Starter Motor

Starter Motor

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Discussion

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
Hi Guys,

For a while now I have been having hot start issues. Very slow to turn over but it does always start.

Had a local garage go though the wiring. Replaced a wire going to a 100amp fuse. Something to do with the alternator.

Problem is still there. Everything else checks out ok. Surly it has to be the starter motor.

Can anyone recommend a good starter for a 98 4.0 Chim? Apparently the engine might be 96.

I'm thinking I need a bigger starter with lots of heat protection.

Any help appreciated for this TVR Novice.

Ta

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
How old is your battery?

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
Fit a relay ,mine is now sorted.

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
Battery is approx. 6 months old.

Relay?????

PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
I would also check out the battery first, a small drop in the voltage and you can have problems. Also there are I believe 2 100 amp fuses, maybe worth checking them both out, also could be a bad earth.

phillpot

17,105 posts

182 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
robertsc said:
Relay?????
Commonly known as "Hot Start Kit"

basically a relay wired in circuit so the ignition switch only operates a relay which in turn operates the starter solenoid. By-passes any dodgey connections/wiring/resistance in ign. switch etc. so solenoid gets its full dollop of 12 volts.

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
phillpot said:
Commonly known as "Hot Start Kit"

basically a relay wired in circuit so the ignition switch only operates a relay which in turn operates the starter solenoid. By-passes any dodgey connections/wiring/resistance in ign. switch etc. so solenoid gets its full dollop of 12 volts.
Ah yes, already fitted this.

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
The two fuses:

One is 80 amps, is in the passenger footwell, and if it was broken not a lot would work.

The other is 100 amps and is under the car, driver's side, in a fuse holder, geographically due south of the alternator. If that one is broken, the battery doesn't charge. Check that the garage looked for 12 volts at the alternator with the engine off.

It takes more power to start a hot engine, as resistance is proportional to temperature and cable length . Hence it's a hot start problem, not a cold one. And the cable to the starter is a long one. Did they test the power at the starter with a hot engine? The cable to the starter could be knackered with heat and age, but.....

......my battery seemed fine. Took the car off the road for six weeks to change the engine, back together, charged up the battery and it worked fine with the new engine but seemed sluggish when hot. Took the car to the battery place, cell failed, new battery, no further problems.

It's not to say that your starter ain't stuffed, but I would check battery, 100 amp fuse and amps at the starter first.

Colin RedGriff

2,526 posts

256 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
Also worth checking all your earth points are clean and tight.

I just fixed a similar problem on my Griffith by cleaning and tightening earth points.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Earlier this year I also replaced the starter motor feed (the thick cable) and ran in an extra earth from the starter to the chassis. The original starter motor cable is very long and a bit on the thin side, additionally it is now nearly 20 years old.

This is a thread I bookmarked when I was planning to do mine

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
quotequote all
robertsc said:
Ah yes, already fitted this.
No not the hot start kit .

Mine is in the engine bay . Jools made me one up, Its a relay in a fused housing ,all the correct lengths ,soldered ,heat shrunk and then heat resistive sleeve .All made up like an harness .

Remove the existing solenoid live and use it for the relay kicker switch and then pick up a juicy live from the battery cable on the starter motor.

Ground it and then tuck it out the way .

All the those years of hot start problems ,now solvedcool .

My battery is in the boot and still no problems but it did make it worse before the relay Mod .










Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Sunday 26th October 21:01

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Thursday 30th October 2014
quotequote all
All done but still having issues.

I'm going for a new starter.

Any Suggestions?

Powerlite seem to do a good one. Upgraded power output. Spin faster and sits lower so further away from the exhaust. Will also get a heat shield for it.

Quite expensive though compared to others. Is it a case of 'you get what you pay for'?

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

136 months

Thursday 30th October 2014
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Before you replace your starter, it may be worth trying a couple of things to rule out some potential problems, otherwise you can quickly spend a lot of money replacing components that don't need replacing, whilst trying to identify the source of the problem.

Firstly, use a known good battery from another car. Fit it into the Chimaera and try starting. If it turns over quickly using the other car's battery, then you can probably assume that the original Chimaera battery is on its way out. If there's no change and the car still turns over slow, then you know it isn't the battery.

Secondly, with the original Chimaera battery connected to the car; attach one end of a jump lead to the battery's earth terminal and the other to a clean earth on the engine or chassis (swirl pot bolts are normally good). If it turns over quickly and starts normally, then you know you have an earthing issue and it isn't the battery.

Thirdly, you need to check the starter. Remove the Chimaera's battery in the footwell, remove the king lead from the coil in the engine bay, apply the handbrake and leave in neutral (very important). Then jack the car up and support with an axle stand. Attach one jump lead to the negative of the battery and then to a clean earthing point on the chassis or engine (off-side earthing point in wheel arch or swirl pot). Attach the second jump lead to the battery's positive terminal and then to the live terminal on the starter motor. This will cause the engine to crank (hence leaving in neutral). If it cranks quickly, then you can rule out the starter motor.

Using the last 'starter motor' test: if it cranks quickly using the original Chimaera battery, then you can probably rule out both the battery and the starter. If it cranks quickly using a known good battery, but slowly with the original Chimaera battery, then you can pretty much assume that it is the original battery on it's way out. If it cranks quickly with both batteries connected to the starter motor, then the issue lies somewhere between the starter and the battery.

The hot start mod kit is a temporary fix, that normally addresses a growing issue with the immobiliser or the live-feed cabling. Your problem sounds like the battery to me, but the above tests will tell you one way or another. Starter motors I normally associated with the dreaded 'clicking' sound as the starter is trying to engage.

Post your results!


Edited by Chuffmeister on Thursday 30th October 21:58


Edited by Chuffmeister on Thursday 30th October 21:59

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Thursday 30th October 2014
quotequote all
Will def post results.

I have had a new battery fitted as well. Correct one.

I have also had a jump pack connect straight onto starter while in place and did not improve crank.

I think I have covered everything.

Surly it has to be the starter!!!

I appreciate your advice though

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

136 months

Thursday 30th October 2014
quotequote all
robertsc said:
Will def post results.

I have had a new battery fitted as well. Correct one.

I have also had a jump pack connect straight onto starter while in place and did not improve crank.

I think I have covered everything.

Surly it has to be the starter!!!

I appreciate your advice though
Check the earths first! There is an earthing point on the rear of the nearside cylinder head (hand behind manifold jobbie); or; you could use the bolts on the swirl pot. Attach a jump lead to the battery negative and the other to a known clean earth.

I went through a similar thing last year, swore it was the starter myself (ordered one and then had to return it:roll eyessmile, plus changes the live feed, battery etc. The last thing I checked was the earths... and guess what!?

Sardonicus

18,928 posts

220 months

Thursday 30th October 2014
quotequote all
Good grounding/earth returns so often overlooked even by so called qualified techs, actually not understanding what's going on and why, no point having big chunky power cables if the circuit as poor grounding. ..... Period.

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

136 months

Friday 31st October 2014
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
Good grounding/earth returns so often overlooked even by so called qualified techs, actually not understanding what's going on and why, no point having big chunky power cables if the circuit as poor grounding. ..... Period.
^^^^^^^^ yes

nawarne

3,088 posts

259 months

Friday 31st October 2014
quotequote all
Please, please, also give the starter itself a bit of love.

They live in a hot, dirty environment...and by now, most will be at least 14 (or so) years old. I had an issue where the starter was reluctant to disengage after start-up. I unbolted starter and was surprised at the amount of carbon/crud that had built up on the motor shaft/spring/pinion. A good clean and grease sorted the problem.

Removing the starter, cleaning it and the solenoid along with checking the brushes and bearings can give the 'old' one a new lease of life. Common sense maintenance, like using a bit of copperslip on the pinion gear and shaft that the pinion slides on may really help.
Nick

ukdj

1,004 posts

183 months

Friday 31st October 2014
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give http://www.londonessexautoelectrics.co.uk/ a call, they usually have them on the shelf ready to go.

Sardonicus

18,928 posts

220 months

Friday 31st October 2014
quotequote all
nawarne said:
Please, please, also give the starter itself a bit of love.

They live in a hot, dirty environment...and by now, most will be at least 14 (or so) years old. I had an issue where the starter was reluctant to disengage after start-up. I unbolted starter and was surprised at the amount of carbon/crud that had built up on the motor shaft/spring/pinion. A good clean and grease sorted the problem.

Removing the starter, cleaning it and the solenoid along with checking the brushes and bearings can give the 'old' one a new lease of life. Common sense maintenance, like using a bit of copperslip on the pinion gear and shaft that the pinion slides on may really help.
Nick
Very good point wink

robertsc

Original Poster:

8 posts

113 months

Saturday 1st November 2014
quotequote all
Thanks guys, all a great help!