bidding at:
Petrol: 245hp
LPG: 243hp
Place you predictions here, or tune in early next week for the true confirmed results.
SILICONEKID350HP said:
No problems MOT time with LPG ,the car will go through the emissions no problem .
For any tree huggers that may be out there (& I very much doubt there are many):Overall LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel.
- 63% less Carbon Monoxide
- 40% less Hydrocarbons than petrol and 70% less than diesel
- 50% less particulates than petrol and 98% less than diesel
- 40% less oxides of nitrogen than petrol & 50% less than diesel
- 87% less ozone than petrol
But it's nice to know I'll be ready to counter the challenges from any dolphin lovers I may be unlucky enough to meet when I'm out there ripping up the streets in "Ol Gasbag"
It takes over 120 LPG cars to equal the fine particles produced by one equivalent diesel car!!
It's a pocket friendly
dippy gas bag TVR with no loss in performance, character or sound.What's not to like
Pity the Goverment did not keep to there promise by keeping tax off LPG ! Its still gone up from 50p to over 80p in three years and two thirds of that is tax .
I thought the objective was to lower emissions
How do you compress Natural Gas ? Does it have the same calorific value as LPG or would it need a different fuel map ?
I thought the objective was to lower emissions
How do you compress Natural Gas ? Does it have the same calorific value as LPG or would it need a different fuel map ?
Edited by SILICONEKID350HP on Sunday 3rd March 15:46
SILICONEKID350HP said:
We don`t have any or very little natural gas left because the Yanks who built the oil rigs and supplied the technology sold it has part of the deal while Norway kept on to there`s .
The Government at the time promised the UK we would have cheap oil /gas but they were full of bull
t. ,it did not stop them useing Tax payers money to part fund the project .
Not true Daz, that was back in the day when we were extracting from under the sea bed.The Government at the time promised the UK we would have cheap oil /gas but they were full of bull
t. ,it did not stop them useing Tax payers money to part fund the project .Gas extraction technology has moved on immeasurably, fracking has allowed us to look at huge reserves of natural gas trapped in bed rock hitherto thought to be completely inaccessible.
And this time were in charge of it.
Soon we'll be saying..
"Those thieving Rusky gas man can go do one"
I dont do enough miles in my 500 to make a gas conversion pay! but on the plus side it does have benefits if you have it as a daily driver ! petrol super is £1.45 a litre and gas is 70p ish a ltr ! so 20 mpg is worth 40mpg ! I use an mot bay in sudbury and they do good quality lpg conversions not the rubish what the polish slap on !they do from ka`s to V8 audi`s supercharged range rovers ect ect done properly it is great ! no power loss ! i guess there are some people say it shouldn`t be done to a tvr ! same as changing wheels !suspension !light conversions !its all up to the indivdual prefrence i guess cant please every one ! i did mention the flash lube system but hey looks like you have researched and got every thing covered ! so good luck hope all goes to plan !
pk500 said:
I dont do enough miles in my 500 to make a gas conversion pay! but on the plus side it does have benefits if you have it as a daily driver ! petrol super is £1.45 a litre and gas is 70p ish a ltr ! so 20 mpg is worth 40mpg ! I use an mot bay in sudbury and they do good quality lpg conversions not the rubish what the polish slap on !they do from ka`s to V8 audi`s supercharged range rovers ect ect done properly it is great ! no power loss ! i guess there are some people say it shouldn`t be done to a tvr ! same as changing wheels !suspension !light conversions !its all up to the indivdual prefrence i guess cant please every one ! i did mention the flash lube system but hey looks like you have researched and got every thing covered ! so good luck hope all goes to plan !
Thanks Paul, you're right you'll need to do the miles to make financial sense of any LPG conversion.So if all the downsides can be eliminated the only real argument against it that holds water is the one that says:
"I do too few miles for an LPG conversion to make financial sense"
Horses for courses and all that....
But I wouldn't mind betting there are quite a few TVR owners following this who are now at least considering something similar.
At the end of the day if the thing that most makes you smile about owning a TVR is driving it, then an LPG conversion can definitely help make driving it less financially painful.
You could in fact boil all this down to one simple equation:
More TVR miles
= More TVR smiles Well that's the way I see it
I got 2 little cheap to run cars for every day which then free`s up some
tokens to be able to take one of the TVR`s out for a blast from time to time so good luck to you and hope you enjoy the cheaper to run chim !
tokens to be able to take one of the TVR`s out for a blast from time to time so good luck to you and hope you enjoy the cheaper to run chim !ChimpOnGas said:
Thanks Paul, you're right you'll need to do the miles to make financial sense of any LPG conversion.
So if all the downsides can be eliminated the only real argument against it that holds water is the one that says:
"I do too few miles for an LPG conversion to make financial sense"
Horses for courses and all that....
But I wouldn't mind betting there are quite a few TVR owners following this who are now at least considering something similar.
At the end of the day if the thing that most makes you smile about owning a TVR is driving it, then an LPG conversion can definitely help make driving it less financially painful.
You could in fact boil all this down to one simple equation:
More TVR miles = More TVR smiles
Well that's the way I see it
So if all the downsides can be eliminated the only real argument against it that holds water is the one that says:
"I do too few miles for an LPG conversion to make financial sense"
Horses for courses and all that....
But I wouldn't mind betting there are quite a few TVR owners following this who are now at least considering something similar.
At the end of the day if the thing that most makes you smile about owning a TVR is driving it, then an LPG conversion can definitely help make driving it less financially painful.
You could in fact boil all this down to one simple equation:
More TVR miles
= More TVR smiles Well that's the way I see it
Intersted to see this coming along Dave, clearly you've taken a lot of care to plan it out.And I like the stealth approach - although of course about a million people will know thanks to your posting on here.
+1 to the cleaner running comment. My daily smoker is an XJ6 which I had converted to LPG about 8 years ago and since then covered about 120k miles in it. The oil comes out at each service still clear and yellow - a benefit of the clean burn and less petrol wash down.
One thing to keep an eye open on is the hotter burn - I started to see exhaust valve seat recession (perhaps not a huge surprise on an engine with big mileage) and added an oiler kit to provide a bit of relief.
Keep the posts coming.
Eric
+1 to the cleaner running comment. My daily smoker is an XJ6 which I had converted to LPG about 8 years ago and since then covered about 120k miles in it. The oil comes out at each service still clear and yellow - a benefit of the clean burn and less petrol wash down.
One thing to keep an eye open on is the hotter burn - I started to see exhaust valve seat recession (perhaps not a huge surprise on an engine with big mileage) and added an oiler kit to provide a bit of relief.
Keep the posts coming.
Eric
ChimpOnGas said:
Following the LPG mapping process, comparison runs of both fuels will happen towards the end of the week.
Graphs will be posted, so until then I encourage you to place your bets folks.
This is something I've always wanted to see - a comparison of power/torque graphs from the same engine on petrol and with a decent LPG install.Graphs will be posted, so until then I encourage you to place your bets folks.
Who's doing the mapping? Mainly I ask as I've spoken to a number of people about the ignition advance required for LPG compared to petrol. Some installers just add a fixed advance, say 5 or 10 degrees above petrol across the rev range; others have said 3 degrees at idle going up to 7deg at WOT. White papers and other research I've seen recommend that a higher advance is required at idle and that in fact a spark retard is required at higher revs compared to petrol. So seems to me that no one really knows. But with your 3D spark map, you can do whatever is best.
I would think a competent mapper would use a dyno and dial in the required amount at each rev bin. But would take quite a bit of rolling road time to get right.
If you have access to your spark maps once finished, I'd love to see a comparison or at least know the principle used - especially if you end up with a good result.
ChimpOnGas said:
Elephant in the room, EVICTED!!!
Not really. I can still see him, even if you choose not to. Essentially, your argument is that LPG has always been cheap therefore it will remain cheap, and that fracking will give the UK a cheap source of gas.
The first part of your argument is simply flawed logic. Twenty years ago, diesel was cheap and always had been up to then, so you could have said the same thing about that. But it didn't stay cheap. When diesel started becoming more popular and more widely available, the chancellor (I forget which one) started ramping up the tax on diesel, and within a few short years the cost benefit of buying a diesel car was much more marginal than it had been previously.
The second part of your argument is simply irrelevant. Taxation has never been based on supply; it has always been based on demand, usage, and how much money the chancellor thinks he can screw out of us without the political damage being too great. If (and it's still a big "if") the UK ends up with a cheap source of gas, that will not at all prevent the chancellor slapping a nice juicy tax on it.
Popularity of LPG is your enemy. The very last thing you want is for too many people to follow your lead and convert to LPG, making it a bigger part of the road fuel market. This will have two effects, both of which are bad for anyone who has converted to LPG: firstly, LPG will become a bigger source of potential tax revenue and sooner or later it will become worthwhile to increase the tax on it; secondly, the people who have converted will be buying a lot less petrol (and paying a lot less tax), so the chancellor will need to find his revenue elsewhere - and LPG is the obvious candidate.
The reason LPG has been cheap is because nobody has been using it. Chancellors have decided that the udders of the LPG cash-cow are not yet ready for milking. But the signs are clear that LPG's popularity is dramatically increasing. Just a couple of years ago you'd have struggled to find a petrol station with LPG, but now it's beginning to become commonplace. Exactly the same happened with diesel: early adopters used to have to find a petrol station that served trucks and fill up round the back with them.
I predict that LPG is close to its tipping point and might become a mainstream fuel in the next couple of years. There will be a bonanza and people will start flocking to it, but very soon the chancellor will begin the ramping-up of fuel duty. He can't afford to leave it too long, because increasing the tax after LPG has become hugely popular would be electoral suicide. I anticipate that future chancellors (possibly even this one!) will raise the LPG tax rate to the point where you'll need to be doing higher-than-average mileage to see any benefit, just as past chancellors did with diesel - and the problem is that most TVR owners do lower-than-average mileage in their TVRs.
The one thing that might rescue LPG from the same fate as diesel is the fact that car manufacturers are not producing LPG-ready cars, and probably never will do because their focus is now on electric and/or hybrid cars and small, heavily turbo-charged engines. This will probably limit the popularity that LPG will reach, because most people aren't interested in what they perceive as a complex and expensive conversion.
I applaud what you've done and your generosity in sharing the story; it looks very nicely engineered and I genuinely hope you do get the payback on it. But you'd better hope that LPG never becomes too popular.
Oh, and there's a budget coming up. Are you nervous? You should be!
Got to say I agree with the above I remember in the very early 80's when Diesel was around a 3rd the price of petrol as my mate's father run a Peugeot 1975 504 2.1 Diesel 
not putting a downer on your project Dave as I think its great 
but the government could not give a monkey's on how clean your fuel burns but they do care about duty on fuel lots 
if we all keep this in mind things make perfect sense fuel tax wise 
I remember in the very early 80's when Diesel was around a 3rd the price of petrol as my mate's father run a Peugeot 1975 504 2.1 Diesel not putting a downer on your project Dave as I think its great but the government could not give a monkey's on how clean your fuel burns but they do care about duty on fuel lots if we all keep this in mind things make perfect sense fuel tax wise Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Not really. I can still see him, even if you choose not to.
Essentially, your argument is that LPG has always been cheap therefore it will remain cheap, and that fracking will give the UK a cheap source of gas.
The first part of your argument is simply flawed logic. Twenty years ago, diesel was cheap and always had been up to then, so you could have said the same thing about that. But it didn't stay cheap. When diesel started becoming more popular and more widely available, the chancellor (I forget which one) started ramping up the tax on diesel, and within a few short years the cost benefit of buying a diesel car was much more marginal than it had been previously.
The second part of your argument is simply irrelevant. Taxation has never been based on supply; it has always been based on demand, usage, and how much money the chancellor thinks he can screw out of us without the political damage being too great. If (and it's still a big "if") the UK ends up with a cheap source of gas, that will not at all prevent the chancellor slapping a nice juicy tax on it.
Popularity of LPG is your enemy. The very last thing you want is for too many people to follow your lead and convert to LPG, making it a bigger part of the road fuel market. This will have two effects, both of which are bad for anyone who has converted to LPG: firstly, LPG will become a bigger source of potential tax revenue and sooner or later it will become worthwhile to increase the tax on it; secondly, the people who have converted will be buying a lot less petrol (and paying a lot less tax), so the chancellor will need to find his revenue elsewhere - and LPG is the obvious candidate.
The reason LPG has been cheap is because nobody has been using it. Chancellors have decided that the udders of the LPG cash-cow are not yet ready for milking. But the signs are clear that LPG's popularity is dramatically increasing. Just a couple of years ago you'd have struggled to find a petrol station with LPG, but now it's beginning to become commonplace. Exactly the same happened with diesel: early adopters used to have to find a petrol station that served trucks and fill up round the back with them.
I predict that LPG is close to its tipping point and might become a mainstream fuel in the next couple of years. There will be a bonanza and people will start flocking to it, but very soon the chancellor will begin the ramping-up of fuel duty. He can't afford to leave it too long, because increasing the tax after LPG has become hugely popular would be electoral suicide. I anticipate that future chancellors (possibly even this one!) will raise the LPG tax rate to the point where you'll need to be doing higher-than-average mileage to see any benefit, just as past chancellors did with diesel - and the problem is that most TVR owners do lower-than-average mileage in their TVRs.
The one thing that might rescue LPG from the same fate as diesel is the fact that car manufacturers are not producing LPG-ready cars, and probably never will do because their focus is now on electric and/or hybrid cars and small, heavily turbo-charged engines. This will probably limit the popularity that LPG will reach, because most people aren't interested in what they perceive as a complex and expensive conversion.
I applaud what you've done and your generosity in sharing the story; it looks very nicely engineered and I genuinely hope you do get the payback on it. But you'd better hope that LPG never becomes too popular.
Oh, and there's a budget coming up. Are you nervous? You should be!
Sadly all spot on - especially today when the gubberment are looking down the back of the sofa for any money they can find Essentially, your argument is that LPG has always been cheap therefore it will remain cheap, and that fracking will give the UK a cheap source of gas.
The first part of your argument is simply flawed logic. Twenty years ago, diesel was cheap and always had been up to then, so you could have said the same thing about that. But it didn't stay cheap. When diesel started becoming more popular and more widely available, the chancellor (I forget which one) started ramping up the tax on diesel, and within a few short years the cost benefit of buying a diesel car was much more marginal than it had been previously.
The second part of your argument is simply irrelevant. Taxation has never been based on supply; it has always been based on demand, usage, and how much money the chancellor thinks he can screw out of us without the political damage being too great. If (and it's still a big "if") the UK ends up with a cheap source of gas, that will not at all prevent the chancellor slapping a nice juicy tax on it.
Popularity of LPG is your enemy. The very last thing you want is for too many people to follow your lead and convert to LPG, making it a bigger part of the road fuel market. This will have two effects, both of which are bad for anyone who has converted to LPG: firstly, LPG will become a bigger source of potential tax revenue and sooner or later it will become worthwhile to increase the tax on it; secondly, the people who have converted will be buying a lot less petrol (and paying a lot less tax), so the chancellor will need to find his revenue elsewhere - and LPG is the obvious candidate.
The reason LPG has been cheap is because nobody has been using it. Chancellors have decided that the udders of the LPG cash-cow are not yet ready for milking. But the signs are clear that LPG's popularity is dramatically increasing. Just a couple of years ago you'd have struggled to find a petrol station with LPG, but now it's beginning to become commonplace. Exactly the same happened with diesel: early adopters used to have to find a petrol station that served trucks and fill up round the back with them.
I predict that LPG is close to its tipping point and might become a mainstream fuel in the next couple of years. There will be a bonanza and people will start flocking to it, but very soon the chancellor will begin the ramping-up of fuel duty. He can't afford to leave it too long, because increasing the tax after LPG has become hugely popular would be electoral suicide. I anticipate that future chancellors (possibly even this one!) will raise the LPG tax rate to the point where you'll need to be doing higher-than-average mileage to see any benefit, just as past chancellors did with diesel - and the problem is that most TVR owners do lower-than-average mileage in their TVRs.
The one thing that might rescue LPG from the same fate as diesel is the fact that car manufacturers are not producing LPG-ready cars, and probably never will do because their focus is now on electric and/or hybrid cars and small, heavily turbo-charged engines. This will probably limit the popularity that LPG will reach, because most people aren't interested in what they perceive as a complex and expensive conversion.
I applaud what you've done and your generosity in sharing the story; it looks very nicely engineered and I genuinely hope you do get the payback on it. But you'd better hope that LPG never becomes too popular.
Oh, and there's a budget coming up. Are you nervous? You should be!
That said if someone wants to get it done then why not, if you want to treat your car to a few quid it makes a lot more sense than a big sound system (eg), at least you get some money back. You can also take pride in the fact you are messing up the planet less than you were by running a TVR
I suspect that for most owners though it would just end up as a simple case of economics and it is pointless discussing "savings" if you are going to disregard up front costs in the same conversation. Other factors which come into play with sportscars generally and with TVRs is that they tend change hands more often than normal cars and clock up less miles annually making it harder for the numbers to add up in the same way as normal cars.
The bottom line is if people see it as something worth doing they have the option of driving into somewhere and getting it done, I certainly wouldn't let the gubberment put me off doing it
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