LPG Chimaera (Follow My Conversion)

LPG Chimaera (Follow My Conversion)

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ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 25th February 2013
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My LPG conversion started today.

Follow the progress here as things progress.

The foundation to the conversion is the excellent Canems Dual Fuel engine management system from Lloyd Specialist Developments.




The system has more than proved itself over the last 7 months by delivering excellent improvements in performance & fuel economy on petrol.

So now it's time to explore the next trick up it's sleeve, fully mappable ignition & fuel delivery control on LPG using map 2, no second piggyback ECU needed.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 25th February 2013
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Today the EGT sensors went in.





These sensors are connected to the AEM X-Wifi wireless router under the dash that already displays AFR on my IPod Touch or any internet ready browser enabled device.

Exhaust gas temperatures on each bank will be used in addition to the Canems software displaying all the normal sensor inputs, to build the optimum performing safe LPG map.


censored

ETA

Deemed as an advert and therefore removed.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 25th February 23:28


Edited by Big Al. on Wednesday 13th March 23:55

Discopotatoes

4,101 posts

220 months

Monday 25th February 2013
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Bookmarked! thumbup

SILICONEKID350HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Monday 25th February 2013
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Why can`t you rely on the lambda sensor and why do you need two ? both banks are going to very similar.

Will the sensors change the map or is it just for Observation



Edited by SILICONEKID350HP on Monday 25th February 23:34

Discopotatoes

4,101 posts

220 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
SILICONEKID350HP said:
Why can`t you rely on the lambda sensor and why do you need two ? both banks are going to very similar.

Will the sensors change the map or is it just for Observation



Edited by SILICONEKID350HP on Monday 25th February 23:34
Its just another tuning tool Daz. Lambadas only give you AFRs and having two separates the banks, you would be surprised how much each cylinder can differ in temperature,
I use a laser thermometer to check for faults, but I can't use that on the move wink
Dave knows his onions just watch this space

kwak

210 posts

151 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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I'm going to be following this closely, very interested in how it goes.
Where are you planning to put the tank?

pjac67

2,040 posts

251 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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Nice one Dave - still surprised more of us aren't doing this.

Look forward to hearing your progress.

Regards, Paul.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
kwak said:
I'm going to be following this closely, very interested in how it goes.
Where are you planning to put the tank?
The LPG tank arrangement had to be designed around my own very challenging brief:
  • To deliver a 300 mile range on LPG
  • To offer an additional 150 mile petrol reserve
  • To ensure the roof panel can still be stored in the boot as normal
  • To retain sufficient luggage space for two people to tour mainland Europe for two weeks while still being able to stow the roof panel in the boot
  • To be completely externally invisible & indistinguishable from a standard Chimaera
After exploring many options each with their own merits & de-merits, here is my favoured arrangement that achieves all elements of the design brief with minimum compromise:




Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 26th February 08:49

Goaty Bill

1,779 posts

150 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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ChimpOnGas said:
My LPG conversion started today.
You have stopped taking your pills again rolleyes

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
Goaty Bill said:
ChimpOnGas said:
My LPG conversion started today.
You have stopped taking your pills again rolleyes
Shut it Goat Boy blah



Serious open minded followers of my conversion should also know all the LPG components have been carefully specified to accommodate the phase 2 development.





The final objectives for my 4.0 litre Chimaera being:
  • To produce 300 rear wheel horse power (375hp at the crank)
  • To deliver the cost equivalent of 45mpg at 80mph cruise
  • To retain the car's excellent reliability & drivability

But lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet wink

Look out for the next instalment from ChimpOnGas cool

Ribol

11,190 posts

257 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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ChimpOnGas said:
A much better idea than your original executive toy fuel tank arrangement and less likely to make it handle like a fat bird after Xmas thumbup

When I looked at doing the same the tank guy said it would need baffles in it to stop the fuel "slapping around" when cornering due to its proportions.

Did you decide on the LPG filler idea?

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
Ribol said:
A much better idea than your original executive toy fuel tank arrangement and less likely to make it handle like a fat bird after Xmas thumbup

When I looked at doing the same the tank guy said it would need baffles in it to stop the fuel "slapping around" when cornering due to its proportions.

Did you decide on the LPG filler idea?
Stay tuned Ribol, all will be revealed wink

While you're waiting here's an idea of how the LPG vs Petrol cost equivalents stack up.





If the compromises can be resolved, who wouldn't want their TVR to average the petrol cost equivalent of 40mpg?

All the evidence suggests LPG can turn your thirsty TVR into your daily driver with no loss of performance or practicality smile

Ribol

11,190 posts

257 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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ChimpOnGas said:
While you're waiting here's an idea of how the LPG vs Petrol cost equivalents stack up.
Anyone wanting to do a proper financial evaluation has to obviously take into account the TOTAL cost of the conversion. Saying you will break even after so many months means nothing to others here considering the drive in/out route.

When I weighed it up it worked out well, but that was with me fitting it myself, so paying someone else to do it would have taken some of the shine off it.

My filler neck solution opposite the original petrol one solved the visual issues. I also concluded the only sensible/safe tank option is as your latest version.

But the biggest hurdle for me and the final nail was losing the option of using the Eurotunnel which I have done and continue to do whenever I want to.


ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
The Eurotunnel issue troubles me not a jot, we like the ferry.

Ribol is correct however, the true economic evaluation is indeed one that includes the cost of the conversion.

But the fact is the time it takes to recover your investment will be very dependent on how many miles you do annually & the cost/specification of your conversion.

So with everyone completing different annual mileages & having different budgets for the conversion, I've chosen to start off by showing the true LPG vs Petrol cost equivalents.

Using my cost equivalent figures people interested in LPG can easily then apply their own variables to make the decision if a dual fuel conversion is right for them.

They will also need to be honest with themselves on how long they intend to hold onto their TVR.

It's certainly true to say the conversion will only really make sense to those TVR owners that intend to keep their car for many years.

My conversion will take up to 4 years to pay for itself, I fully appreciate that's a very long term investment that may not suit all.

But people need to know there are cheaper ways to convert a Chimaera or Griffith to LPG, you dont have to follow my path.

For example, people may just want to pick some elements of my design to apply to their project, the tank arrangement for instance is generic to the car, not specific to the systems I've selected.

I wholeheartedly encourage people considering an LPG conversion to take what they like from what I'm doing & leave the bits they don't.

Actually as it stands everything I'm doing to try and make a better LPG TVR is still theory, there's nothing to say at this stage that a far cheaper solution won't end up being just as good.

I'll be honest in saying in my case I've tried to innovate & choose the best of everything, and that approach is never going to be the cheapest.

I'm doing things this way because there's more to my LPG conversion than just the savings element, for me it's a fun hobby project too.

It's driven by my positive experiences of LPG, if you like it's an exercise in what's possible if you think outside the box & don't allow oneself to be completely handcuffed to the commercials wink

Every year we see owners throwing thousands at their TVR to gain a few more horse power, & lets face it a TVR is a hobby sports car so that makes perfect sense, consequently it's an approach that's always accepted without criticism or economic challenge/scrutiny from the group.

So while my project clearly has elements of cost saving around it, I'd ask interested parties not get too hung up on the minutia of economic detail at this stage.

I see it as an interesting & different TVR project to the norm, one that hopefully will prove how these charming & very undervalued cars can continue to compete on all levels with the likes of the very latest Porsche Boxter at a fraction of the cost.

And if you've come this far with me but still don't like the idea of an LPG TVR, I recommend you stop reading now.

Intelligent constructive criticism is always welcomed yes

However, pointless sniping at a project you don't necessarily agree with can just spoil it for those with a genuine interest in what I'm presenting here.

Wish me luck, Dave.

sapper

1,133 posts

204 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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Dave, Good luck.
A very interesting and looks to be a well thought out long term project. I will be following your progress with interest.
All the best.
Mick

ninelevent

9 posts

181 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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Dave,

Don't let Ribol be so negative !

He doesn't undesrtand your goal .

It's with many interest , i will have a look on each step of your project !

Good luck Dave .

TVR Stef

61 posts

165 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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Regarding your requested 300 mile range on LPG, you have shown 2 x 30L tanks. I've been running LPG for years in my BMW 323i it has a 70L tank but you can only fill them to about 70% and from experience I've only been able to put in 46L which gives me a range of about 260 miles. (The car does approx 32mpg on petrol).

Hope this is so some help.

Ribol

11,190 posts

257 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
ninelevent said:
Don't let Ribol be so negative !
Don't be a muppet - it was me who suggested an alternative filler arrangement to him that I had come up with when I was going to do this that he hadn't even considered.

I don't think someone considering the finances of doing something like this or considering any limitations (eg Eurotunnel) as being negative, if you do then more fool you.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
quotequote all
TVR Stef said:
Regarding your requested 300 mile range on LPG, you have shown 2 x 30L tanks. I've been running LPG for years in my BMW 323i it has a 70L tank but you can only fill them to about 70% and from experience I've only been able to put in 46L which gives me a range of about 260 miles. (The car does approx 32mpg on petrol).

Hope this is so some help.
Thanks TVR Stef,

It's important to understand the challenges of space when converting a TVR Chimaera.

The typical 80% LPG tank fill you refer to is not a legal requirement, it's used as belt & braces fail safe to protect the average driver that has no interest in technical matters.

If appropriately configured, two 30 litre tanks will hold just shy of 60 litres of LPG.

You just need to be sensible, ie don't brim the LPG tanks to 60 litres then go leave the car in the hot sun all day.

The full 60 litre capacity will only be used at the point of departure on a long trip.

Typical driving will see natural fuel consumption providing the equivalent of an 80% fill after just 50 miles or so on the move.

Systems are incorporated to ensure safe venting if required.

I am still left with the choice of either brimming when embarking on big trips, or creating my own 80% fill when preferred.

This is as simple as stopping the fill at 48 litres.

I totally accept 100% fills are not for everyone, but with the application of a little common sense I personally have no issue with the practice.

Other long standing LPG Chimaera owners have proven to have had no issues applying the common sense principle either.

BountyHunter

1,050 posts

193 months

Tuesday 26th February 2013
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im impressed - obviously a lot of thought has gone into this.

one thing - I recall from my own LPG experiences that you "only" get 80 - 85% ish fill rate.
so prob more like 50 litres in those tanks - but thats still 11 gallons ish.