Concentric Clutch Slave

Concentric Clutch Slave

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Discussion

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Thursday 24th March 2016
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Is anyone using a concentric slave on their T5 box? I've got my T5 out at the moment and I'm thinking of giving it a try. Burton do a kit for the cossies which I'm guessing looks like it'll fit.
http://www.burtonpower.com/hydraulic-clutch-cylind...

Retro Ford doing something very similar and they also offer a version with the radiused relase bearing which I think is what I'll probably go for.
http://www.retro-ford.co.uk/shop/content/t5-coswor...

Both of those Ford kits look like they are using Mondeo slave cylinders. RPI are also offering a similar solution but with what looks like a Saab slave. I did enquiry about selling only the slave and mounting adaptor but they weren't keen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Borg-Warner-BW-T5-5-Spee...

I've dropped both Burton and Retro Ford asking if they know any reason why it won't work.

Alexdaredevils

5,697 posts

178 months

Thursday 24th March 2016
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About time someone did! I was going to do the same to mine but changed for a 6 speed

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Thursday 24th March 2016
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I know my brother's LS uses one and its a lot lighter than mine, I quite like the linear feel to it as well. I'm hoping for something similar.

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Thursday 24th March 2016
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I know someone using a T5 with an LS who did this using a Tilton bearing - the bell housing aperture needed opening out some but otherwise relatively straight forward by all accounts

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Thursday 24th March 2016
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I did find some guys using the Tilton kit on kit cars. They use the 61-612 adapter to replace the bearing retainer and the design looks good with the threaded tube.
http://www.competitionsupplies.com/clutches-flywhe...

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Saturday 26th March 2016
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Another possible here, maybe...

http://www.competition-car.co.uk/borg-warner-t5-hy...

I've also got my g/box out currently and am thinking this is a no-brainer whilst it's in bits if a kit can be sourced (that fork and pivot arrangement is horrible). Mini group-buy?

Edited by Pupp on Saturday 26th March 20:06

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Saturday 26th March 2016
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Right - as far as I can see between the Cossie and TVR variants of the T5, the Cossie nose is tad bigger diameter than the receiving aperture on the TVR bellhousing; just needs matching and there seems to be meat enough on either or both sides without compromising the mounting bolt PCD.

Obviously, also needs adequate room behind the clutch cover-plate to accommodate the height of the bearing assembly but doubt that's likely to be a problem. Maybe Retro Ford or RWD would provide a dimensioned drawing?

Edited by Pupp on Sunday 27th March 06:13

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Thursday 31st March 2016
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I quite like the RWD one, I don't really want to replace the front bearing retainer. I like the idea of it fitting over the steel bearing retainer. Depending on your clutch you might need this version if you've got straight clutch fingers. http://www.rwdmotorsport.com/borg-warner-t5-hydrau... I haven't checked the size of the bearing though. My current one is 52mm but as the RWD one needs the guide tube removing theres a good chance the zetec slave is a smaller diameter.

The other option I found was the Reyland one http://www.reyland.co.uk/clutchtransmission/ Heres a better picture


This still uses the steel bearing retainer but does require some machining to it. I'm guessing its shortening or removing the guide tube like the RWD. The Reyland one also looks like it uses the Omega V6 slave, which from the auction below says its got a 35mm bore which would work great with the standard retainer as its 1.37" (34.8mm)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161891841302?_trksid=p20...

At the moment I'm planning on making a similar adaptor and use a Omega slave cylinder, I want to make it so that I can still remove the gearbox without the bellhousing, thats a must. From some of the cossie pictures I've seen its looks like they remove the box and bellhousing together due to the hoses. I'm hoping I can use some sort of retainer bolt to hold the adapter to the retainer that can be released to slide the gearbox out.

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Thursday 31st March 2016
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Retro Ford have very kindly made one of their kits available to mod and evaluate - the retainer is certainly just a mm or two larger in diameter than the TVR bell aperture so that's on its way to Grantura for Mr Reid to adapt and install on my box, which he is presently refurbing (the thing is pretty massively constructed and there is scope for machining). I am hoping that by coming up with suitable flexi lines, it should be just about possible to clamp up through the access hole; if not be able to mount the box with the release already clamped (I am happy to mod the bell aperture if needs be). If the worst case is bell and box installed together, I'll just have to eat more Shredded Wheat!

The round-nose bearing adaptor that Retro Ford use is maybe a mm or two too small ideally in diameter but it is very close indeed to the TVR fulcrum diameter (difficult to measure exactly as the TVR profile is not as pronounced) so maybe not an issue for most clutches (I need to mount mine on a spare flywheel and see how it sits on the fingers when they are in an installed position (the gap closes).

There looks to be more than enough clearance behind the clutch to take the height of the release bearing easily and the Cossie/TVR T5 bearing retention design is apparently the same so the nose covers are compatible in those terms (I have not verified this but no doubt Mr Reid will let me know if not).

The TVR master cylinder bore is certainly too big at 0.7 inch so would undoubtedly over-stroke the CRB slave, the size recommended by RF is 0.625 but, even then, I suspect that will drive the slave more than the 12mm max extension I need for my clutch - I may therefore try a 0.5 to start. Obviously, this necessarily involves pipe termination changes given the TVR oddball thread size but that's just a matter of re-swaging the M/cyl end for a new nut.

If anyone knows a source of 8mm x 1.25 AN 3 line ends (to make up a remote bleed line), that info would be very useful to have please.

Graham

16,368 posts

283 months

Thursday 31st March 2016
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Ive got the John Eales Bell housing in the tuscan ( rv8-t5) and that uses a saab9000 bearing. works really well considering the abuse the drive train gets

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Saturday 2nd April 2016
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Here's a pic showing the new Retro Ford retainer mounted after machining to fit the bell housing, with the bell housing and slave cylinder in place.

Really good news is the compressed height of the assembly with the round-nose adaptor (not in pic) in place is about 5mm more than the original bearing and carrier at its most retracted possible position on the iron retainer, which is no-where near how it sits installed. There's plenty of headroom.

The highest port is the bleed - I think that's going to need a remote line run straight up through the bell; terminating somewhere handy (could even end up near the gearstick for convenience, under the trim).

Big thanks to John Reid for sorting the box so swiftly (motorsport upgrades including 5th snap-ring mods, and rebuild with new bearings). Apparently the gears themselves were all good despite the 134k mileage.

NZ fan

310 posts

133 months

Sunday 3rd April 2016
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recently fitted a new concentric slave into a 2012 Mustang which had a clever means of bleeding the system. there was no bleeder as such but the hydraulic line went in at the top of the slave, to bleed you simply fill the master cylinder then put a vacuum on top of the reservoir which will pull the slave back against its spring and void any air in the process. only had to do it once and it was bled. just a thought?

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Monday 4th April 2016
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That looks really good installed Pupp. If you can get to the three mounting bolts of the slave from the access hole then you can slide the gearbox out without the bell housing. Fiddly, but doen't look impossible. Its not a question of strength to remove the box and bellhousing togehter its theres not enough room on mine, the bellhousing hits the bulkhead before the input shaft is clear of the driveplate.

I think I might of found an adaptor for the bleed.
Earls Adapter

Alexdaredevils

5,697 posts

178 months

Monday 4th April 2016
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Looks nice and smart that Gary

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Monday 4th April 2016
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So have you got to pull the flat bearing off and then use your master to press the radius bearing on?

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Monday 4th April 2016
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Thanks Both (and for the Earls link, will have a squint); the round nose adaptor is effectively a little top-hat profiled ring that gets bonded to the flat bearing surface with Loctite 480 (it all runs in compression the whole time anyway so should not be at risk of going walkies). I clamped the clutch assembly onto a spare flywheel yesterday and the finger 'hole' closed up to 46mm, which is easily in scope of the Retro Ford fulcrum point, so that's good news.

Still a load of working out to do to try and get the slave height right from the off but now have a load of datum points to work from having got the box back and having spent an hour under the car with verniers and a straight edge yesterday.

Suspect it might all be a bit tight to bolt up through the access hole, at least with the box fully home; but perhaps do-able before pushing fully home... once I have reamed the new spigot bush to size and sourced an alignment tool that will do the job, will install the clutch on the flywheel and have a much better idea of how plausible in-situ bolt up is.

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Monday 4th April 2016
quotequote all
That sounds like a clever solution. Burton told me you can't change the bearing without damaging the piston seal so I wondered how they did it. If you get a chance would you mind measuring the rough ID & OD of your new release bearing. I like the idea of using a smaller diameter bearing so you get more leverage on the fingers. I'll bolt my clutch up tonight and check I've got the same 46mm.

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Monday 4th April 2016
quotequote all


Sure - Bearing outer dia of rotating flat face is 58.66; inner dia is 37.76
Overall dia of bearing head is 65.44
Bearing bore dia is 35
Min internal dia of carrier bearing is mounted to (ie max shaft or tube capacity) is 29 approx. (diificult to be sure as too deep for verniers to access

The round nose adaptor is 62 outer dia and 35.6 inner; it has a true half-round profile across its thickness.

The pic is just to show the interference of the fingers with the ring in an unclamped state; obviously its sitting on the inner side but the deflection unclamped will be about the same as it will be in full release deflection so gives a realistic idea. The ring is not centred on the bearing in that pic; the black ring at the bottom of the centre is a secondary seal the slave is fitted with.

BoostedChim

Original Poster:

541 posts

224 months

Tuesday 5th April 2016
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Thanks for that Gary, the radiused nose looks spot on. Do you think you're going to need any of the spacers to bring your slave closer to the clutch?

Pupp

12,205 posts

271 months

Tuesday 5th April 2016
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Hopefully get the spacing need worked out tonight; be too much to hope for it to be spot on without but I'll be disappointed if it is that far away.

Anyone know if the common or garden remote reservoir master cylinders sold by the likes of Merlin et al have the same mounting flange dimensions as our integral types (I know the inlet thread is different but am hoping they will otherwise swap out without too much drama subject to accommodating the reservoir)?