Battery cable size
Discussion
Belle427 said:
The photo i posted shows a cable with brown tape on it, there was a stud on the back of the block on the passenger side that i attached the extra negative to. Its a nightmare to get at with a spanner but with a little bit of patience it went on.
Thats where the Lucas ECU grounds are usually mounted too
Belle427 said:
The photo i posted shows a cable with brown tape on it, there was a stud on the back of the block on the passenger side that i attached the extra negative to. Its a nightmare to get at with a spanner but with a little bit of patience it went on.
Hi Belle427Where did you go with the positive cable, up and over or down below and across?, have you had any problem with that plastic conduit melting? i cant access my old positive at all so i am thinking of leaving it in place and just adding another 25mm cable
Paulprior said:
Hi Belle427
Where did you go with the positive cable, up and over or down below and across?, have you had any problem with that plastic conduit melting? i cant access my old positive at all so i am thinking of leaving it in place and just adding another 25mm cable
Are we talking the same negative only modification ? There is no need to doWhere did you go with the positive cable, up and over or down below and across?, have you had any problem with that plastic conduit melting? i cant access my old positive at all so i am thinking of leaving it in place and just adding another 25mm cable
Anything to the positive big supply to the starter
Paulprior said:
Hi Belle427
Where did you go with the positive cable, up and over or down below and across?, have you had any problem with that plastic conduit melting? i cant access my old positive at all so i am thinking of leaving it in place and just adding another 25mm cable
There isn't enough heat at the rear of the engine to melt cables etc. It follows the line of the ducting to the passenger side and then drops down the chassis to starter area. I have fixed the conduit to the underside of the ducting.Where did you go with the positive cable, up and over or down below and across?, have you had any problem with that plastic conduit melting? i cant access my old positive at all so i am thinking of leaving it in place and just adding another 25mm cable
I decided to change the positive as the Tvr cable is just thrown in and undersized.
Edited by Belle427 on Monday 23 May 06:39
Belle427 said:
I decided to change the positive as the Tvr cable is just thrown in and undersized.
Good call Belle427, anyone who says the ageing and feeble TVR starter cable doesn't need replacing either hasn't had a close look at the light gauge effort TVR gave us, or they have a vested interest in promoting something they sell.Look, the bottom line is the original starter cable TVR used is:
1. Very long (approximately 8ft long!)
2. Of an insufficient gauge for it's length
3. Likely to be anything from 15-23 years old
TVR routed the cable over the bell housing so it lives trapped behind the cylinder heads & hot exhaust manifolds in an area of very little airflow. Its not really hot enough to melt the cable's insulation although this is by no means unheard of, but it is an environment that seems to promote internal corrosion of the cable as its warmed by the engine then cools when you leave the car.
As most people know I removed my starter cable over four years ago.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...
At the time it was some 15 years old and I can assure any doubter it was in a very very poor state, not only was it in a gauge that (in my opinion) is insufficiently thick for the job, my cable was very badly corroded internally.
Whole sections up to 10" long were stiff, cutting open the insulation in these areas revealed this was due to substantial internal corrosion.
Replacement with a new heavier gauge cable was essential and along with the additional earth I fitted from the battery neg terminal to the engine block in the same gauge cable made a huge improvement to the way the car cranked.
But it's important people don't see the above improvements as the be all and end all guaranteed fix for all starting problems, because there's a lot more to it than that.
While it's true TVR never fitted a dedicated starter solenoid relay which was a significant failing as such a relay is very much automotive wiring best practice, it is nowhere near as much as a problem as some will have you believe. The biggest issue on the starter solenoid circuit was the way TVR wired it through the META immobiliser. The truth is its when the overloaded relay inside the META immobiliser on that circuit starts to fail that you begin to suffer most starting issues on these cars, at that point the damage is already done so adding a relay will only have a sticking plaster effect at best.
It comes as no surprise that for years people like Carl Baker who properly understood the mistakes made by TVR made a living out of replacing the poorly wired and failing META systems with a properly installed replacement.
So, solve TVR's META wiring mistakes first, then fit a better starter cable and finish the job off with a heavy gauge earth from the battery neg terminal direct to the engine block and assuming your starter motor is in good health your Chimaera will crank way faster and be massively more reliable.
At this point (but not before) you can add a relay to the starter solenoid circuit, this will certainly help get the full compliment of amps down to the starter motor solenoid and
wired in the correct way will also extend the life of your your ignition switch (sprung position start contacts).
But do not be tempted to skip the META bypass or replacement and just fit a relay, you need to fix the route cause first or all your doing is storing up trouble for the future because the starter solenoid circuit will still be wired through your failing META system and your new relay can't fix that.
The truth is getting these cars to start briskly and reliably isn't rocket science you just need to understand the META wiring mistakes made by TVR and rectify them, replacing the feeble starter cable used by TVR with something of a heavier gauge and adding in that extra direct earth will help massively too.
In summary it's all about a package of solutions/improvements, with the low amp starter solenoid circuit properly sorted (META bypass or replace) you should then turn your attention to the separate high amp battery to starter and earth return circuits.
Its a package of issues... that calls for a package of solutions.
Great stuff
ChimpOnGas said:
Good call Belle427, anyone who says the ageing and feeble TVR starter cable doesn't need replacing either hasn't had a close look at the light gauge effort TVR gave us, or they have a vested interest in promoting something they sell.
Look, the bottom line is the original starter cable TVR used is:
1. Very long (approximately 8ft long!)
2. Of an insufficient gauge for it's length
3. Likely to be anything from 15-23 years old
TVR routed the cable over the bell housing so it lives trapped behind the cylinder heads & hot exhaust manifolds in an area of very little airflow. Its not really hot enough to melt the cable's insulation although this is by no means unheard of, but it is an environment that seems to promote internal corrosion of the cable as its warmed by the engine then cools when you leave the car.
As most people know I removed my starter cable over four years ago.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...
At the time it was some 15 years old and I can assure any doubter it was in a very very poor state, not only was it in a gauge that (in my opinion) is insufficiently thick for the job, my cable was very badly corroded internally.
Whole sections up to 10" long were stiff, cutting open the insulation in these areas revealed this was due to substantial internal corrosion.
Replacement with a new heavier gauge cable was essential and along with the additional earth I fitted from the battery neg terminal to the engine block in the same gauge cable made a huge improvement to the way the car cranked.
But it's important people don't see the above improvements as the be all and end all guaranteed fix for all starting problems, because there's a lot more to it than that.
While it's true TVR never fitted a dedicated starter solenoid relay which was a significant failing as such a relay is very much automotive wiring best practice, it is nowhere near as much as a problem as some will have you believe. The biggest issue on the starter solenoid circuit was the way TVR wired it through the META immobiliser. The truth is its when the overloaded relay inside the META immobiliser on that circuit starts to fail that you begin to suffer most starting issues on these cars, at that point the damage is already done so adding a relay will only have a sticking plaster effect at best.
It comes as no surprise that for years people like Carl Baker who properly understood the mistakes made by TVR made a living out of replacing the poorly wired and failing META systems with a properly installed replacement.
So, solve TVR's META wiring mistakes first, then fit a better starter cable and finish the job off with a heavy gauge earth from the battery neg terminal direct to the engine block and assuming your starter motor is in good health your Chimaera will crank way faster and be massively more reliable.
At this point (but not before) you can add a relay to the starter solenoid circuit, this will certainly help get the full compliment of amps down to the starter motor solenoid and
wired in the correct way will also extend the life of your your ignition switch (sprung position start contacts).
But do not be tempted to skip the META bypass or replacement and just fit a relay, you need to fix the route cause first or all your doing is storing up trouble for the future because the starter solenoid circuit will still be wired through your failing META system and your new relay can't fix that.
The truth is getting these cars to start briskly and reliably isn't rocket science you just need to understand the META wiring mistakes made by TVR and rectify them, replacing the feeble starter cable used by TVR with something of a heavier gauge and adding in that extra direct earth will help massively too.
In summary it's all about a package of solutions/improvements, with the low amp starter solenoid circuit properly sorted (META bypass or replace) you should then turn your attention to the separate high amp battery to starter and earth return circuits.
Its a package of issues... that calls for a package of solutions.
Look, the bottom line is the original starter cable TVR used is:
1. Very long (approximately 8ft long!)
2. Of an insufficient gauge for it's length
3. Likely to be anything from 15-23 years old
TVR routed the cable over the bell housing so it lives trapped behind the cylinder heads & hot exhaust manifolds in an area of very little airflow. Its not really hot enough to melt the cable's insulation although this is by no means unheard of, but it is an environment that seems to promote internal corrosion of the cable as its warmed by the engine then cools when you leave the car.
As most people know I removed my starter cable over four years ago.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...
At the time it was some 15 years old and I can assure any doubter it was in a very very poor state, not only was it in a gauge that (in my opinion) is insufficiently thick for the job, my cable was very badly corroded internally.
Whole sections up to 10" long were stiff, cutting open the insulation in these areas revealed this was due to substantial internal corrosion.
Replacement with a new heavier gauge cable was essential and along with the additional earth I fitted from the battery neg terminal to the engine block in the same gauge cable made a huge improvement to the way the car cranked.
But it's important people don't see the above improvements as the be all and end all guaranteed fix for all starting problems, because there's a lot more to it than that.
While it's true TVR never fitted a dedicated starter solenoid relay which was a significant failing as such a relay is very much automotive wiring best practice, it is nowhere near as much as a problem as some will have you believe. The biggest issue on the starter solenoid circuit was the way TVR wired it through the META immobiliser. The truth is its when the overloaded relay inside the META immobiliser on that circuit starts to fail that you begin to suffer most starting issues on these cars, at that point the damage is already done so adding a relay will only have a sticking plaster effect at best.
It comes as no surprise that for years people like Carl Baker who properly understood the mistakes made by TVR made a living out of replacing the poorly wired and failing META systems with a properly installed replacement.
So, solve TVR's META wiring mistakes first, then fit a better starter cable and finish the job off with a heavy gauge earth from the battery neg terminal direct to the engine block and assuming your starter motor is in good health your Chimaera will crank way faster and be massively more reliable.
At this point (but not before) you can add a relay to the starter solenoid circuit, this will certainly help get the full compliment of amps down to the starter motor solenoid and
wired in the correct way will also extend the life of your your ignition switch (sprung position start contacts).
But do not be tempted to skip the META bypass or replacement and just fit a relay, you need to fix the route cause first or all your doing is storing up trouble for the future because the starter solenoid circuit will still be wired through your failing META system and your new relay can't fix that.
The truth is getting these cars to start briskly and reliably isn't rocket science you just need to understand the META wiring mistakes made by TVR and rectify them, replacing the feeble starter cable used by TVR with something of a heavier gauge and adding in that extra direct earth will help massively too.
In summary it's all about a package of solutions/improvements, with the low amp starter solenoid circuit properly sorted (META bypass or replace) you should then turn your attention to the separate high amp battery to starter and earth return circuits.
Its a package of issues... that calls for a package of solutions.
Hi
Thanks for all the thoughts above.
To correct my initial slow crank speed when hot i have added an extra 35mm2 positive cable, i left the original as i couldnt find a way to remove it, i also added a braided earth strap straight from the battery to the bolt at the back of the block as suggested, tested several times now when hot, great result, the crank speed is as good hot as when cold, no more worries at petrol stations.
I am thinking about the alarm and relay discussion, all the talk is of the relay inside the Meta system being too small to take the current required for the starter solenoid, is it the same for the Foxguard on my car?
Paul
Thanks for all the thoughts above.
To correct my initial slow crank speed when hot i have added an extra 35mm2 positive cable, i left the original as i couldnt find a way to remove it, i also added a braided earth strap straight from the battery to the bolt at the back of the block as suggested, tested several times now when hot, great result, the crank speed is as good hot as when cold, no more worries at petrol stations.
I am thinking about the alarm and relay discussion, all the talk is of the relay inside the Meta system being too small to take the current required for the starter solenoid, is it the same for the Foxguard on my car?
Paul
Paulprior said:
Hi
Thanks for all the thoughts above.
To correct my initial slow crank speed when hot i have added an extra 35mm2 positive cable, i left the original as i couldnt find a way to remove it, i also added a braided earth strap straight from the battery to the bolt at the back of the block as suggested, tested several times now when hot, great result, the crank speed is as good hot as when cold, no more worries at petrol stations.
I am thinking about the alarm and relay discussion, all the talk is of the relay inside the Meta system being too small to take the current required for the starter solenoid, is it the same for the Foxguard on my car?
Paul
That's great news, another slow cranking TVR sorted with the simple addition of a better cable and improved earth Thanks for all the thoughts above.
To correct my initial slow crank speed when hot i have added an extra 35mm2 positive cable, i left the original as i couldnt find a way to remove it, i also added a braided earth strap straight from the battery to the bolt at the back of the block as suggested, tested several times now when hot, great result, the crank speed is as good hot as when cold, no more worries at petrol stations.
I am thinking about the alarm and relay discussion, all the talk is of the relay inside the Meta system being too small to take the current required for the starter solenoid, is it the same for the Foxguard on my car?
Paul
Regarding your immobiliser question the problem originates from the fact TVR never fitted a dedicated relay on the starter solenoid circuit, they just used the relay inside the Meta immobiliser, if you have a Foxguard I'm sure it'll be the same as no Chimaera had a starter solenoid relay.
What you're looking to achieve is simple:
1. Find the starter circuit where exits your Foxguard and goes to your starter solenoid
2. Use this wire to trigger the low amp switching side of a decent quality relay
3. Run a decent gauge cable with an in line fuse direct from your battery positive terminal to one of the two high amp relay terminals
4. Run a length of the same decent gauge cable from the second of the two high amp terminals on your relay to the starter solenoid
5. Run a decent gauge earth cable from the remaining fourth relay terminal directly to the negative terminal on your battery
This way your Foxguard starter solenoid circuit is only triggering the low amp switching side of your new four terminal relay, and the starter solenoid will be receiving a full serving of amps directly from your battery, earthing the relay directly back to the battery completes the high amp circuit.
Like this the circuit running through your Foxguard will now only ever be subject to a very low amp switching load, but be careful, your Foxguard has been taking excessive amp loads for years so it may well have already suffered some internal damage you can't see. Simply adding the relay (hot start kit) years later can't repair any existing damage that may have been caused by there being no relay from new.
Why TVR never wired the car with a proper dedicated starter solenoid relay in the first place is beyond me, it really is basic automotive wiring best practice to do so, fortunately as demonstrated in my above five steps it's a very simple thing to resolve.
Essentially what I've described is the hot start kit, just keep in mind my point about the damage that may have already been inflicted to the little relay buried inside the Meta or Foxguard unit over the years.
I can't stress strongly enough, simply retro fitting the above starter solenoid relay (hot start kit) can not and will not fix any existing damage to the little relay inside your Meta or Foxguard unit, to solve that problem you'll need a replacement security system, or you could simply bypass it altogether and fit a simple hidden switch to serve as your immobiliser.
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