How to corner really quick in a Chimaera
Discussion
Bit of a follow on from CT's thread about track cars, I didn't want to hijack so thought I'd start a new one...
So, how do you go round corners really quick in a Chim? I've been embarrassed by MX5's on track, although with the brake issues I've had I have been slowing for corners far more than others.. I'm currently running on T1R's, and I know I've reached the limit of grip with them... I know that with, for example, triple eights I'll have far more grip, but I'm expecting (after having them fitted) that beastie's cornering will be relatively the same in terms of behaviour, but going through the corners a bit quicker... So, I have what I would call a 'benign' understeer, the turn in is quite 'vague', although I could probably sharpen it up by using more throttle through the corner... When I was a youngster I had a Lotus 7, and I always felt in total command in the corners, I could pretty much steer the car on the throttle, with easy and often one handed steering input..
So, I feel I need to overcome the understeer, and use more throttle... Any thoughts???
Chilli
So, how do you go round corners really quick in a Chim? I've been embarrassed by MX5's on track, although with the brake issues I've had I have been slowing for corners far more than others.. I'm currently running on T1R's, and I know I've reached the limit of grip with them... I know that with, for example, triple eights I'll have far more grip, but I'm expecting (after having them fitted) that beastie's cornering will be relatively the same in terms of behaviour, but going through the corners a bit quicker... So, I have what I would call a 'benign' understeer, the turn in is quite 'vague', although I could probably sharpen it up by using more throttle through the corner... When I was a youngster I had a Lotus 7, and I always felt in total command in the corners, I could pretty much steer the car on the throttle, with easy and often one handed steering input..
So, I feel I need to overcome the understeer, and use more throttle... Any thoughts???
Chilli
You'll have no trouble with Triple 8s.
When I did my first few TDs on T1Rs you could flick inbetween understeer and oversteer by throttling on and off, quite disconcerting at speed.
That led to a lot of spins!
R1Rs let you corner on rails then progressively let go in a controlled mini slide iyswim but still keep you on track.
If you'd manned up and came in my car last time, (can I say that?) you would have had a truly enlightening experience
When I did my first few TDs on T1Rs you could flick inbetween understeer and oversteer by throttling on and off, quite disconcerting at speed.
That led to a lot of spins!
R1Rs let you corner on rails then progressively let go in a controlled mini slide iyswim but still keep you on track.
If you'd manned up and came in my car last time, (can I say that?) you would have had a truly enlightening experience
ChilliWhizz said:
Nail on head Peter, I know I can use more throttle to balance out the understeer/oversteer, but it's the spinning out that stops me... probably just need to grow a pair...
As regards 'manning up' to come out on track with you, I'm just a seriously crap passenger...
Get another set of wheels ,I have Federals 595 RSR`s ,they seen to stick but are never going be that good in standing water .As regards 'manning up' to come out on track with you, I'm just a seriously crap passenger...
I had an enlightening experience in the passenger seat of Peters car at a recent track day, cant say id recommend it if you'd had a bacon roll for breakfast but I did find out that my car handled terribly and that I wasn't such a good driver as I thought I was, since then I have had gaz monos fitted and new front tyres the car is much improved unfortunately I'm not still its fun trying.
Get the car corner weighted with your weight in the driving seat. It will then handle left to right the same (better balance) and give you so much more confidence, you can then really start to lean on the car.
Another alternative is to get a track day instructor to drive your car and a) show you how it can go and b) make setting recommendations.
After all the above you'll start to drive smoother and then be able to carry more speed through the corners.
Another alternative is to get a track day instructor to drive your car and a) show you how it can go and b) make setting recommendations.
After all the above you'll start to drive smoother and then be able to carry more speed through the corners.
Indeed, driver training is key. You will be amazed how quickly you can go around a circuit in any TVR when (a) you know how and (b) you have the confidence. Far too many people blame their car. Go out with someone that knows the circuit in your car before you start spending, even on tyres.
I did some formula ford training/racing many years ago but the general principles are still the same, IIRC:
- Know the circuit, particularly breaking points, apex's and optimum lines
- Don't be afraid to brake hard but progressively, without locking up and get your breaking over before you turn the steering wheel into a corner
- Drive at constant throttle in a corner until you pass the apex (at least until you know the car, circuit and yourself when you may be able to accelerate a little earlier) then accelerate rapidly but not like an on/off switch or you'll spin
- you should always be accelerating or braking everywhere else to get the best lap time, no coasting
I did some formula ford training/racing many years ago but the general principles are still the same, IIRC:
- Know the circuit, particularly breaking points, apex's and optimum lines
- Don't be afraid to brake hard but progressively, without locking up and get your breaking over before you turn the steering wheel into a corner
- Drive at constant throttle in a corner until you pass the apex (at least until you know the car, circuit and yourself when you may be able to accelerate a little earlier) then accelerate rapidly but not like an on/off switch or you'll spin
- you should always be accelerating or braking everywhere else to get the best lap time, no coasting
Edited by Englishman on Friday 29th August 21:02
Great advice about practicing .. tutition is probably more cost effective, but it's no where near as much fun of teaching yourself how to get the best out of your own car by thrapping it around various airfields and race circuits 
As far as the car is concerned.
Stiffen the suspension - quality adjustable shock absorbers with suitable springs, rose jointed ARB links help, as does ensuring all bushes are in prime condition - not necessarily uprated, just not fckd.
Camber - 2 to 3 degrees Neg.
Ride height set low - track car low ,i've never seen a TVR race car that would allow you to insert a finger between the the tyre and the wheel arch - there's a reason for that..
Wide(er)footprint , i used to to run 235 fr 255 rr section tyres on my Chimaera , Bridgestone SO-3 at the time , the grip from the wider rubber was far superior to the standard tyres (245/225 iirc using the same compound S-03).
Braking - uprating the standard Chimaera brakes wont increase cornering speed , but will certainly improve slowing speed when you've exited that fast corner
Downsides - tramlining , twitchier steering , generally less comfortable ride - all compromises i was happy to make to enjoy my car on track - each to there own.
Just a last point regarding very grippy rubber.
IMHO , for track day use , list 1B tyres ( ie Toyo R888) are really the limit of what you want to be running on track in a Chimaera ( or Griff).
Some of the latest soft compound road legal track day tyres are really very sticky - great for cornering in extremis, but when they do eventually conform to the laws of physics you'll be travelling a lot quicker than you would be on Toyo T1-R' s or equivalent road tyres.
A Chim, Griff , T Car etc - propper space frame chassis sports cars that they are - are vulnerable to side on impact - even with a roll bar , the only stuff stopping you from not wearing someone else's front bumper in your spleen ,are a fibreglass door moulding and some associated window regulator components.
Not scaremongering , but i feel it's worth mentioning .. we all want to go quicker
and that's great - track days are getting quicker , TVR's are gettng quicker with some seriously powerfull Chimaera's being built - 5 minutes on this forum will confirm that 
.
I think there's a case for having fast fun in our car's - on road and track, whilst staying just.. on the right side of safe.
As far as the car is concerned.
Stiffen the suspension - quality adjustable shock absorbers with suitable springs, rose jointed ARB links help, as does ensuring all bushes are in prime condition - not necessarily uprated, just not fckd.
Camber - 2 to 3 degrees Neg.
Ride height set low - track car low ,i've never seen a TVR race car that would allow you to insert a finger between the the tyre and the wheel arch - there's a reason for that..
Wide(er)footprint , i used to to run 235 fr 255 rr section tyres on my Chimaera , Bridgestone SO-3 at the time , the grip from the wider rubber was far superior to the standard tyres (245/225 iirc using the same compound S-03).
Braking - uprating the standard Chimaera brakes wont increase cornering speed , but will certainly improve slowing speed when you've exited that fast corner
Downsides - tramlining , twitchier steering , generally less comfortable ride - all compromises i was happy to make to enjoy my car on track - each to there own.
Just a last point regarding very grippy rubber.
IMHO , for track day use , list 1B tyres ( ie Toyo R888) are really the limit of what you want to be running on track in a Chimaera ( or Griff).
Some of the latest soft compound road legal track day tyres are really very sticky - great for cornering in extremis, but when they do eventually conform to the laws of physics you'll be travelling a lot quicker than you would be on Toyo T1-R' s or equivalent road tyres.
A Chim, Griff , T Car etc - propper space frame chassis sports cars that they are - are vulnerable to side on impact - even with a roll bar , the only stuff stopping you from not wearing someone else's front bumper in your spleen ,are a fibreglass door moulding and some associated window regulator components.
Not scaremongering , but i feel it's worth mentioning .. we all want to go quicker
and that's great - track days are getting quicker , TVR's are gettng quicker with some seriously powerfull Chimaera's being built - 5 minutes on this forum will confirm that .I think there's a case for having fast fun in our car's - on road and track, whilst staying just.. on the right side of safe
.Edited by RetroWheels on Saturday 30th August 00:33
If you are going with b list tyres R888's or similar and you are going to be at the limit of grip you will need a baffled sump to avoid oil surge and destroying the engine. The lateral g force you can get from warm 888's is massively more than any road tyres. I regularly get 1.3 lateral through fast bends whereas with road tyres the max was 1g. The only other problem with R888's and other b list tyres is that the soft compounds turn to jelly after a couple of laps and you lose grip and just slide everywhere especially on hot days. My 888's only last about 3 or 4 laps at goodwood before going off. They are great fun though.
Thanks for all the replies guys...
I already have the following... baffled sump (bought in the group buy earlier in the year), Gaz Mono's, 400/500 springs, geo set up and corner weighting courtesy of Mat Smith back end of last year, I've had an instructor out with me at Snetterton last year, but had brake judder issues so didn't get the best out of the session... Further instruction is at top of list.. I've upgraded the brakes, front 300mm rotors and 4 pots, DS2500 and braided hoses all round...
The three things at the top of my list are fit baffled sump, a new drivers seat, and tuition. I can drive the car pretty much on the limit of the T1R's, but the standard seats are shockingly unsupportive in the twisties and I spend more effort trying not to slide about in the seat than accurately pointing the front wheels in the right direction.. I did a lot of Karting in my younger days and know the value of a seat that holds you in the correct driving position all the time... I use trailing throttle through the bends, maintaining balance of the car and hence optimum grip, and I'm on it as quickly as possible on the exit, feeling the rear grip and feeding in the power accordingly...
It's just the damn understeer at turn in I seem to be struggling with.. I haven't tried turning in whilst still braking, I know this should tighten turn in, but I might leave that until I have someone who knows what they're talking about sitting next to me...
Thanks for all the input chaps,
Chilli
I already have the following... baffled sump (bought in the group buy earlier in the year), Gaz Mono's, 400/500 springs, geo set up and corner weighting courtesy of Mat Smith back end of last year, I've had an instructor out with me at Snetterton last year, but had brake judder issues so didn't get the best out of the session... Further instruction is at top of list.. I've upgraded the brakes, front 300mm rotors and 4 pots, DS2500 and braided hoses all round...
The three things at the top of my list are fit baffled sump, a new drivers seat, and tuition. I can drive the car pretty much on the limit of the T1R's, but the standard seats are shockingly unsupportive in the twisties and I spend more effort trying not to slide about in the seat than accurately pointing the front wheels in the right direction.. I did a lot of Karting in my younger days and know the value of a seat that holds you in the correct driving position all the time... I use trailing throttle through the bends, maintaining balance of the car and hence optimum grip, and I'm on it as quickly as possible on the exit, feeling the rear grip and feeding in the power accordingly...
It's just the damn understeer at turn in I seem to be struggling with.. I haven't tried turning in whilst still braking, I know this should tighten turn in, but I might leave that until I have someone who knows what they're talking about sitting next to me...
Thanks for all the input chaps,
Chilli
Just to recap on the Triple 8s.
I agree they go off their optimum performance after a while, especially on a hot day but don't be put off by that as they still are a hell of a lot better then standard tyres.
I've stayed out on track for 40 minutes many a time although normally 20ish minutes is probably good for the car!
I agree they go off their optimum performance after a while, especially on a hot day but don't be put off by that as they still are a hell of a lot better then standard tyres.
I've stayed out on track for 40 minutes many a time although normally 20ish minutes is probably good for the car!
QBee said:
Good track tyres will kill the understeer issue. You are using the wrong rubber!
That is true up to a point. Sticky rubber will give you a higher corner entry speed but eventually the car will still understeer at higher entry speeds. Controlling understeer is a mixture of tyres and set up including camber etc. In general the stiffer the front of the car the more understeer occurs. Probably the first thing to try with the existing tyres is soften the front by a couple of clicks. That my well help. If you are getting b list tyres think carefully about the type of use and the compound that you want. For track days the soft and especially the super soft compounds will go off fast and you will destroy the tyres in a few laps if you re on the limit. If you take R888's as as example, the super soft SG's are no longer made but they were brilliant for 1 or 2 laps only. The GGG softs are good and would suit a chim for the front. I have them on the front of my griff. For the rear you probably want the medium compound GG. That combination will give you better front rear balance and you should have better turn in but not melt the rears so easily. The kuhmo ecsta V70's have more choice of tyre size and compound than the r888's but again don't go too soft on a chim for track days.
The other way of killing understeer is to trail brake which gives a lot more grip on turn in. It's tricky to learn though. It took me a good few events to learn how to do it right and I had alot of spins in the learning process.
Picking up the camber point, mine has handled better since my TVR guy brought a laser thermometer to Snetterton and checked my tyre temps as I stopped in the pits. On standard road set up the outer edges were a lot hotter than the inner edges, so next time in the workshop he changed the camber by a degree and it now handles better with a lot less understeer, and the temperature after 10 laps on track is even across the front tyres.
I have my front dampers as hard as possible to reduce dive under braking, but run with the rear dampers on a soft road setting, as I found the rear of the car hopped on tight corners otherwise.
So in Gaz Gold Pro terms, (20 clicks from soft to hard, of which my poor old fingers can access 16), I run the fronts 16 clicks up from soft, and the rears 6 up from soft. It suits me.
Chilli, if you are at a loose end tomorrow, take some anti car sick pills and come over to Cadwell Park for some passenger rides. 4 TVRs on track, including Graham's Cerbera 4.5, which is substantially faster than my Chim.
I have my front dampers as hard as possible to reduce dive under braking, but run with the rear dampers on a soft road setting, as I found the rear of the car hopped on tight corners otherwise.
So in Gaz Gold Pro terms, (20 clicks from soft to hard, of which my poor old fingers can access 16), I run the fronts 16 clicks up from soft, and the rears 6 up from soft. It suits me.
Chilli, if you are at a loose end tomorrow, take some anti car sick pills and come over to Cadwell Park for some passenger rides. 4 TVRs on track, including Graham's Cerbera 4.5, which is substantially faster than my Chim.
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