TVR Parts Drop Links

TVR Parts Drop Links

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ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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Sardonicus said:
This is the problem I mentioned earlier Civic short bar Accord wide bar look at the post previously about this its all on here Daz wink

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 22 September 20:15
Damn it, did I get the wrong ones too then Simon? banghead

Not fitted them yet, the Ebay listing definitely says Honda Accord not Honda Civic confused

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131

How hard can this be?


sparkythecat

7,898 posts

254 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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There are some pictures on this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Sardonicus

18,928 posts

220 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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ChimpOnGas said:
Damn it, did I get the wrong ones too then Simon? banghead

Not fitted them yet, the Ebay listing definitely says Honda Accord not Honda Civic confused

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131

How hard can this be?
Dave mine needs the Civic ones but a 2003 Chimaera I worked on had a wider ARB and I fitted Accord circa 2002 on that one some time ago its not much but the Civic links just would not articulate correctly and I could not chance it the guys a customer wink

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
quotequote all
sparkythecat said:
There are some pictures on this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I went with the below from Boosted, he has 1997 car and mine was born in November 1996 so I figures if the Accord ones worked for him I should be OK with them?

I'll try them on the car on Saturday and report back rolleyes

BoostedChim said:
I've just tried a set of Civic drop links on my '97 but the angle didn't look good so I tried a set of Accord and they look spot on. I didn't even need to unbolt the mounting brackets. The Accord link were also a bit longer only a few mm shorter than the orginals.




Edited by BoostedChim on Friday 16th January 10:20

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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RaceTech N/S for reference




SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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Sardonicus said:
This is the problem I mentioned earlier Civic short bar Accord wide bar look at the post previously about this its all on here Daz wink

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 22 September 20:15
How would I know which is a short and long bar ? does this mean the drop links from racetech might not fit ..

Can you give me a link to a set of front links which will fit ?
rolleyes

TV8

3,118 posts

174 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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SILICONEKID345HP said:
Can you give me a link to a set of front links which will fit ?
rolleyes
http://www.leventechnology.co.uk/products/rear-drop-links-griffith-chimaera-and-early-cerbera

sorry couldnt resist!

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
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Is this a wind up ?

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 25th September 2016
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Well Honda Accord drop links fit my Chimaera just fine.

As far as I can see after a trial fit you can install them either way around, although they did seem a little happier with the nylock nuts facing forward like this which is the opposite to how Boosted fitted his confused






Here they are with the ball joints facing forwards.






Actually I'm currently running no roll bars at all yikes, its just a brief test but after a short drive I'm struggling to notice any more roll at all confused

The only real difference I can detect is all the nasty noises have completely gone, I'm now running my newly refurbished 400lb sprung Gaz Gold Pros on the rear and my old original Bilsteins on the front. I've only been for a short drive so far but this brand mismatched coil over combination with a full drop link/ARB delete actually seems the best so far, I'm now super tempted to permanently remove both roll bars and leave the car with its current 400lb Gaz rear & standard Billy front set up.

But the testing continues, after running it for a week or so like this I'll reconnect the front ARB using the Honda Accord drop links, then following another week of testing I'll also connect the rear using the Mk3 Mondeo links.

Finally I'll try my soon to be rebuilt front Gaz Gold pros with various connected & disconnected ARB permutations, if my old Bilstens win out as I think they might I'll buy a set of new ride height adjustable ones from Ben Lang with his Tuscan 2 spring rates and valving and may also end up with no drop links/anti roll bars at all scratchchin

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 25th September 22:34

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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Is it a case of our Tvr's having such a stiff set up (Spring rates) that these little drop links from other cars just can't offer much support.

I very much appreciate your test period, I've been doing without the rear ARB for months now, just havnt got round to taking car off the road as I'd like to re powder coat wishbones etc when I do it.
Maybe subconsciously I'm not that bothered about the rear ARB hence the laziness!

A can't notice much if any difference since I replaced the fronts, the old ones were lknackered and like many things, I thought it was better but a few months down the road I'm not so sure!

I have to stress this is just normal road driving and not at any great speed.
My gut feeling is its fine upto about 100 mph but after that I'm very unsure if the car would remain stable in a corner.

It would be very interesting to test a car with /without ARB's at a track, clock don't lie and the the driver should feel any difference pretty quickly.
Now if that isn't a good reason for a trackday what is hehe

N7GTX

7,825 posts

142 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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I fitted the Accord links as suggested, 2 weeks ago and have now driven it with no issues. Nice easy fit too which is a bonus.
Got them from Euro Car Parts and chose the Lemforder ones as the Q-Drive seemed too cheap. There is a 30% discount (as I write this) if you use the sale code - sale30 - with online ordering for click and collect.
Choose: Honda : Accord : 2001 : 2.0 : petrol

http://www.eurocarparts.com/anti-roll-bar-componen...

Note that they are handed left and right.

Sardonicus

18,928 posts

220 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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N7GTX said:
I fitted the Accord links as suggested, 2 weeks ago and have now driven it with no issues. Nice easy fit too which is a bonus.
Got them from Euro Car Parts and chose the Lemforder ones as the Q-Drive seemed too cheap. There is a 30% discount (as I write this) if you use the sale code - sale30 - with online ordering for click and collect.
Choose: Honda : Accord : 2001 : 2.0 : petrol

http://www.eurocarparts.com/anti-roll-bar-componen...

Note that they are handed left and right.
This ^ or Moog (Federal Mogul) Q Drive, First Line, etc are budget cheapo brands IMO

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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I know every car under the sun uses anti roll bars and there's very good reasons for that, but I have to say my Chimaera corners flat as you like on the road with both bars disconnected. I appreciate this will be a different story on the track, but recently I've started to question why I've been building a track car with rose jointed everything when I don't even track the car?

With no ARBs the suspension immediately felt more compliant and yielding over rough surfaces, I can only assume this is because the suspension is now truly independent and doesn't have a steel bar tying the two wishbones together on each axle?

I did chuck the car about a bit yesterday and on known roads at speed including some bends I know will unsettle the car if all is not well with my suspension, I could honestly feel no change in roll but the car does seem to have gained grip at the front.

If the car was all rolly polly on bends I'd be putting the drop links back on tonight, I now have a full set I know will fit but I've decided to hold off because right now the car genuinely only seems the better for not having both the ARBs connected.

The biggest difference that totally dominates the "no anti roll bars" driving experience is that the suspension is way more quiet and compliant over poor surfaces, and that's compared with how it was when I renewed everything six years ago.

When I find what feels best on the road perhaps I need one track day to push the set up to it's limits of grip in a safe environment, this would at least tell me what the car will do in an extreme situation on the road which would in turn give me more confidence in the cars abilities when I'm pressing on.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 26th September 12:48

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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I'm thinking of removing my front ARB because I'm still getting noises from the front, checked ball joints etc, can't find play,
So by dissconecting the ARB I'll try to isolate it to my suspension bushes/ mountings, I'm only using the car locally so no big deal, I'll,try and add to Dave's comments on here.

I'm really expecting the steering to wander or feel slightly to independent but you never know it might work!

Here's a pic of the car at extreme angles, soft springs so almost bottoming out but the point is,
When you look at the position of the two front wheels,
Firstly the front right even though it's almost fully using up the suspension travel it's actually only about 2 maybe a maximum of 3 inches higher than its normal neutral static position
But that coupled with the left front almost off the ground so extending down adds some serious angles to the equation, what stresses are being applied to the tortion bar and drop links when at these extreme angles and how does it effect handling.

By looking at the picture I'm imagining the right front pushing the bar up and the left front trying to pull it down, opposite forces, trying to twist the bar? Does that make sense, or do I need to look for longer hehe





Thinking about it again,,,
Won't the forces applied to the front right override the left and simply push the ARB up and control the lefts ability to go lower and stay in contact with the road as the ARB is trying to compress the left side?

If the ARB was removed wouldn't the left front actually stay in contact with the road for longer

Regardless of how these forces are being applied, the drop links need to be stong or what!

Questions questions,, hehe






ITVRI

196 posts

181 months

Monday 26th September 2016
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I really enjoy COG's and others regular discussions on improvements.
Don't want to be a kill joy but if you removed your ARB and was involved in an accident would your insurance have a reason not to pay out? Looking at google the removal of an ARB seems to be a not uncommon idea from various car forums.
I think the only true way to test if the absence or benifit of a ARB Is timed laps on a track or ask someone who races a TVR if they run with or without ARBs.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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ITVRI said:
I really enjoy COG's and others regular discussions on improvements.
Don't want to be a kill joy but if you removed your ARB and was involved in an accident would your insurance have a reason not to pay out? Looking at google the removal of an ARB seems to be a not uncommon idea from various car forums.
I think the only true way to test if the absence or benifit of a ARB Is timed laps on a track or ask someone who races a TVR if they run with or without ARBs.
Wise words smile


The r/h wheel and lower wishbone is being pushed upwards, the ARB is connected to the lower wishbone and has no actual forces applied to it other than when it's forced to move upwards in line with the r/h wishbone, it's actually the l/h front wheel that's opposing the upward force applied to the R/h side,
as the ARB moves upwards on the r/h side because the suspension has been compressed under load ( ie a corner ) the left hand side is trying to push against the suspension travel and the added energy of the L/h side unloading adds to that energy further, this has to be the energy that transmits through the ARB from left to right that gives the r/h it's resistance against body roll,

It's pretty clear in the picture above that when the suspension is overloaded the ARB and drop links are not going to be of much use!

So my interpretation of how the ARB works is opposing forces helping to create rigidity and torsion.

In this instance the car loads up on the right hand side, the front ARB rotates upwards at the same time because it has too,
But because it's connected to the left hand side which is actually trying to go in the opposite direction the drop link on the left side receives suspension Spring unload and hard springs would add to that energy by the way, this acts against the forces applied to the right side hense offering ARB resistance on that side.


andy43

9,552 posts

253 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
The only real difference I can detect is all the nasty noises have completely gone, I'm now running my newly refurbished 400lb sprung Gaz Gold Pros on the rear and my old original Bilsteins on the front. I've only been for a short drive so far but this brand mismatched coil over combination with a full drop link/ARB delete actually seems the best so far, I'm now super tempted to permanently remove both roll bars and leave the car with its current 400lb Gaz rear & standard Billy front set up.
That's interesting, and possibly confirms Ben's revised spring rates with a single rate stiffened rear Tuscan spring combined with standard fronts does work, even without changing the shock specs.
Following the letter of the (insurance) law as above, in theory you'd need to notify your insurance company every time you alter something safety-critical - could get expensive if they charge for every change to the policy!

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Wednesday 28th September 2016
quotequote all
I'm not suggesting for a minute people should run out and remove their anti roll bars, but I am determined to try lots of different permeations and approach the whole exercise with an open mind.

As it stands if you want my honest real world report on what happens when you drive a Chimaera on the road without anti roll bars... it's like this:

You'll enjoy...
  • Sharper turn-in
  • An increase in front end traction
  • Significantly less fidgety behaviour over poor surfaces
  • More confidence inspiring handling and so can be driven quicker on potholed back roads
  • Overall a more comfortable ride
  • Nasty suspension noises eliminated
  • All this with no discernible increase in body roll
I stand by my earlier point that independent suspension is nothing of the sort when you have a lateral torsion bar connecting the left & right hand lower wishbones on the same axle line.

In it's favour an anti roll bar will limit roll but that's not all it's doing, the inevitable negative consequence of tying the left & right suspension together with a dirty great steel bar is that what ever road surface imperfection the left or right side suspension is trying to manage is also directly transmitted to the other side on that axle line, this is the same undesirable situation we see with a beam axle.

So why are anti roll bars so common? Well firstly although we see ARBs fitted to both road cars & race cars we need to separate the two.

Road cars use ARBs for two reasons:

1. To retain a softly sprung comfortable ride in a straight line while still retaining acceptable roll control when cornering

2. To tune in under steer, as this is far safer on the limit handling characteristic than the other option which is over steer

Race cars on the other hand are often so stiffly sprung they could mostly do without using anti roll bars to limit roll, but they do still use them to allow tuning of on the limit handling characteristics.

So what if you had a fairly stiffly sprung TVR that actually doesn't roll much on the road, a TVR you only ever use on the road anyway, in such cases why wouldn't you just delete the anti roll bars altogether?

All that happens is you'll get to enjoy the well known benefits of having truly independent suspension.





ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Wednesday 28th September 2016
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^^^^^ this.
Because road car suspension is so much softer and offers more movement it makes sense to use anti roll bars to control body roll
And yes if you have a road going car with firm springs the ARB becomes more redundant.

You can create an adjustable hard/soft ARB by simply re drilling the ARB holes that take the drop links closer to its pivot point wink

N7GTX

7,825 posts

142 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
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Today fitted the Mondeo rear anti-roll link rods, removing the old fashioned ones. There is a slight offset when fitting the new type ones as said previously in this thread. Either bend the anti-roll bar a little to get the correct alignment or live with it as it is. I'm living with it and will see how it goes.
I got these from Euro Car Parts, again chose the Lemforder over the cheap Q Drive ones.

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Ford_Mondeo_2.0_...

Edited by N7GTX on Friday 30th September 15:18