Various running problems - what to try next?

[ChimpOnGas]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Why are you even still wasting your time with those dreadful and clearly shot B7ECS?

Because the new plugs haven't arrived yet!

Be patient, you're completely wasting your time and proving nothing, those old plugs only belong in one place - THE BIN!

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I was interested to know whether Blitz was right when he said that the fouling is due to the misfire, so I thought I'd take a look, and the fact that they've cleaned up a bit lends weight to what he said. I'd like to fix the problem, but I'd also like to learn by studying the symptoms.

Total waste of time, follow my instructions:

Step 1: Lob those feked old B7ECS in the bin and never fit them again

Step 2: Fit your lovely new NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs

Step 3: Buy an AEM wide band kit for £150 and start looking at true factual data

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

Rest assured, there's a set of BPR6EIX on its way to me, and they will be fitted as soon as free-time allows.

Good, nice to see people are listening, QBee followed my lead when I presented the NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs on these pages back in 2012 and after I'd been testing them for over a year previously.

Looking at his many positive comments since he's never looked back, and I'm sure you'll find the same.

Others are now ditching the dreadful problematic extenders since I proved some time ago quality double heat insulation makes them completely unnecessary.

Like I say, nice to see people are finally listening

[carbon14]

Hi there,
Having experienced a quite similar pattern of misfires on my griff 2 years ago I feel I shall just drop here what was the cause, as it was a really silly simple thing and I wish no one to lose so much time (and some money too) as I did until I found out (shame on me...).
On the way from the lambdas to the ECU there are connectors (cylinder types) and in my case one (there are in total 3 of them) was "oxydated" (sorry my english is poor), I just had to clean it properly, plug it again (firmly) and the whole crazy (like a rodeo horse) behavior disappeared....
All the best,
C14

[ChimpOnGas]

carbon14 said:

Hi there,
Having experienced a quite similar pattern of misfires on my griff 2 years ago I feel I shall just drop here what was the cause, as it was a really silly simple thing and I wish no one to lose so much time (and some money too) as I did until I found out (shame on me...).
On the way from the lambdas to the ECU there are connectors (cylinder types) and in my case one (there are in total 3 of them) was "oxydated" (sorry my english is poor), I just had to clean it properly, plug it again (firmly) and the whole crazy (like a rodeo horse) behavior disappeared....
All the best,
C14

Good contribution, easy to check and easy to resolve if you have the same corroded connectors as carbon14.

Thanks carbon14, it's all too easy for people to overlook the simple things when they're fixing such problems.

PS all my spark plug and plug extender comments still stand, but a great additional and simple thing to check there

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

ChimpOnGas said:

Step 1: Lob those feked old B7ECS in the bin and never fit them again

That would be a slightly silly thing to do before the new plugs have actually arrived. I think the engine will run even worse with no plugs in at all!

And by the way, my existing plugs aren't shot - they're merely fouled. They would clean up perfectly if I could be arsed, and there's a decent chance they wouldn't foul up again now that I've solved the misfire.

ChimpOnGas said:

Step 2: Fit your lovely new NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs

That will be a tremendously difficult challenge while the said plugs are somewhere in a courier's delivery network!

ChimpOnGas said:

Step 3: Buy an AEM wide band kit for £150 and start looking at true factual data

What, spend yet another £150 when I appear to have already solved the problem by removing the extenders? Nah.

What I might do is invest further money on other parts that might be at risk of failing on an 80,000 mile car, such as a pair of lambdas and maybe an air mass sensor. Not cheap parts, but at least they'll probably buy me improved reliability for another 5-10 years - and I'll have more spares.

[Discopotatoes]

i got rid of my extenders when going turbo'ed just fitted grp socks to protect the silicone leads, also tried different heat plugs and found bpr7es to be perfect,the 8s where fouling like mad.
i use 6's in my range rover with lpg and at about a £ each from halfrauds its a no brainer

[Discopotatoes]

i got rid of my extenders when going turbo'ed just fitted grp socks to protect the silicone leads, also tried different heat plugs and found bpr7es to be perfect,the 8s where fouling like mad.
i use 6's in my range rover with lpg and at about a £ each from halfrauds its a no brainer

[blitzracing]

ChimpOnGas said:

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Why are you even still wasting your time with those dreadful and clearly shot B7ECS?

Because the new plugs haven't arrived yet!

Be patient, you're completely wasting your time and proving nothing, those old plugs only belong in one place - THE BIN!

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I was interested to know whether Blitz was right when he said that the fouling is due to the misfire, so I thought I'd take a look, and the fact that they've cleaned up a bit lends weight to what he said. I'd like to fix the problem, but I'd also like to learn by studying the symptoms.

Total waste of time, follow my instructions:

Step 1: Lob those feked old B7ECS in the bin and never fit them again

Step 2: Fit your lovely new NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs

Step 3: Buy an AEM wide band kit for £150 and start looking at true factual data

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

Rest assured, there's a set of BPR6EIX on its way to me, and they will be fitted as soon as free-time allows.

Good, nice to see people are listening, QBee followed my lead when I presented the NGK BPR6EIX iridium plugs on these pages back in 2012 and after I'd been testing them for over a year previously.

Looking at his many positive comments since he's never looked back, and I'm sure you'll find the same.

Others are now ditching the dreadful problematic extenders since I proved some time ago quality double heat insulation makes them completely unnecessary.

Like I say, nice to see people are finally listening

Im going to have to have a little laugh if £60 worth of new plugs soot up or misfire then and a set of knackered plugs is not the root of all evil. Problem is here we have not got any facts- just lots of guesswork and throwing parts at it. We dont know what the HT voltages are doing, we dont know if the ECU is in limp home mode, we dont know what the fuel trim values are doing or AFM output, so you throw money at the issue until you get lucky. Im sure a new set of plugs will help things but could mask the issue if its not the plugs at fault in the first place.

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 15th September 12:58

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

blitzracing said:

Im going to have to have a little laugh if £60 worth of new plugs soot up or misfire then and a set of knackered plugs is not the root of all evil. Problem is here we have not got any facts- just lots of guesswork and throwing parts at it. We dont know what the HT voltages are doing, we dont know if the ECU is in limp home mode, we dont know what the fuel trim values are doing or AFM output, so you throw money at the issue until you get lucky. Im sure a new set of plugs will help things but could mask the issue if its not the plugs at fault in the first place.

The way I'm looking at this is that most of the ignition components are probably due for a routine replacement anyway, and by swapping them out I'm (a) giving myself the experience and know-how to be able to do it at the roadside should I ever need to, and (b) giving myself a useful kitbag of spares to keep in the boot. I also have a new rotor arm and distributor cap on the way to complete the ignition refresh.

I'm pretty sure the ECU isn't in any kind of limp mode, judging from the way it gallops away from a standing start now that the misfire is gone.

As for the plugs, well they're quite badly fouled - although the evidence of the number 4 plug cleaning itself up a bit during just a short period of driving without the misfire seems to support your assertion that the fouling is caused by the misfire. If I were to go on a long motorway journey, or better still find some quiet roads* to give the engine a real workout, I reckon those plugs might well clean themselves up completely. I disagree with ChimpOnGas when he says that my plugs are shot; I don't think there's much wrong with them apart from some temporary fouling (although they are near the end of their service lives, as evidenced by the gaps).

By deleting the plug extenders I appear to have fixed the misfire; it will be interesting to see whether the new plugs give any additional benefit. I can't really drive the car for any appreciable distance at the moment because the ends of the HT leads have little or no protection from the exhaust manifolds. But once my 'socks' have arrived I can give it a more thorough test.

Up to a point, I don't mind throwing some money at the TVR and fitting new parts to see what happens - it's all a learning process for me. All in I've probably only spent about £200 so far, and that's not too bad.

* alas, quiet roads don't really exist in Surrey

[FlipFlopGriff]

If you put the extenders back on one by one you should find the rogue.
I've been testing different ECU's and chips but you cant get a good view on what is happening on a short journey as you need to give it a good test in various conditions. I've actually enjoyed putting some miles on the car (when its running OK of course).
FFG

[QBee]

FlipFlopGriff said:

If you put the extenders back on one by one you should find the rogue.
I've been testing different ECU's and chips but you cant get a good view on what is happening on a short journey as you need to give it a good test in various conditions. I've actually enjoyed putting some miles on the car (when its running OK of course).
FFG

If you spend £10 on a digital infra-red thermometer, or 2p on a cable tie, you can do this test - the misfiring cylinder's exhaust manifold, about 2 inches from the cylinder head will be about 100 degrees cooler than the good ones. The cable tie will melt on a good one, not on a wrong 'un. If you decide to invest in a thermometer, be sure to get one that goes up to 450 degrees+, as manifold temps can easily be over 400 degrees and they aren't any more expensive than the 300 degree ones.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Handheld-Digital-LCD-Tem...

[carsy]

I find something better than a cable tie when chasing a missfire is a syringe filled with water. Drop some water onto the manifolds, the hot firing ones the water will just sizzle and bounce off. The miss firing one the water will just lie on the manifold.

[FlipFlopGriff]

QBee said:

If you spend £10 on a digital infra-red thermometer, or 2p on a cable tie, you can do this test - the misfiring cylinder's exhaust manifold, about 2 inches from the cylinder head will be about 100 degrees cooler than the good ones. The cable tie will melt on a good one, not on a wrong 'un. If you decide to invest in a thermometer, be sure to get one that goes up to 450 degrees+, as manifold temps can easily be over 400 degrees and they aren't any more expensive than the 300 degree ones.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Handheld-Digital-LCD-Tem...

I've got one and the high cylinders are reading lower, and I've no extenders no. Dizzy cap and rotor arm to swap next.
FFG

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

New plugs and socks now fitted!

Quick test drive this evening. Lots of tedious idling in traffic queues, which is quite a good test. Always pulled away smoothly and keenly.

Is the idle a tiny smidgen smoother? Maybe, but not sure. It's very marginal, and I'm rather glad it hasn't completely lost its slightly bobbly idle - it gives the engine an impatient quality which I like.

It's impossible to tell whether the different plug type has improved things, partly because I've replaced old plugs that were shortly due for replacement with minty fresh ones - so one would expect the engine to be a little smoother, and it possibly is.

One thing I'm sure of: removing the plug extenders has cured the misfire. All the old plugs had cleaned themselves up quite a lot - both electrodes and the porcelain were much greyer, although the black soot persisted around the lip of the plug.

I still have a rotor arm and distributor cap which have now arrived, but they'll have to wait until I can be arsed - maybe at the weekend.

Many thanks for everyone's advice - it's all very much appreciated.

I'm very much inclined to agree with Chimp's view that it's worth periodically replacing all the ignition components - perhaps every 30k or 5 years. It has only cost about £200 for the leads, amp, coil, rotor arm, cap and plugs - which really isn't much in the scheme of owning a car like this.

[ChimpOnGas]

blitzracing said:

Im going to have to have a little laugh if £60 worth of new plugs soot up or misfire then and a set of knackered plugs is not the root of all evil.

I think you've misunderstood Ritz Bracing, irrespective of the unquestionable unsuitability of the B7ECS the point is when plugs go through a very rich period as shown by the OP they need to be disposed of and replaced with new.

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

One thing I'm sure of: removing the plug extenders has cured the misfire.

That's a given, dreadful things, just be careful as what I found was the socks aren't always enough on their own to fully protect the HT leads.

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I'm very much inclined to agree with Chimp's view that it's worth periodically replacing all the ignition components - perhaps every 30k or 5 years. It has only cost about £200 for the leads, amp, coil, rotor arm, cap and plugs - which really isn't much in the scheme of owning a car like this.

Do consider the AEM wide band lambda kit, its the only real way to see inside your combustion chamber in real time & under all all conditions. The KV tester Fritz Lacing is flogging could actually be a useful bit of kit, if a bit amateurish. But personally I'd see if you can find someone with a proper professional old school Sun Tester machine or Krypton Tuner.

I trained on these old dinosaurs and for cars like ours they can still be a very useful diagnostic tool, but you will need a old grey hair who knows how to use it if it's going to be much more than a workshop ornament. Don't bother looking for a USB port, but you will get an oscilloscope, KV testing facilities, dwell, coil testing and a host of other features that would completely befuddle most modern mechanics.

The other simple diagnostic tool that is absolutely invaluable is a simple test meter, it can tell you a huge amount on whats going on with your ignition system but again it's only as good as the operator's level of knowledge on how to use it.

However I'm confident even without all of this you're problems are in the past

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

ChimpOnGas said:

just be careful as what I found was the socks aren't always enough on their own to fully protect the HT leads.

Yes, I've got some woven heat shield material; I'm planning to cut it into strips and wrap it around the ends of the leads inside the socks as extra protection. Another job for the weekend.


Edited to add: I suppose for the sake of completeness I should refill the electrical system with OE Lucas smoke. I haven't actually seen any escaping, but you never know...

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 18th September 09:04

[ChimpOnGas]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

ChimpOnGas said:

just be careful as what I found was the socks aren't always enough on their own to fully protect the HT leads.

Yes, I've got some woven heat shield material; I'm planning to cut it into strips and wrap it around the ends of the leads inside the socks as extra protection. Another job for the weekend.

Sounds like an Egyptian wrapping a mummy

Why not just follow my lead, copy what I've proven to work and sleeve the plug end & lead under the sock with Pro-Boot Guard Sleeve?

I've been destruction testing my twin skin system for well over a year now with no issues whatsoever, whereas my earlier attempts with just socks (especially the cheap fiberglass ones) all ended in failure.

The important bit to understand is you not only need the sock, but you absolutely must have something underneath it, the even more important element is that it's absolutely essential your protection goes a good 11" up the lead extending a further 3" past the upper end of the 8" DEI Titanium Protect-A-Boot.

Here's the process I showed everyone back in August 2014:

http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Without the Pro-Boot Guard Sleeve under the socks you will eventually burn your leads, with it the leads are 100% protected and you can finally ditch the dreadful and problematic extenders with total confidence.

I also found not all heat protective socks are created equal, the fiberglass type are very much the poor cousin to DEI Titanium Protect-A-Boots and are often not long enough too. The DEI Titanium Protect-A-Boots themselves come in 6" or 8" lengths, you definitely need the 8" ones!!!

My advise is spend a bit more and do the job properly by using the very best products you can, at the end of the day while this approach isn't cheap... it is permanent!

And if you still feel the above is too expensive, just remember you can easily pay over £100 for a set of 8 awful plug extenders.

Even if those extenders were only 10p each I still wouldn't fit them, they are absolutely the weakest link in a chain of marginal ignition components that are forced to work in a very punishing environment.

[FlipFlopGriff]

I bought these instead:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230789047534?_trksid=p20...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370271184751?_trksid=p20...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331364623376?_trksid=p20...
The lava boots are big enough to fit over an existing lead but the fire braid is only 3/8 inch diameter internally so was OK on the leads I bought as you have to cut them and add the dizzy end so easy to get the braid on before you put the ends on. Be impossible to get on an existing lead - they do 5/8, 3/4, 1 inch and the biggest 1 1/4 inch.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Vulcan-Fire-Sleeve...
FFG

[ChimpOnGas]

This stuff comes from China so it'll probably take a couple of weeks to turn up, but it looks to be the exact same material.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-8-inch-Silicone-jacket...

Order eight feet of it to give you 8x12" lengths.

At just £13.28 for the 8' you need it looks like an incredible bargain, if you try and order it appears you'll need to place two orders of 4' as 5' seems to be the maximum you can buy in one go

You can also buy the same material from Torques, the UK people that supply anodized ally fuel pump bracket and similar bits and bobs.

They offer it by the meter so ideally you'll be needing 2.5 meters to make just over 8', but obviously you're forced to take three meters.

Available in 10mm ID...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torques-Silicone-Coated-...

Or 25mm ID...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torques-Silicone-Coated-...

Torques are a reputable UK company and will deliver in days not weeks like the Chinese supplier, but you'll pay for this privilege compared with the super cheap Chinese supplier.

Personally I'd give the Chinese stuff a go as it all the same material and it's probably all made in China anyway.

Cheap as chips too!

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Saturday 19th September 11:26

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Well, on Friday I drove it to work and it was running brilliantly - possibly better than it has ever run. Drove it at lunchtime and ditto.

But then when I started it to drive home I could immediately tell it was misfiring as soon as the engine was running, and it drove like an absolute pig - stuttering and misfiring really badly. It did improve very slowly, and by the time I'd got home it was almost back to how it had been earlier in the day.

What on earth could have caused it to change so dramatically when it was just sitting in the office car park for a few hours? Well, I do remember being in a meeting that afternoon and we could hardly hear ourselves over the rain drumming on the roof, so I'm suspecting water ingress. It's possible that I may have failed to get the rubber sheaths of the HT leads properly slid down over the body of the plugs - I found that the socks made it harder to feel what you're doing when fitting the leads to the plugs, and I'm wondering whether I may have slid the sock down over one or more of the plugs without sliding the rubber sheath as well.

The engine was too hot to check at the time, and I was busy with other things yesterday, so today I will check, clean the bodies of the plugs and refit the HT leads more carefully. I think that is the most likely explanation. I may have a tube of dielectric grease somewhere, so I'll consider putting a smear around the porcelain body of the the plugs.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 20th September 07:54

[QBee]

If mine is left out in heavy rain it runs on a few cylinders for the first few miles until the engine gets hot enough to evaporate all the damp off the electrics.
A few weeks ago I was returning 40 miles to home. Three miles from home the heavens opened, and the car was down to about 5 cylinders by the time I was home.

I would draw no conclusions until you have done the same on a dry day......so not tomorrow if the BBC weather departmenthave their timings right!