Welcome to TVR ownership......car wont start.
Discussion
Hi Guys.
Went to move the car this evening so i could give her a wash and a polish, but it wont start at all.
I leave her unlocked in the garage bjt the fob locks and unlocks fine.
When I turn the key, press the button on the fob and try to start it I then get an electrical noise which sounds like the fuel pump priming but the car doesnt even attempt to turn over.
When i turn the key back i get an electrical noise that goes "errrrrrrrrr". Lol.
Battery voltage reading 11.5v
Hazards, dash lights and radio come on, but no other lights. Not sure if this is just because of how the permanent live has been wired?
Any ideas? Meant to be going to the south coast pub club on Tuesday so dont want to miss out!
Thanks
Went to move the car this evening so i could give her a wash and a polish, but it wont start at all.
I leave her unlocked in the garage bjt the fob locks and unlocks fine.
When I turn the key, press the button on the fob and try to start it I then get an electrical noise which sounds like the fuel pump priming but the car doesnt even attempt to turn over.
When i turn the key back i get an electrical noise that goes "errrrrrrrrr". Lol.
Battery voltage reading 11.5v
Hazards, dash lights and radio come on, but no other lights. Not sure if this is just because of how the permanent live has been wired?
Any ideas? Meant to be going to the south coast pub club on Tuesday so dont want to miss out!
Thanks
Had pretty much the same problem with my Cerb a couple of weeks ago. Everyone on here said it would be the battery so I replaced with a new one and problem solved. You really can't fault the help and advice you get from the more experienced owners on here, they've saved me alot of time and money.
harry henderson said:
Had pretty much the same problem with my Cerb a couple of weeks ago. Everyone on here said it would be the battery so I replaced with a new one and problem solved. You really can't fault the help and advice you get from the more experienced owners on here, they've saved me alot of time and money.
Thanks Harry. Heres hoping its that simple! Not sure why it would havw gone flat so quickly. Only used it less than a week ago!That 'Grrrrr' is the idle air stepper motor returning to home and is normal
Put the headlights on and try to turn the engine over.
Do the lights dim a lot or does nothing happen at all?
If the lights dim a lot but you get nothing from the started motor then it's likely just a low battery. Check battery terminal connections and charge.
If you get nothing at all happening then it might be on the low current side of the system.
A trick is to bang the dash board on the passenger side whilst trying to turn the engine over.
This can free up the sticking relay in the immobiliser.
Good luck
Put the headlights on and try to turn the engine over.
Do the lights dim a lot or does nothing happen at all?
If the lights dim a lot but you get nothing from the started motor then it's likely just a low battery. Check battery terminal connections and charge.
If you get nothing at all happening then it might be on the low current side of the system.
A trick is to bang the dash board on the passenger side whilst trying to turn the engine over.
This can free up the sticking relay in the immobiliser.
Good luck
Likewise with my old battery 3 days left off the trickle charger and it wouldn't start. Jumping off the other car would be successful via the Anderson connector.
New battery fitted a while back and have done a little test leaving the car off trickle charge for a week and started no problem. But I'm in the habit now of car goes in garage boot open trickle charge connected. Personally feel the mods of Anderson and trickle charger if not already fitted should be dealt with before any performance upgrades.
New battery fitted a while back and have done a little test leaving the car off trickle charge for a week and started no problem. But I'm in the habit now of car goes in garage boot open trickle charge connected. Personally feel the mods of Anderson and trickle charger if not already fitted should be dealt with before any performance upgrades.
As above, when I bought my car, the battery had gone flat and been recharged several times and I had the same symptoms. I bought a new battery which is slightly bigger capacity than the original and have no problems since. I usually put the trickle charger on a couple of days a week to be safe. The original battery still has enough power to start a family size saloon but not that big old 4 litre lump.
davelittlewood said:
That 'Grrrrr' is the idle air stepper motor returning to home and is normal
Put the headlights on and try to turn the engine over.
Do the lights dim a lot or does nothing happen at all?
If the lights dim a lot but you get nothing from the started motor then it's likely just a low battery. Check battery terminal connections and charge.
If you get nothing at all happening then it might be on the low current side of the system.
A trick is to bang the dash board on the passenger side whilst trying to turn the engine over.
This can free up the sticking relay in the immobiliser.
Good luck
Dave thanks for the detailed reply. When i turned the lights on i got nothing obvious. But i didnt go round to the front to look at the lenses, i was just sat in the car watching the wall.Put the headlights on and try to turn the engine over.
Do the lights dim a lot or does nothing happen at all?
If the lights dim a lot but you get nothing from the started motor then it's likely just a low battery. Check battery terminal connections and charge.
If you get nothing at all happening then it might be on the low current side of the system.
A trick is to bang the dash board on the passenger side whilst trying to turn the engine over.
This can free up the sticking relay in the immobiliser.
Good luck
I did try banging the dash after reading that on another thread. Maybe it wasnt quite hard enough!
alan-87 said:
Thanks gents.
Ive got the battery on charge as we speak so fingers crossed this is the simple solution!
Whats the recommended trickle chargers everybody is using?
I have a CTEK but people also recommend Accumate too. I have a fused flylead direct to the battery as I don't fancy trusting the fag lighter to do the charging having seen the wiring to it!Ive got the battery on charge as we speak so fingers crossed this is the simple solution!
Whats the recommended trickle chargers everybody is using?
alan-87 said:
I did try banging the dash after reading that on another thread. Maybe it wasnt quite hard enough!
you did hit the underside of the dash rather than the top?If it is the sticky relay, a good hefty thump usually close to the tunnel rather than the door will free it up.
it could also be a sticky starter solenoid, with the car off - put it in 3rd and rock the car back and forth a little, take it out of gear and then attempt to start it.
You can also try giving the starter a little "tap" to try and free it up, use a small bar or something similar down through the o/s exhaust manifold branches to reach the starter.
Obviously it would be good to confirm you are getting 12v at the solenoid when attempting to start the car, which will at least prove if the immobiliser has deactivated.
Edited by ukdj on Sunday 28th June 23:25
Please take the battery out and take it to a decent autospares independent. Ask them to put a battery tester on it and let you know the results, both amps and volts.
To start the car you need 12.5 volts and just under 600 amps.
My wife's Saab looked to have a good battery (nice clean new-looking Exide) when we bought it in March, and it started fine every time until about a week ago when i came to it one morning to take my grand-kids to school and it wouldn't start - barely a whirr from the starter. Checked the voltage with my trusty multimeter, 11 volts, so put the charger on it for 24 hours and used my own Saab.
Next morning I had 12.4 volts, still just a small noise from the starter and no way was it going to turn over. Puzzled, I whipped it out of the car and took it to the autospares place. He showed me the results from his tester - 12.4 volts, but only 61 amps - it should have been 610 amps. £58 poorer, but the car started perfectly again.
That's the problem - as well as 12.5+ volts, you need around 600 amps to start a car, and my multimeter doesn't go anywhere near that. If yours does, test the amperage.
I would put money on it being a duff battery (I have had to replace three of ours recently, though not the TVR), so please have it checked and/or replaced before you waste too much lovely driving weather faffing about with trickle chargers and the rest. They do have their place keeping a healthy battery in tip top condition, but won't solve a duff one.
To start the car you need 12.5 volts and just under 600 amps.
My wife's Saab looked to have a good battery (nice clean new-looking Exide) when we bought it in March, and it started fine every time until about a week ago when i came to it one morning to take my grand-kids to school and it wouldn't start - barely a whirr from the starter. Checked the voltage with my trusty multimeter, 11 volts, so put the charger on it for 24 hours and used my own Saab.
Next morning I had 12.4 volts, still just a small noise from the starter and no way was it going to turn over. Puzzled, I whipped it out of the car and took it to the autospares place. He showed me the results from his tester - 12.4 volts, but only 61 amps - it should have been 610 amps. £58 poorer, but the car started perfectly again.
That's the problem - as well as 12.5+ volts, you need around 600 amps to start a car, and my multimeter doesn't go anywhere near that. If yours does, test the amperage.
I would put money on it being a duff battery (I have had to replace three of ours recently, though not the TVR), so please have it checked and/or replaced before you waste too much lovely driving weather faffing about with trickle chargers and the rest. They do have their place keeping a healthy battery in tip top condition, but won't solve a duff one.
Correct diagnosis involves avoiding the temptation to make assumptions, it also involves properly testing every component in the system.
1. Battery
2. Low amp starter solenoid circuit
3. The high amp starter motor circuit
4. The starter motor itself
It would be nice to think you can diagnose a fault over a forum but the truth is there is no substitute for completing a series of logical tests to prove or disprove the many theories helpful contributors will suggest on here.
Before you start your tests you should first fully understand how the starter system works and how to use a multimeter to test the correct operation of every element/component. Where the forum can help is to give you a steer on the common known faults in the Chimaera starter circuit.
To this end I prefer not to take a wild guess at what your fault is, but to suggest some useful tests and give you some pointers on what normally gives trouble with the Chimaera starter system.
Remember, these are just pointers, only proper testing of your car using a multimeter and professional battery test equipment will reveal the issue or more likely the issues your car is suffering.
Knowing these cars well I strongly suspect you have more than one issue, these normally hidden group of issues have only become a no start situation because one element has become a little worse meaning you have reached critical mass (IE the no start).
In the immediate simply replacing the battery may well resolve the no start problem, but it will not fix other underlying issues that mean the car remains on the knife edge of a future failure to start.
It's important to understand proper battery testing means a heavy discharge test, this will tell you how well the battery copes with load.
However!
This and other battery tests tell you nothing about what the starter motor is receiving or the starter solenoid for that matter.
Things you need to know about the Chimaera high amp starter circuit:
1. The big red lead from the battery positive terminal to the starter motor is very long (7ft plus) and TVR used a rather inadequate gauge cable
2. This lead also corrodes and degrades over time causing very high resistance
3. The earthing of the starter is often very poor
Given the above and following your direct battery tests, even if you end up with a new battery you are strongly advised to test the voltage & amp drop at the starter motor itself.
Given the three above known issues it's highly likely even though the car may appear to start well your new battery will still be suffering a much more punishing time cranking the engine than is good for it.
If you find a big amp drop at the starter (and I bet you wlll) the solution is to replace the old corroded and inadequate gauge starter cable, you can't make it much shorter (which would be desirable) due to the location of the battery in the passenger footwell and the starter motor being on the drivers side of the engine block but you can use a heavier gauge cable (50mm²).
Finish the job off by adding a direct earth return again using the same heavier 50mm² cable. Run this additional earth from the lower starter motor mounting bolt direct to the negative battery terminal.
Re-test your voltage & amp drop, I will put money on a massive improvement which will mean every time you start your car your battery will have a much easier time, this will help to extend battery life and ensure the engine spins over much more strongly.
Things you need to know about the Chimaera low amp starter solenoid circuit:
1. This circuit passes through the immobiliser, more specifically a relay embedded inside the immobiliser
2. There are two relays inside the immobiliser, one higher amp one for the starter solenoid circuit and one low amp one for the ECU
3. In their wisdom TVR chose not to fit a dedicated starter relay, preferring instead to rely on the relay inside the immobiliser - it gets worse
4. TVR then chose to wire the starter solenoid circuit through the very low amp immobiliser relay rather than the higher amp one, and the very low amp ECU circuit through the much beefier higher amp relay
5. This means the low amp immobiliser relay has a very hard life and it's contacts tend to pit & blacken
6. This very stupid immobiliser wiring mistake by TVR is the true cause of the so called "Hot Start" issue, in truth while it often raises it's ugly head when the car is hot (resistance in any electrical circuit rises with heat) it can still often happen when the car is stone cold
7. You can not repair the damaged contacts on the relay embedded inside the immobiliser by adding a second relay IE the so called "Hot Start Kit". The damage is already done!
The only two permanent solutions for the failing immobiliser relay problem is to replace both the immobiliser and alarm units which are paired together, or to simply bypass the immobiliser on the starter circuit.
In summary you may well find replacing your battery resolves your no start problem in the short term, but given the well understood additional issues I've listed above you are strongly advised to test & resolve any other faults you will probably find following some basic tests with your multimeter.
1. Battery
2. Low amp starter solenoid circuit
3. The high amp starter motor circuit
4. The starter motor itself
It would be nice to think you can diagnose a fault over a forum but the truth is there is no substitute for completing a series of logical tests to prove or disprove the many theories helpful contributors will suggest on here.
Before you start your tests you should first fully understand how the starter system works and how to use a multimeter to test the correct operation of every element/component. Where the forum can help is to give you a steer on the common known faults in the Chimaera starter circuit.
To this end I prefer not to take a wild guess at what your fault is, but to suggest some useful tests and give you some pointers on what normally gives trouble with the Chimaera starter system.
Remember, these are just pointers, only proper testing of your car using a multimeter and professional battery test equipment will reveal the issue or more likely the issues your car is suffering.
Knowing these cars well I strongly suspect you have more than one issue, these normally hidden group of issues have only become a no start situation because one element has become a little worse meaning you have reached critical mass (IE the no start).
In the immediate simply replacing the battery may well resolve the no start problem, but it will not fix other underlying issues that mean the car remains on the knife edge of a future failure to start.
It's important to understand proper battery testing means a heavy discharge test, this will tell you how well the battery copes with load.
However!
This and other battery tests tell you nothing about what the starter motor is receiving or the starter solenoid for that matter.
Things you need to know about the Chimaera high amp starter circuit:
1. The big red lead from the battery positive terminal to the starter motor is very long (7ft plus) and TVR used a rather inadequate gauge cable
2. This lead also corrodes and degrades over time causing very high resistance
3. The earthing of the starter is often very poor
Given the above and following your direct battery tests, even if you end up with a new battery you are strongly advised to test the voltage & amp drop at the starter motor itself.
Given the three above known issues it's highly likely even though the car may appear to start well your new battery will still be suffering a much more punishing time cranking the engine than is good for it.
If you find a big amp drop at the starter (and I bet you wlll) the solution is to replace the old corroded and inadequate gauge starter cable, you can't make it much shorter (which would be desirable) due to the location of the battery in the passenger footwell and the starter motor being on the drivers side of the engine block but you can use a heavier gauge cable (50mm²).
Finish the job off by adding a direct earth return again using the same heavier 50mm² cable. Run this additional earth from the lower starter motor mounting bolt direct to the negative battery terminal.
Re-test your voltage & amp drop, I will put money on a massive improvement which will mean every time you start your car your battery will have a much easier time, this will help to extend battery life and ensure the engine spins over much more strongly.
Things you need to know about the Chimaera low amp starter solenoid circuit:
1. This circuit passes through the immobiliser, more specifically a relay embedded inside the immobiliser
2. There are two relays inside the immobiliser, one higher amp one for the starter solenoid circuit and one low amp one for the ECU
3. In their wisdom TVR chose not to fit a dedicated starter relay, preferring instead to rely on the relay inside the immobiliser - it gets worse
4. TVR then chose to wire the starter solenoid circuit through the very low amp immobiliser relay rather than the higher amp one, and the very low amp ECU circuit through the much beefier higher amp relay
5. This means the low amp immobiliser relay has a very hard life and it's contacts tend to pit & blacken
6. This very stupid immobiliser wiring mistake by TVR is the true cause of the so called "Hot Start" issue, in truth while it often raises it's ugly head when the car is hot (resistance in any electrical circuit rises with heat) it can still often happen when the car is stone cold
7. You can not repair the damaged contacts on the relay embedded inside the immobiliser by adding a second relay IE the so called "Hot Start Kit". The damage is already done!
The only two permanent solutions for the failing immobiliser relay problem is to replace both the immobiliser and alarm units which are paired together, or to simply bypass the immobiliser on the starter circuit.
In summary you may well find replacing your battery resolves your no start problem in the short term, but given the well understood additional issues I've listed above you are strongly advised to test & resolve any other faults you will probably find following some basic tests with your multimeter.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 29th June 08:31
Having read everything that Chimpo has said, I cannot do anything but completely agree with him. There really are that many things that can be wrong.
BUT, if you are starting with a battery showing 11.5 volts, even if it does go to 12.5 volts after 24 hours on your charger and starts the car, I would plead with you to take it, in or out of the car, and get the nice man to put his battery tester on it and tell you what condition it is in. It will save you so much heartache and so many missed glorious summer drives.
I have wasted so many hours and days in the last nine months faffing about trying everything else on three different cars with electrical/starting issues (my TVR is the only one with no issues, of course), only to end up fixing the problem in each case by changing the battery.
(oh, plus laying the tilt sensor in my Audi flat - it thought the car was stuck to the side of a cliff.
No, I have no idea why it needs a tilt sensor in the first place)
BUT, if you are starting with a battery showing 11.5 volts, even if it does go to 12.5 volts after 24 hours on your charger and starts the car, I would plead with you to take it, in or out of the car, and get the nice man to put his battery tester on it and tell you what condition it is in. It will save you so much heartache and so many missed glorious summer drives.
I have wasted so many hours and days in the last nine months faffing about trying everything else on three different cars with electrical/starting issues (my TVR is the only one with no issues, of course), only to end up fixing the problem in each case by changing the battery.
(oh, plus laying the tilt sensor in my Audi flat - it thought the car was stuck to the side of a cliff.
No, I have no idea why it needs a tilt sensor in the first place)Chimpongas- thank you for such an excellent post. I shall certainly work my way through that list and it has already improved my knowledge no end. I really appreciate you taking the time to write that up.
Qbee- car now starts after a 24hour charge so battery could well be weak as suggested. I think as well as working through COG post a new battery certainly wont do any arm.
Thanks for all the informative posts and support guys!
Qbee- car now starts after a 24hour charge so battery could well be weak as suggested. I think as well as working through COG post a new battery certainly wont do any arm.
Thanks for all the informative posts and support guys!
Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff