Tremec TR-6060 Gearbox

[ChimpOnGas]

Right Chaps,

It's no secret I have lot of time for the boys at Lloyds, I value their opinion as they drive a lot of TVRs. What they say about 'Ol Gasbag' is the Helix clutch really spoils the wonderfully refined dual fuel machine we've created and I'm inclined to agree.

I'll also add that 'Ol Gasbag's' gear change isn't the best either which seems to get worse after you've driven the car for three hours or so. I put this down to some heat soak expansion and galling of that rather amateurish linkage TVR imposed on Chims & Griffs before they moved onto the far better S10 tail housing as used on the Speed Six T cars.

Yesterday I completed a 350 mile round trip and one super long and very boring meeting, on the way home I got stuck on the M6 in a nasty stop start traffic snarl up that ultimately left me feeling a bit frazzled. 'Ol Gasbag' was running so well, the new closed loop throttle control was a revelation of refinement in the traffic jam hell, but that Heix clutch just seemed to get heavier and heavier and the engagement of gears more sticky and resistant than ever

It had been long day and I guess I was getting tired, my left leg was certainly feeling the strain, so it got me thinking about fitting a lighter AP clutch and the S10 T5 tail housing again.

But then it struck me

Why don't I use this opportunity to not only lighten the clutch and improve the gear shift, but to add a sixth gear too?

Then it dawned on me I could sell my very healthy and well looked after T5 gearbox with TVR bellhousing to offset some of the cost

With a number of clear benefits within one modification and a way to make it cheaper too the idea started looke like absolute genius

So I've decided to be sensible (if you can ever describe modifying TVRs as sensible) I need to put my turbo dreams on the back burner for 12 months and use the funds to fit a Tremec TR-6060 Gearbox.

I was discussing the idea down in Warminster a while back with my friends at Lloyd Specialist Developments and they said they'd love to do the swap on 'Ol Gasbag', perhaps they can iron out the development on my car and offer a "drive in drive out" upgrade to others in the TVR community that want a six speed gearbox in their Chimaera or Griffith?

Lloyd Specialist Developments are very familiar with the Tremec TR-6060 as they put one in a Mk2 Jag mounted on the back of the modern Supercharged Jag V8 they'd dropped in it.

Some time ago I sat in that lovely Jag and went through the box, it was soooo nice. Clack, clack as you swapped from cog to cog the shift light yet offered super positive engagement of each gear, it really was lovely and direct and ultimately such a joy to use it made me grin like a Cheshire cat.

I'm keen to move on from TVRs Heath Robinson gear linkage and I really really need a lighter clutch too, add in some more refined and economical cruising and any thought of a turbo gets put on hold in preference of something that will ultimately make the biggest improvement to the way my car drives.

phazed said:

A 6 speed box should be my next option as well.

I have so much torque it'll pull an 8 speed box……...

Exactly Peter.

If I feel 'Ol Gasbag' could pull that sixth gear with it's 250hp & 260 torques I can only think it would be absolutely essential in your beast.

But for me there are four clear benefits to doing this mod and they all stack up to make this the best upgrade by far.

1. A far superior gear change

2. The perfect opportunity to ditch my heavy Helix clutch and fit something lighter with a better bite point and more progressive take up

3. A small economy improvement when cruising in sixth

4. A more refined car when cruising on the motorway without sacrificing acceleration in the lower five ratios

That's a no-brainer as they say

[gacksen]

dont see the point in the tremec.

if you need better milage get a longer 5th gear in the T5. better milage is a point
personally i just refill the tank. if there is 5 more liters going in i dont care as it
is a fun car. currently i am running a CR box with a long 5th gear and i can tell you if youre
brave enough you can get the car to a speed that will scare you. also
on longer trips 5th gear will lower the revs to around 2500 at around 120kmh.
so you can banter along quite nicely. Box had been rebuilt at redman racing and
is not missing a beat.

as for the clutch have an AP unit in and it is a joy to drive.

the biggest improvement for your car will be the torque once the turbo kicks
in and presses you in the seat. of course more shifting in a 6 speed box
can be nice too but more horses and torque will give you more enjoyment on the long run.

get the turbos and don´t waste your time for a gearbox you dont need

Edited by gacksen on Tuesday 29th September 10:50

[ChimpOnGas]

gacksen said:

get the turbos and don´t waste your time for a gearbox you dont need

Thanks for your comments and I do take your points, the bottom line is what I definitely need is:

1. A lighter clutch

2. A better shifting box

Now I guess I can achieve all that by fitting an AP clutch and an S10 tail housing and it'll be a lot cheaper than fitting big old 6060 box, I could even add that taller 5th ratio to my T5 too.

But then when you look at the project and factor in the resale price of my T5 & TVR bellhousing Im very tempted just to bite the bullet and get the extra cog the 6060 offers.

I haven't fully studied the ratios on offer yet but I believe there are essentially two options, and I need the higher ration one?

Right now with no forced induction and over 65mph in 5th 'Ol Gasbag' still picks up her petticoats and surges forward in a rather rewarding way, I really wouldn't want to lose that by fitting a taller 5th. To be truthful what I feel I really want is the same box with the same nicely spaced five ratios, but with the option of sixth gear for those moments where a super refined 80/85mph cruising gate would be lovely.

I appreciate the economy benefits will be small, but it would still be nice to squeeze and extra mpg or two out of 'Ol Gasbag' when I'm touring France ect. After all we've pretty much reached the end of our LPG system developments now so the only way to better what we've already achieved with fuel economy is to lower the RPMs on the motorway.

All this means the Tremec TR-6060 is the only viable option that firmly ticks all my boxes (no punn intended)

[QBee]

My clutch is an AP 5 litre one.
I have arthritis in my left foot, so had the clutch lightened by 40% by Engineer 1949.
He basically inserted an MGB brake servo into the clutch piping.

95% perfect, only downside is it takes a pump or two on cold start up to get the vacuum going in the servo.
Only a nuisance if you are in the hobbit of leaving the car parked in gear, and hence starting your car in gear with your foot on the clutch.

[eff eff]

I changed from a T5 to a TKO 600 5 speed when the LS3 was fitted, we never could get the linkage to work, the shift was clunky and stiff and the long 5th was too long. Ian at Sportmotive persuaded me to go for a TR 6060 and an LS7 clutch, what a difference Ian described it as "a gear change like a rifle bolt" and it is just that so I reckon go for the TR 6060

[450Nick]

gacksen said:

dont see the point in the tremec.

if you need better milage get a longer 5th gear in the T5. better milage is a point
personally i just refill the tank. if there is 5 more liters going in i dont care as it
is a fun car. currently i am running a CR box with a long 5th gear and i can tell you if youre
brave enough you can get the car to a speed that will scare you. also
on longer trips 5th gear will lower the revs to around 2500 at around 120kmh.
so you can banter along quite nicely. Box had been rebuilt at redman racing and
is not missing a beat.

as for the clutch have an AP unit in and it is a joy to drive.

the biggest improvement for your car will be the torque once the turbo kicks
in and presses you in the seat. of course more shifting in a 6 speed box
can be nice too but more horses and torque will give you more enjoyment on the long run.

get the turbos and don´t waste your time for a gearbox you dont need

Edited by gacksen on Tuesday 29th September 10:50

I'd say you don't really need to either... I have the S10 housing and modified gearchange along with an AP clutch running supercharger power and I have a fantastic gear change, light clutch which never feels sticky or anything else than easy to use, and it holds the power with no problem. The only thing it doesn't have is a 6th gear, but I'm not too bothered about that anyway.

I agree with gacksen - save your money and buy some turbos

[eff eff]

It depends on how much torque you plan to put through the box, Termec's web site rates the T5 as "good for up to 300lbs/ft." The TR 6060 is rated at over 500lbs/ft so I guess it's horses for courses

[phazed]

Id go for the 6 speed for reasons quoted by Dave and most importantly the additional strength.

At 460 torques I reckon my box is on borrowed time using the car for TDs,sprints and dragging and a lighter clutch would be more than welcome!

When fitted with an uprated diff and uprated drive shafts, I too will consider FI.

[ChimpOnGas]

eff eff said:

I changed from a T5 to a TKO 600 5 speed when the LS3 was fitted, we never could get the linkage to work, the shift was clunky and stiff and the long 5th was too long. Ian at Sportmotive persuaded me to go for a TR 6060 and an LS7 clutch, what a difference Ian described it as "a gear change like a rifle bolt" and it is just that so I reckon go for the TR 6060

I'm sure the TKO 600 could be made to work, after all I believe that's whats in Mac's lovely turbo Chimaera and to me it felt very nice indeed when I tried the clutch and went through a gear or two on Saturday.

I'm also sure we could solve all my key frustrations with my current setup for reasonable cost by fitting an AP clutch and adding the S10 tail housing to my T5. I already knew the answers but it's why I started the following post...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=149...

The thing is I wouldn't want to pull the trigger on improving my T5 shift and lightening my clutch only to find six months down the road I wish I'd just gone the whole hog and fitted the 6060 with it's "nice to have" sixth gear.

Regret can be frustrating, I sure as hell regret fitting that heavy old Helix, I have become used to it but after doing some clutch weight testing at the Neil Garner day courtesy of the super friendly big horsepower crowd it was immediately obvious my Helix is dreadful by comparison.

I need to add up the costs of sorting my existing but disappointing T5 shift and heavy clutch vs going the extra mile and fitting the 6060. I'm sure even after selling my T5 and TVR bellhousing it'll still work out quite a bit more expensive to go the 6060 rout, but at least if I do choose the six speed box option I'll never have that feeling of regret I'll likely suffer if I stay with five cogs.

If I'm honest with myself everything I've ever tried to do with the car so far has been about making it nicer to drive, more refined, more practical and way more economical. I've taken this sensible approach to modifying my TVR because I love driving it, the way I see it anything that means I get to drive it more is always going to be top of the list and will always take preference to those very tempting power adders we all love to talk about.

For me driving a TVR is an event, it's an experience that fills your senses and delivers the unique feeling of direct connection with the machine lost in all modern cars, even modern performance cars.

I want to relish the tactile pleasures of weighty but direct steering, the joy of flicking the car through bends while you feel the road beneath you, the pleasure of clack clack gear changes and a light yet progressive feeling of a well matched clutch.

If I have all that, if all the controls in the car connect me better to the experience, then I'm achieving my goals. I can still blast past most things in 'Ol Gasbag', she will still surge up to an easy 140 and keep pulling on.

So let the forced induction wait until I have the car just as I want it, because that to me just makes better sense.

Now all that's settled, lets talk twin plate vs single plate clutches

[Quinny]

I had the 6060 in my LS griff.... The gear change was sublime, snick, snick, snick. Through the box...

In fact everyone whom drove the car, (all fellow Griff owners) the first comment they made was WOW, that gearbox is awesome......

[Boosted LS1]

The t56's etc are good boxes but they're flipping heavy, about9 stone iirc. They'd make a very good box for cruising which is why I bought mine I eventually sold it and bought a TH400 for it's strength. I'll have to think about the cruising aspect at a later date.

[450Nick]

phazed said:

Id go for the 6 speed for reasons quoted by Dave and most importantly the additional strength.

At 460 torques I reckon my box is on borrowed time using the car for TDs,sprints and dragging and a lighter clutch would be more than welcome!

When fitted with an uprated diff and uprated drive shafts, I too will consider FI.

I wouldn't be so sure - Mine was just taken apart to have the S10 tail added and it was "like new" despite running over 400 torques for a number of years now.

[ChimpOnGas]

450Nick said:

phazed said:

Id go for the 6 speed for reasons quoted by Dave and most importantly the additional strength.

At 460 torques I reckon my box is on borrowed time using the car for TDs,sprints and dragging and a lighter clutch would be more than welcome!

When fitted with an uprated diff and uprated drive shafts, I too will consider FI.

I wouldn't be so sure - Mine was just taken apart to have the S10 tail added and it was "like new" despite running over 400 torques for a number of years now.

My objectives are well documented and not really about strength, as I've already said I'm sure I could get away with just fitting the S10 tail housing and a lighter clutch like the AP unit.

That will certainly do the trick, and I may still do just that as it's going to work out a lot lot cheaper.

But only the 6060 will give me that sixth gear...end of!

And I really would love all the listed benefits with the addition of lower cruising RPMs, the real question is how much can it be done for?

Can anyone recommend the best way to buy a 6060 in the UK?

[ChimpOnGas]

Quinny said:

I had the 6060 in my LS griff.... The gear change was sublime, snick, snick, snick. Through the box...

In fact everyone whom drove the car, (all fellow Griff owners) the first comment they made was WOW, that gearbox is awesome......

Hi Quinny, that's exactly what I want mate.

Can you tell me what clutch was in it?

Two things I didn't realise were:

1. Twin plate clutches dont have concentric cush springs

2. A twin plate clutch with a sprung hub can be had, but will likely cost upwards of £1,600!!!

My chosen clutch needs to be feather light in traffic this time, no more bicep building Helix weight for me, but it must also have zero snatching or rattles on take up.

So I think a decent single plate with concentric cush springs would suit my needs best?

Eventually I will top out at 375hp and 400 torques with forced induction as that's really the the limit of my LPG system, to my mind this will produce a car that's fast enough so I doubt I need an expensive twin plate jobbie anyway.

Your thoughts and experiences on clutches please chaps

[Boosted LS1]

You'll probably go around in circles with this. I tried all sorts and in the end settled for the twin plate Mcleod. It's the best there is or certainly was back then. Has a very nice light progressive pedal and huge amounts of grip. It's a pleasure to use if you get caught in a stop start traffic jam mid summer.

[domV8]

Is there any weight penalty to consider with this modification?

[Quinny]

ChimpOnGas said:

Hi Quinny, that's exactly what I want mate.

Can you tell me what clutch was in it?

Two things I didn't realise were:

1. Twin plate clutches dont have concentric cush springs

2. A twin plate clutch with a sprung hub can be had, but will likely cost upwards of £1,600!!!

My chosen clutch needs to be feather light in traffic this time, no more bicep building Helix weight for me, but it must also have zero snatching or rattles on take up.

So I think a decent single plate with concentric cush springs would suit my needs best?

Eventually I will top out at 375hp and 400 torques with forced induction as that's really the the limit of my LPG system, to my mind this will produce a car that's fast enough so I doubt I need an expensive twin plate jobbie anyway.

Your thoughts and experiences on clutches please chaps

I couldn't tell you what clutch, but Steve SPG would know....
What I can tell you is that it was rated for 600 BHP, it wasn't feather light, but I managed ok with my crappy left leg... In fact I'd say it was a bit lighter than my old Griff 500 but not much in it....

Regarding cruising in 6th....it was brilliant, 6th really was like an overdrive.. 80 MPH at around 1800 RPM...

Put it this way, the LS could easily get 28+ MPG on a nice run, and regularly returned over 25...

[ChimpOnGas]

Boosted LS1 said:

You'll probably go around in circles with this. I tried all sorts and in the end settled for the twin plate Mcleod. It's the best there is or certainly was back then. Has a very nice light progressive pedal and huge amounts of grip. It's a pleasure to use if you get caught in a stop start traffic jam mid summer.

Interesting, the team at Lloyd Specialist Developments told me they had a different experience with that Mk2 Jag. Perhaps its because it was a heavier car but by all accounts the was some chattering and other undesirable traits around town?

At first the 6060 was blamed, but apparently a traditional single plate clutch was dropped in with its typical cush springs to see what happened, and all these unrefined traits completely disappeared.

Like I say pulling way in a 1600kg Jag is a very different thing to a 1100kg sports car, and what someone may accept as nothing in a TVR could well be seen by the owner of a luxury saloon as completely unaceptable.

I don't know the full story so I can't really comment any further.

I don't doubt your research was very thorough Boosted LS1, I also respect your comments as they are clearly based your real world experiences of the Mcleod twin plate in a TVR.

The only other comments I've had on clutches was when I asked Orange Nick (my dad built it) on FaceBook what he thought of his triple plate Super Clutch which I'm damn certain is just a re-branded Quarter Master triple plate from the USA.

Orange Nick (Superchargers are best) simply said it probably wasn't what you'd want around town, which I took as meaning at was a ferocious gabby barsteward

But I stand to be respectfully corrected on this

Any more opinions to add on clutches chaps?

[macdeb]

Hi Dave
Just to add, my TKO 600 conversion cost around £3k with me doing the work and the right box coming up at reasonable cost. That included a McLeod twin plate [rated 800hp]clutch and steel flywheel. You know how light it is. The non-spring plates are only an issue [bit of a rattle] if you labour the car in 5th at or below 1500 revs [why would you, I don't drive like that]. There are two sets of ratios fitted to the TKO600, the one set are near as identical to the T5 and the other has longer 5th [which I think someone commented on] and was not for me. A TKO660 would be nice having the 6th gear and a slick change as Quinney says but as I've huge torque, I shall be changing my diff' over the winter for a 308. If you do change, I'd weigh up costs of modifying existing bellhousing, 'twas what I did.
Keep us posted

Edited by macdeb on Tuesday 29th September 18:34

[macdeb]

ChimpOnGas said:

The only other comments I've had on clutches was when I asked Orange Nick (my dad built it) on FaceBook what he thought of his triple plate Super Clutch which I'm damn certain is just a re-branded Quarter Master triple plate from the USA.

Orange Nick (Superchargers are best) simply said it probably wasn't what you'd want around town, which I took as meaning at was a ferocious gabby barsteward

Phuck! just spat my beer out over the keyboard reading that.