Almost failed to proceed - Immobiliser?

Almost failed to proceed - Immobiliser?

Author
Discussion

Danblez

Original Poster:

276 posts

210 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Since getting my chim I have now had 3 almost failed to proceed moments. These are always after the car is hot and when it has been switched off for anything from 30 seconds to 5 minutes and results in nothing happening when turning the key.

The first time it happened I had pulled over to take some pics, decided to move the car a few feet. I turned the alarm on and off a few times and it eventually started up as normal. The second time I was at home, I had got out to grab something from the house, returned and same symptoms again. This time I messed around with the alarm for a full 30 mins opening and closing doors, locking and unlocking the car. I gave up and was about to post for help when after an hour it started up as normal and behaved perfectly for a week.

The final episode was yesterday at a petrol station, I filled up locked up and when I returned again nothing on the turn of the key. I rather embarrassingly pushed the car off the forecourt to a few smiles and did the usual with the alarm to no avail. I then switch over fuel pump relay and ECU relay, still nothing. Eventually pulled the ECU out for 30 seconds plugged it back in and it started. Coincidence? Quite possibly.

When this occurs the dashlights dim on full turn of the key and there is the faintest dull click which sounds electrical more than starter solenoid. If it is the immobiliser would this normally still turn the engine over or does it cut the starter?

Any tips on the best way to investigate this would be appreciated before I am arriving home on the back of a truck?

rabowman

284 posts

187 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Happens to most of us !!
Obviously check state of battery and that it is charging ok and then fit a Mod Wise Hot Start Kit (easy fit about 30 mins including a beer)
Rob

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Pick new live up from starter motor and connect in to a fused relay ,disconnect solenoid live and connect in to relay ,ground the relay then connect a new live from the relay to the solenoid ,job done .

It`s never let me down since .

Goaty Bill 2

3,393 posts

118 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
It certainly sounds like the typical 'hot start' issue.
It is well documented fault usually occurring after a few years and a few miles to almost all Chimaeras.
Chimaera Pages FAQS

There are more solutions than the mod-wise kit, but it has been used many times as the solution.
Most TVR specialist garages can supply a fix if you don't feel like doing it yourself.

Danblez

Original Poster:

276 posts

210 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
D'oh have heard about the hot start issue but was convinced this was the immobiliser.

Many thanks for the quick response, I will do some further investigation.

ianwayne

6,243 posts

267 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Happens to me occasionally. I believe it is the immobiliser if nothing happens at all.

If you get a 'click' or a very slow turn of the starter, it's maybe the 'hot start' issue, but if there's nothing at all, I reckon on the immobiliser.

Goaty Bill 2

3,393 posts

118 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Danblez said:
When this occurs the dashlights dim on full turn of the key and there is the faintest dull click which sounds electrical more than starter solenoid.
Indicates hot start.


Danblez said:
If it is the immobiliser would this normally still turn the engine over or does it cut the starter?
Immobiliser will stop anything from happening.

QBee

20,903 posts

143 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Just to fill in the blanks a little, there is more than one hot start issue, but they all have the same "non-start when warm" symptom.

1. The Meta immobiliser was wired up incorrectly by the factory, and as the years go by the relay within it starts to fail. Symptom - car stone dead. Solution - new immobiliser or bypass the existing.
2. The cable from battery to starter is long and too thin, and passes over the gearbox on it's journey across the car, so over time the resistance (thinner the cable, hotter the cable, the higher the resistance) starts to cause the cable to disintegrate. Solution - fit a new cable (as Daz suggested) and make it a good chunky one. Test for this - when the car next fails to start at home, jack it up quickly and attach a heavy duty long jump lead (or pair of leads) from battery to starter motor and see if it starts
3. The starter motor or the starter solenoid may be on their way out. Solution - replace.
4. Just occasionally, if you have stalled say at a roundabout and then the car won't re-start, the immobiliser may have activated. I had that happen and it was simply solved by locking and unlocking the car.

On my car it was the immobiliser, others have reported cable failures and starter failures. Anyone who has moved the battery to the boot and has the starter cable issue unknowingly exacerbates the problem.

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Pick new live up from starter motor and connect in to a fused relay ,disconnect solenoid live and connect in to relay ,ground the relay then connect a new live from the relay to the solenoid ,job done .

It`s never let me down since .
Do this ^^^^^ but combine it with bypassing the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit and you'll never have the problem again.

Some (but bizarrely not all) of the original TVR wiring to the starter solenoid is of an inadequate gauge too, so an upgrade here is a good idea, however with a correctly added relay as described above it's largely unnecessary.

The true route cause of the problem is that the starter solenoid circuit passes through the immobiliser, and it's the burnt & pitted contacts on the little inadequate switching relay buried deep inside the immobiliser that's where the issue truly resides.

Adding a relay (which is all the Hot-Start kit is) and keeping the failing immobiliser element in the equation will not help solve the problem long term, all it will do is mask the underlining rout cause for a undefinable period of time.

The Hot-Start kit can not and will not repair any existing damage that the feeble little starter solenoid switching relay inside the immobiliser has already suffered, because that damage is irreversible. Fitting the Hot-Start kit and ignoring the underlying issue is storing up the very real possibility of another failure in the future just when you dont need it.

At this point you'll probably find the the immobiliser failure on the starter circuit is catastrophic and so completely irreversible, even the temporary bodge trick of tapping the immobiliser to free up the sticking switching relay wont get you going when this happens.

Interestingly the Hot-Start kit (a relay) on it's own probably would have saved the immoliser had TVR had the foresight to fit one to the car from new, but they didn't!

So if you are retrospectively fitting a relay (Hot-Start kit) after you've suffered the classic Chimaera no-start event, make sure you:

A: Solve the real rout cause of the problem first (replace or bypass the immobiliser)

B: Fit the relay as close to the starter solenoid as possible, not hanging precariously way over on the opposite side of the car in the passenger footwell as demonstrated with the Hot-Start kit

Keeping the high amp live feed from the relay to the starter solenoid as short as possible is best practice, this is because (as we all learned in school) resistance increases the longer the wire is, it's the same reason you need to choose cable that's of a sufficiently thick gauge.

I also recommend fitting an in-line blade fuse for additional safety.

The relay not only needs to be as close to the starter solenoid as possible it also needs to be located in a dry place, so under the driver's side of the dash is ideal. Ensure the relay and its fuse are easily accessible should there be an issue.

Finally when bypassing the immobiliser adding a simple hidden rocker switch into your new circuit ensures you can manually isolate the starter circuit. The car will actually remain secure after the starter circuit immobiliser bypass because the immobiliser also controls the live to the ECU, but a hidden switch is worth having anyway.

Bypassing the immobiliser is simple once you understand it's just a switch itself, a switch you turn on & off at a short distance from outside the car with your alarm fob rather than one you flick with your finger.

Do it right - do it once!

Do half the job by just fitting the Hot-start kit and then hoping the problem will never come back could eventually leave you in a world of regret.

If the immobiliser finally packs up completely one dark night when all you really want is to get home in the warm, the Hot-start kit wont help you!

Think about it scratchchin

Danblez

Original Poster:

276 posts

210 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Only last week I noticed that this cable was looking a bit worse for wear on the block. I presume this is to the starter? Is that a fuse in between?



Incidentally is the original immobiliser separate from the alarm? I have 2 alarm/immobilser LEDs one on the dash (can flash green, red or both) and what looks like an aftermarket on the top of the cowl which just flashed red when the alarm is enabled. Both can be flashing differently at different times. It would be good to understand which does what, especially as I have a toad alarm fob and an immobiliser fob on my keys! confused



Edited by Danblez on Monday 26th January 13:04

QBee

20,903 posts

143 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
It looks like a 100 amp fuse that has had few beers.

There is one between the alternator and the battery. On my 1999 car it is directly below the alternator, attached to the chassis near the front offside wishbone. If you open the black holder there may well be s blade fuse in there. it's a good idea to buy a spare, either blade or midi, as they do fail from time to time and you will be running on battery until that is flat... I think you need a 10mm spanner IIRC

David Beer

3,982 posts

266 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
[quote=ChimpOnGas]

Do this ^^^^^ but combine it with bypassing the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit and you'll never have the problem again.

Some (but bizarrely not all) of the original TVR wiring to the starter solenoid is of an inadequate gauge too, so an upgrade here is a good idea, however with a correctly added relay as described above it's largely unnecessary.

The true route cause of the problem is that the starter solenoid circuit passes through the immobiliser, and it's the burnt & pitted contacts on the little inadequate switching relay buried deep inside the immobiliser that's where the issue truly resides.

Adding a relay (which is all the Hot-Start kit is) and keeping the failing immobiliser element in the equation will not help solve the problem long term, all it will do is mask the underlining rout cause for a undefinable period of time.

The Hot-Start kit can not and will not repair any existing damage that the feeble little starter solenoid switching relay inside the immobiliser has already suffered, because that damage is irreversible. Fitting the Hot-Start kit and ignoring the underlying issue is storing up the very real possibility of another failure in the future just when you dont need it.

At this point you'll probably find the the immobiliser failure on the starter circuit is catastrophic and so completely irreversible, even the temporary bodge trick of tapping the immobiliser to free up the sticking switching relay wont get you going when this happens.

Interestingly the Hot-Start kit (a relay) on it's own probably would have saved the immoliser had TVR had the foresight to fit one to the car from new, but they didn't!

So if you are retrospectively fitting a relay (Hot-Start kit) after you've suffered the classic Chimaera no-start event, make sure you:

A: Solve the real rout cause of the problem first (replace or bypass the immobiliser)

B: Fit the relay as close to the starter solenoid as possible, not hanging precariously way over on the opposite side of the car in the passenger footwell as demonstrated with the Hot-Start kit

Keeping the high amp live feed from the relay to the starter solenoid as short as possible is best practice, this is because (as we all learned in school) resistance increases the longer the wire is, it's the same reason you need to choose cable that's of a sufficiently thick gauge.

I also recommend fitting an in-line blade fuse for additional safety.

The relay not only needs to be as close to the starter solenoid as possible it also needs to be located in a dry place, so under the driver's side of the dash is ideal. Ensure the relay and its fuse are easily accessible should there be an issue.

Finally when bypassing the immobiliser adding a simple hidden rocker switch into your new circuit ensures you can manually isolate the starter circuit. The car will actually remain secure after the starter circuit immobiliser bypass because the immobiliser also controls the live to the ECU, but a hidden switch is worth having anyway.

Bypassing the immobiliser is simple once you understand it's just a switch itself, a switch you turn on & off at a short distance from outside the car with your alarm fob rather than one you flick with your finger.

Do it right - do it once!

Do half the job by just fitting the Hot-start kit and then hoping the problem will never come back could eventually leave you in a world of regret.

If the immobiliser finally packs up completely one dark night when all you really want is to get home in the warm, the Hot-start kit wont help you!

Think about it scratchchin[/quo


Range Rover use the same cable from the fuse box to solenoid. But they have the relay fitted. Never have a problem. The solenoid cable from the fuse box is easily capable of supplying 15 amps. The crap wiring to that point is the problem, hence putting back the relay. Details of how to diy are free.

David Beer

3,982 posts

266 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Hi chimpongas ,any comment

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
David Beer said:
Hi chimpongas ,any comment
Comment on what? my own comments confused

If you mean that really helpful information about Range Rovers posted on a TVR forum all I'd say is this...

Land Rover never fitted Meta immobiliser and if they had of done you can be sure they wouldn't have wired it the incorrect way TVR did. As a consequence you can also be sure the Range Rover wouldn't suffer the immobiliser related starting problems so common on Chimaeras & Griffiths that a number of people have made a living out of replacing the poorly installed original TVR security system.

To anyone having hot start issues I recommend (just as an experiment) temporarily bypassing the immobiliser first, then see if your problem vanishes.

I understand as a trader there's a strong motivation to defend the products you sell, but don't PH have rules bout traders discussing their products & services on their forums?

I suspect they apply this rule for very good reason wink

People should be under no illusion, fitting a relay after the starting problem has raised it's head will not and can not solve the burnt contacts inside your immobiliser.

The only solution to that is to either to replace the security system or bypass it on the problematic starter solenoid circuit.

Following that fit a relay to the starter solenoid circuit by all means, after all it is indeed best practice to do so.

But fitting a relay and leaving the immobiliser in it's wounded state most definitely isn't a long term solution to anything.

David Beer

3,982 posts

266 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Ok you win. I was wrong.

Edited by David Beer on Monday 26th January 19:07

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
David Beer said:
I think you missed my post?


No I didn't.

David Beer said:
Ok you win. I was wrong.
Thanks but it's not a competition, more a case of making sure fellow enthusiasts understand where the rout cause of the problem really resides and not pedaling false hope.

Don't take my word for it though, ask Carl Baker why he advises his customers remove the hot start kit once he's solved the the real culprit by replacing the poorly installed original TVR security system. In fact he'll happily remove it himself as part of his service.

But hey, none of this should stop you buying the hot start kit from David Beer. If yet another relay hanging precariously like a third digleberry in your passenger footwell floats your boat, go for it.

Probably wont fix your immobiliser fault though wink


SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
Is this the original immobiliser? if i get it ripped out will it effect the central locking ?




ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Is this the original immobiliser? if i get it ripped out will it effect the central locking ?



No that's one of TVR's special little black boxes wink

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
No that's one of TVR's special little black boxes wink
Am i looking at the wrong thing ?

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th January 2015
quotequote all
SILICONEKID345HP said:
ChimpOnGas said:
No that's one of TVR's special little black boxes wink
Am i looking at the wrong thing ?
How the hell do I know what you're looking at?



If it helps I think the pink sausage shaped thing is a finger?