Ecu upgrade, what to expect ?

[QBee]

phazed said:

QBee said:

Crikey, Pete, I didn't know you could take your bike test on your 5th birthday back then.........

.........or is there a portrait in your attic you haven't mentioned?

If only!

I don't understand the second bit!

It's a reference to a novel by Oscar Wilde, in which Dorian Gray, a good looking young man, has his picture painted and wishes that his portrait could age in his place, and let him stay looking forever young.
It hasn't escaped my notice that you and I look many more years apart in age than we actually are, and I took my car driving test within 10 weeks of my 17th birthday.......in 1970.

[phazed]

QBee said:

phazed said:

QBee said:

Crikey, Pete, I didn't know you could take your bike test on your 5th birthday back then.........

.........or is there a portrait in your attic you haven't mentioned?

If only!

I don't understand the second bit!

It's a reference to a novel by Oscar Wilde, in which Dorian Gray, a good looking young man, has his picture painted and wishes that his portrait could age in his place, and let him stay looking forever young.
It hasn't escaped my notice that you and I look many more years apart in age than we actually are, and I took my car driving test within 10 weeks of my 17th birthday.......in 1970.

Got it!

Don't be too harsh A, It's all down to my diet of virgin placentas

BTW, I failed Literature miserably!

[QBee]

Oh, right - I had assumed that it was teaching four children to drive that had kept you young.....

[ClassiChimi]

Thanks chaps, I can tell you the last two hours have been horrific, I did module 1 and 2 all today. I'm knackered,,,,,
Passed both so I'm about to insure my bike
Peter since 2009 you have a hazard avoidance test, 50kmh then jink between two cones,,, I did it at 62 Kmh, the guy new I could ride, thank god cos I made a few errors on the road! What a relief, put myself under huge pressure to pass, I was so focused, you'd think I was testing ejector seats
Anyway that's bloody over with.
Ok so I'm taking car back to Dom next week for a fettle, it still won't be fully mapped so he's asked me to keep the revs low until the roads mended.
The cars still starting stopping and going pretty well and all gauges are steady so I'm really pleased with it,
Can't really say much more until I have a proper map!
It's going to be faster that's for sure.

[phazed]

ClassiChimi said:

Peter since 2009 you have a hazard avoidance test, 50kmh then jink between two cones,,,

I know, just playing with you

My daughters 18 year old boyfriend just lost his license and has to retake his bike test.6 points and you're out if aged up to 18.

Strike 1, wheelying in central London.
Strike 2, lending your bike to a numpty friend who didn't have a license!

[Richard 858]

Congratulations Alun, very well done....particularly at your age

[phazed]

Richard 858 said:

Congratulations Alun, very well done....particularly at your age

Oh yes, forgot that, congrats

[MPoxon]

ClassiChimi said:

Do it Matt, with your engine and sorted car and especially as you like to rev her on track knowing what the fuelling is upto at those extremes is a no brainier really especially if your keeping and developing your car as you go along.

finite throttle control is a must when putting the power down, Cux sort of just chucks loads of fuel at it, this the tiniest of throttle position change and the engine responds accordingly,,,, very fine tune indeed.

I'm saying all this and I've only just got it back.... Time will be the test,,, not just this year but can my MBE go say 15 years because my Cux did!

Logic says it will, the wirings got to be better, the Ecu software should operate without fault, hopefully the sensors work well over time and the trigger wheel stays true.

All I know right now is, it's no longer a Tvr, I have a totally different feeling about the car, it's an amazing Tvr, I believe it's going to run,,,,,and properly, I ain't fearing a poxy coil going down,,,,,, I grew up around wreck motorbikes, non of them ever working properly, coil,,,, always at the top of the list when they had no spark,,, it's a bug bare to see it in my engine bay,,,,

Well now it's gone and I'm not looking back.

I am hoping to get mine done February next year, I have the money saved up so as long as nothing goes wrong with the car this year then I should be good to go. I have already had the car mapped by TVR Power and Mark Adams a few years ago so I know the fuelling is good. What I would like to sort out is the ignition side of things and I do not fancy a piggy back ECU to add spark to the 14CUX fuelling. I have already had two breakdowns relating to issues with the wiring loom so I am keen to replace with new. Long term I would also like the JE ITB setup that Ian has on his Griff and the 14CUX will not run those as the car needs to be mapped on throttle angle and not MAF.

Another reason for wanting a new ECU is my MPG problems, I know you don't buy a TVR for fuel economy but I am sure there is something up with mine as I very rarely see anymore than 20MPG even on a run. I used to get 300 miles to a tank even with a bit of spirited driving thrown in but now I end up searching for fuel around 150-180 miles. I know I have modded mine but the engine is still completely standard, only a few bolt on bits which should affect it that badly. Have you noticed any difference in MPG with your MBE?

Here is my chart from Power, I would be interested to compare with yours once you have it setup on the rolling road.

[Richard 858]

Latest on mine, bespoke forged pistons supplied by John Eales & slightly re-machined by Dom today (don't ask me the details as I don't have any more info yet, I'm happy to leave it in their combined hands). Step 1 on the way back, now starting to head in the right direction

Edited by Richard 858 on Friday 21st August 16:25

[QBee]

Matt, are those readings at the wheels, or converted to at the flywheel? If the latter, they look low for a five litre.

[MPoxon]

QBee said:

Matt, are those readings at the wheels, or converted to at the flywheel? If the latter, they look low for a five litre.

At the wheels Anthony, it is around 300BHP and 360 torques on a mobile Dyno Dynamics dyno like at the Growl.

[MPoxon]

Richard 858 said:

Latest on mine, bespoke forged pistons supplied by John Eales & slightly re-machined by Dom today (don't ask me the details as I don't have any more info yet, I'm happy to leave in their combined hands). Step 1 on the way back, now starting to head in the right direction

Sounds exciting, what are you having done to yours Richard? Feel free to point me to a thread if there is one.

[ClassiChimi]

Don't get me wrong,,, my shoulder has been hurting since Monday, I won't ride that often or that fast.
Kids Peter,,, hold on a mo,,, I lived on the back wheel at that age it's easy when your young.

The best thing this week was nothing to do with the test? Riding Mallery,,,,, I watched Barry Sheene threre when I was about ten years of age, blowing Phil Read away, I was hooked,,,,,,
I never really thought I'd blast down the main straight and counter steer through Gerrards, not that fast but it really felt good. Countersteer,,,, that's bonkers that is,, go right but turn left,,,,,, takes bottle to even try it. My bikes really slow compared to the Suzuki which is a very good thing. Warp speed comes to mind. Modern bikes are flipping good to ride, mine with my shoulder might be all wrong but I'm not aiming on riding far,,,,, only round the TT course a few times that's my aim, not stupid fast but just to sweep through some of those famous corners and towns. It's one I've always wanted to tick off.

I've been riding all week,,, I'm beat up. I'm looking at my bike and thinking should I just sell it now before I scratch it and buy a bungalow instead :big laugh:
Nope in a bout another half hour I'll have insured it and let's let the noise begin. It's serviced, polished and tightened up, I need a few local test rides to see if anything works loose!

[Richard 858]

No thread as yet Matt, just borrowing some space on this one (if that's ok Alun). I started off just wanting an MBE ECU system that would work well with my supercharger conversion with the ability to cope with touring, sprinting/track days and some general fun. I had more or less decided to go for forged pistons as a belt & braces approach but realised that all was not well with combustion/engine breathing before taking my car to Dom. The long & the shrt of it is that the Lucas system will work with a supercharger but not really do it justice and is subject to too much inconsistency in ignition. I originally set out to prove that the Lucas system would work with an SC and was a bit more stubborn than I should have been (you were right all along Gary ) however it did work ok for 15 months and about 2,500 miles, including a trip to Le Mans & back!
Anyway, back to the question...after several conversations with Dom at TVR Power/Powers Performance I am now having (deep breath) bespoke forged pistons, new top hat liners, new camshaft, valves & guides, baffled sump, vernier cam chain set, new inner wing & bulkhead heatshield, probably some other internals I've missed and a superior version of the MBE to suit my requirements. Oh, and a wallet flush!!!
I'll post again with further developments.

[Sardonicus]

Congrats Alun, feels good don't it? Unfortunately I only like Super Bikes for the road but fear the roads are just to congested and flipping dangerous down south for that game anymore inc early morning jaunts I packed them in circa 2006 but do miss bikes and the fiddling/ modding, I would get into off reading but would want to go ye-are and being a one man band I would jepordise my income if I broke any limbs.

[QBee]

So well done Alun....and I guess you are now insured too.
What time do i get the fish and chips in? I'm only about 60 miles from you....

[Pupp]

ClassiChimi said:

Countersteer,,,, that's bonkers that is,, go right but turn left,,,,,, takes bottle to even try it.

What you twittering on about; how do you think you turn a bike at anything more than a dribble? Not be steering left for going left that's for sure!

Yeah, Mallory is ok I guess

[ClassiChimi]

Great shots there mate, I'd only ever ridden light bikes really, off road mostly!
Yes Anthony all insured so I went for a local ride, came home and checked the bike, everything still tight so went for 74 miles, mega, my Thruxton is pretty fast, at night anyway! I love the riding position and it handles pretty good, sounds outrageous,,,,

Richard you can use this thread as much as you like

Matt, ok I've had the car a week, stutters a bit but we new that already,,even so I've managed 265 miles on a tank off super, cold starts and a 25 mile journey, mixed A roads and duel carriageway and town traffic, loads of roundabouts and about 7 miles of countrylanes tight twisty! So not the best conditions to get good fuel figures but still 265 miles pretty damned impressive. Re your fuel figures Matt,
And I've been experimenting with the throttle, it seems to good to be true :scrathchin: not sure if my milometer is working properly?

Simon you knew all along
For the first time in ages my cars totally happy, feels like I'll never open the bonet again, increadable level of confidence in its manners, I've turned the corner, all that reliability worries,,, by a process of logical conclusion it's simply disappeared.
I love walking towards it, I don't stress over the Ecu/ temp/ fuel ratio, something shorting out or the disi just jiving up the ghost,
I met Peter some three odd years ago to buy some lovely wheels off him and to see his 4.6
He explained what a decent Ecu set up could do, it took me some time to understand why and then sometime longer to raise some funds
In hindsight, he was right and it's the first thing I should have had competed on my car. It's like going from the dark into perfect bright sunshine in one foul swoop.
I don't write this because Dom gives me favours, Mbe Emerald mega squirt or whatever, whichever you look at just consider who's gonna look after it and map it, get all that in order and it doesn't really matter which one you use, it will transform the car, pick it up from the late 1070's and plonk it firmly next to any modern car on the road.

It's a revelation, my forced year off the road was so worth it
God I hope it stays like it

[QBee]

Good job you didn't turn up this evening Alun.
Just got in from 5 hours in A&E in Nottingham.
Daughter's shoulder had come out of joint, and wouldn't go back in without trapping the nerve to fingers 3,4&5.
Took all that time for the nitrous to work enough to relax the shoulder enough to get the ruddy thing back in properly.
So Derek isn't the only one with a nitrous habit.......

[ChimpOnGas]

MPoxon said:

Another reason for wanting a new ECU is my MPG problems, I know you don't buy a TVR for fuel economy but I am sure there is something up with mine as I very rarely see anymore than 20MPG even on a run. I used to get 300 miles to a tank even with a bit of spirited driving thrown in but now I end up searching for fuel around 150-180 miles. I know I have modded mine but the engine is still completely standard, only a few bolt on bits which should affect it that badly. Have you noticed any difference in MPG with your MBE?

Fuel economy just as much as power increases are a measure of engine efficiency, don't be ashamed of opening the fuel economy debate or afraid of people who will come over all macho and deride you for looking for better economy from your car on the grounds that TVRs and fuel economy shouldn't be discussed in the same sentence.

I don't know the fuel economy difference between the 4.0 litre and the 5.0 litre but I can conclusively confirm what happens to the petrol fuel economy when you move a 4.0 litre Chimera from the 14CUX & distributor to an after market engine management system with wasted spark and running wide band closed loop.

I have religiously recorded the fuel economy on my car before and after I went Canems and over an extensive period, the results are conclusive, the economy has improved by 13% at a steady 80mph cruise and by 10% overall.

Based on these figures if you're currently getting 20mpg from your tuned 5.0 litre you can expect at least 22mpg when you add a well mapped engine management system, this will also give you roughly 25 miles more range out of a full tank which is more useful than you might think. Its my belief that the vast majority of these improvements come from being able to run more advance than the old distributor can give.

The next advantage being the wide band closed loop I run, now before anyone tells me the 14CUX also runs closed loop I do know that, but I'm very sure the wide band setup I have is better than the narrow band 14CUX closed loop system if for no other reason than because I stay in closed loop longer.

I've also experimented with lean burn which was a bit of a blind ally to be honest, nailing the light load small throttle opening cruise AFRs between 15.5 to an absolute ceiling of 16:1 is as lean as you want to go. I've proved you can run the Rover V8 at 17:1 or leaner with no issues but there's nothing gained or lost in doing so, and as soon as you get to 18:1 the economy actually falls way.

With the spark table nailed, wide band closed loop set with a cruise target of 15.7:1 and with decent plugs, ignition leads and no plug extenders I'm seeing a genuine 31.4mpg from my Canems equipped 4.0 litre Chimaera that makes a healthy 250hp which I'm very happy with considering its had no cylinder head work other than what TVR Power gave a 4.0HC in 1996 (read nothing).

Along with the many other undisputed improvements you can expect when upgrading to an aftermarket engine management system one of the biggest benefits is you can have a "Cake & Eat It" map that not only delivers best power and drivability everywhere but also allows you to ensure best fuel economy too.

But it's important to remember an internal combustion engine is just a pump, increase the size of the pump or increase the number of cylinders doing the pumping and it'll inevitably use more fuel.

This is why these days all the big car makers are going with smaller engines with less cylinders often with turbochargers to try and get the power back up to something respectable without impacting too much on the economy gains. Or in the case of the new 6.3 litre Corvette a V8 that shuts down half it's cylinders when your light load cruising to turn itself into into a 3.0 litre (ish) V4.

Other ways to improve your fuel economy are to increase your compression ratio, reduce the weight of the vehicle, or improve it's aerodynamics. Lets be honest here whatever fuel & spark management system/s you have the old Rover V8 is never going to be what you'd call an efficient engine, but we are lucky in that our cars are very light already.

To my mind the genuine 31.4mpg I'm seeing is nothing short of astonishing given the engine I'm working with, and its long been my belief the only way to improve upon this figure is to burn a cheaper fuel. To that end LPG is your only real & practical option, however you will inevitably burn more of it because the calorific value of LPG (by volume) is 15% lower than petrol.

But if I burn LPG at 25.7mpg rather than the 31.4mpg I get at the same cruise speed on petrol, because LPG is so much cheaper to buy I'm actually getting the petrol cost equivalent of 46.3mpg which turns the car from a thirsty expensive to fuel toy you only use occasionally, into something I can just jump into to enjoy whenever the mood takes me without giving a second thought to fuel costs.

Indeed a journey in my TVR on gas is cheaper than the same journey in my wife's 1.4 litre four cylinder Nissan Micra and pretty much exactly the same as my Toyota Prius company car.

That's great, but only if the car still drives and excites like a TVR should, which it does. And don't forget you could always just use the money you would spend on an LPG conversion to buy the more expensive petrol in the first place, so it only really makes sense for people that either do big miles or are interested in experimenting with things like me.

Saying that your 2mpg improvement isn't going to pay for your new petrol only aftermarket engine management system in a hurry either, but the additional benefits such systems give are in my opinion worth every single penny.

Enjoy the..

1. Better reliability

2. Better drivability

3. The slightly better economy & range

And very much in that order