TVR Parts Drop Links

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

I don't know if it's just me but I go from thinking my adjustables are terrible to thinking there not bad at all, is it a mood thing.

I definitely agree with this Alun, the first 50 miles or so on the GGPs never bothered me but they would either go off after that or I would progressively get more and more tiered with the ride. Saying that they're fine on the motorway, actually I had no issues with them at all when covering big miles on smooth roads its just I don't spend my entire time on the motorway. As soon as I turn off the motorway especially onto a 'B' road the ride becomes poor.

ClassiChimi said:

Maybe your Gaz were so shot anything would feel better

Absolutely Alun, my rear GGPs were indeed totally shot but my above observations and experiences come right from the day I fitted the brand new set. For the first six months the front end had an annoying habit of nodding, this calmed down as the springs settled but they were never what I'd call a comfortable damper offering a compliant ride on 'B' roads or poor surfaces.

ClassiChimi said:

As this is so fundamental to the enjoyment of the car will you just have another drive before swapping to the Gaz again Dave, just to be sure your happy with the Bilstein's and then try the Gaz.

Absolutely I will Alun, I'm going to Kop Hill this Sunday with the boys which will give the Billies another good workout, following this there'll be a lot of swapping back and forth of the different brands of coil overs over the next month or so including trialling ARB connected & disconnected to explore every single permeation. Last Sunday I took the car out with the old Billies back on and no anti roll bar simply to see what happened, I only did about 10 gentle miles so it didn't really tell me anything. I then did 100 miles yesterday but only because my wife had accidentally gone to work with my Toyota keys, if she hadn't taken those keys I would have taken the company car instead and never would have found out just how compliant my old billies really are. I actually ended up with so much confidence in the way the car rode & handled I started having some back road fun in a way that would have had the car banging and crashing about on the GGPs... even when they were brand new.

ClassiChimi said:

It's just some days I think mine are good then other days not so, your pleasant surprise today might not feel quite so tomorrow kind of thing!

Again I tend to agree, our moods change and the way we drive will change with our mood. The other thing that changes is the type of roads we're driving on that day, a lot of motorway work when I'm feeling chilled out and the GGPs are just fine, but if I'm in the mood for some back road scratching those GGPs can be way too harsh.

No surprise really when you look at how the GGP solid spacer rose joint rigidly connects them to the TVR chassis....



Compare this with the big rubber bush you get on the Bilsteins.



Damper sophistication aside my experience with drop links is a solid rose joint can never offer the comfort/compliance of a vibration and shock isolating rubber bush. If the Billies also offer better damping as I suspect they do, their rubber bushed connection with the chassis combined with some modern road type drop links should deliver three clear ride quality improvements over the GGPs & Leven rose jointed drop links I've been running for the last few years.

Rose joints really have no place on a road car, great for race car but my Chimaera is not a race car, I don't even do track days with it so why I chose to rose joint everything is beyond me?

I now need to put the type of suspension on my TVR that actually suits what I want from my car, rather than trying to turn it into a race car only to discover track focussed suspension will never give me the nice compliant on road ride quality I seek.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 16th September 08:45

[ChimpOnGas]

900T-R said:

Bilsteins were only on early cars - TVR switched to HBE in 1995 and back to Bilstein in 2004/5, well after the end of the Chimaera production run. So people who say 'their Bilsteins were awful' might well have run on HBE bicycle pumps that were fitted to the vast majority of 'modern' TVRs?

My car is a late 1996 facelift Chimaera and definitely had Bilsteins fitted, here they are back on the car last Sunday after having a six year lay up.



In addition to going the full hog and buying new biddies Ben Lang is also offering me a rebuild option on my originals, he can only do this if I genuinely have Bilstiens which I clearly do. This rebuild service can include a revalve to suit the proposed revised spring rates and the cutting of circlip grooves to give me the ride height adjustment.

According to Ben this rebuild option is available on all yellow bodied Bilstiens, what he can't do is rebuild the green body units which he told me were subject to a recall, Ben made no mention of HBE but I can qualify this point with him when we next speak.

I take Simon's point on the standard original Chimaera Bilsteins but what I'm being offered here is what Ben refers to TVR Mk4 specification, he's then proposing we take it one step further by building a set of these TVR Mk4 specification coil overs in a Chim/Griff damper body using Tuscan s springs and matched valving.

If I go the full hog I end up with the MK4 Chim/Griff Bilstein mono-tube/upside-down gas pressure technology dampers in brand new bodies complete with the correct road friendly rubber bushes and quality Eibach springs all custom built to Tuscan S specification.

Ben Lang worked at TVR and talking with him he was clearly involved in suspension development work alongside the Bilstein engineers TVR eventually contracted. Ben explained his time came after the Chimaera/Griffith years, while the Chim was still just in production when he joined all the development work had been done so he didn't actually work on the model. He seems to have been recruited to develop the suspension on the Tuscan S and Sagaris and he's suggesting the things learned during this development work can be retro installed into the bodies of the Chimaera/Griff Bilstein units.

The way see it is, if my basic unmodified 20 year old Bilsteins that have been sat in a box for the last 6 years can work so well then a set of brand new MK4 Chim/Griff Bilstein mono-tube/upside-down gas pressure technology dampers built to Tuscan S specification combined with the better drop link design we've been discussing here could give me a fantastic handling TVR that also has the compliant ride I'm looking for?

Best of all the proposed price even if I go with the "All New Bodies" option is a good chunk of money cheaper than Powers Performance Nitron comfort kit, they would actually sit somewhere right between the price of Nitrons and GGPs which makes a set of Ben's custom built road friendly but Tuscan S spec Bilsteins very tempting indeed.

If they work out as good as it sounds these Bilstiens being offered to me have to represent the best value going, all you really lose is the on car adjustability of the GGPs, Nitrons ect ect, but as I don't track the car I really don't think I need this feature. What I need is coil overs that just work and give me a nice ride and handling.

Surely if the Bilstiens are set up correctly from the outset I should never need to crawl under the car to wind an adjuster up & down in an attempt to get them just right, I spent ages doing this with my GGPs only to eventually admit to myself 13 clicks all around was the best compromise setting and I was best off just leaving them there.

I'm living & learning..

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Do we have an aswer on front snd rear drop links ?

I think we can safely say the Honda Accord 1998-03 links work on the front as a few guys on the forum seem to have fitted them now with no issues. I'm certain the TVR specialist havent had something specially made, the TVR market is just way too small for that. They've just found something that fits from another car and are selling them as special uprated TVR links at a premium.

On the rears you can use Mondeo estate links as Phased has but there may be some modification required? In the next day or so I should also be able to confirm if Nissan 200sx fronts serve as TVR Chimaera rears.

The spec & dimensions of these Nissan links seems to suggest they'll be a straight fit but there's a world of difference between Googling something online and actually holding the physical link in your hand and offering it up to the car.

My trial Nissan link is currently waiting for me to collect at the post office so I'll be picking it up later today.

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

ounds good Dave, and OE quality/reliability to boot

From Ben Lang - Former Chief Chassis Engineer - TVR Design & Development.

In late 2004, following a nine year gap the decision was taken to reinstate Bilstein as OE damper supplier for all TVR models. Bilstein had traditionally supplied units for Griffith and Chimaera, but since 1995 the bulk of production units had been supplied by HBE. This encompassed Cerbera, Tuscan, Tamora and T350 models.

The motivation for the change was that Bilstein could offer better quality and more durable units backed up by assistance and input in the development of ride and handling. The first car to benefit from this was the Sagaris, followed in the summer of 2005 by the Tuscan 2 and Tuscan convertible. The level of development carried out on these cars far exceeded what had been carried out on previous models. The positive results achieved are evident in some of the road tests published in the motoring press. One of the main improvements, especially noticeable on Tuscan models, is the improvement in ride quality.

In addition to the development of the OE units, TVR was also obliged to develop spares units for older models originally equipped with HBE dampers, without any change of springs or anti-roll bars. Again, a marked improvement in ride and handling quality was experienced when compared with the original parts.




Chimpongas says.. "I'm going back to Bilsteins built specifically for 'Ol Gasbag' to the Mk2 Tuscan specification"

By the way Ben's credentials seem pretty watertight to me as following his time at TVR working on their final models (Mk2 Tuscan and the mighty Sagaris) he now works as Chief Chassis Engineer for The Ariel Motor Company, so I guess that means he works with Intrax these days more than Bilstein as he did in his TVR days but he clearly still retains his Bilstein contacts.

It seems Ben is developing the Ariel Atom by day and building new Bilstein suspension for some old LPG powered TVR by night

I've been very clear about the weight distribution difference between 'Ol Gasbag' and a standard Chimaera but this didn't seem to phase Ben one bit, actually I got the feeling he was relishing the challenge and he agreed that Chims and Griffs could do with a bit more rearward weight bias. I've also been clear I want a compliant ride combined with great handling, Ben seemed confident I'll get exactly that and all for a very reasonable real world price.

Here's hoping I finally get the fine handling and compliant ride I seek from my Chimaera....

[ChimpOnGas]

Andav469 said:

I went through this exact scenario 18 months ago, my car had completed 36k miles on the original billies, they weren't leaking and worked well, however, as I had replaced/upgraded all other joints and bushes, I wanted to do the same with the suspension.
I looked at all options and as my car is used on the road, I opted for the mk4 billies from Ben Lang, once fitted, the handling of my car is night and day different, so I suspect my old billies were way past their best, even though they weren't leaking.

The 3 height adjustability is a bonus too

Fantastic feedback and just what I'm looking for.

Mk4 Billies from Ben Lang are my next TVR purchase, on paper they seem like they may offer the perfect balance between handling, ride quality and affordability for Chimaera owners who predominantly use their car on the road as I do?

Only time will tell if I've chosen well..

[ChimpOnGas]

Ok, so here's the answer we've all been waiting for...



Basically the distance between the lower bush saddle (washer) and the centre line of the ball joint is 60mm, so 10mm less that the 70mm measured on the Leven links.

I'm keen to understand the impacts of this 10mm, an anti roll bar is essentially a laterally mounted torsion bar that ties both lower wishbones together so one can act on the other.

The ARB bushes allow the ARB to rotate within them and as long as both links are the same length there will be no uneven loading, but in theory a shorter drop link would reduce the leverage on the ARB.

If I'm right and a shorter drop link offers less of a mechanical advantage over the anti roll bar (torsion bar) using the shorter link will be much the safe as fitting a stiffer ARB. In which case the 10mm shorter Nissan 200sx will deliver less rear roll than the Leven ones I removed?

I'll now put my theory out to the floor for debate..

[ChimpOnGas]

s p a c e m a n said:

Is that bolt long enough to go through the roll bar? Looks considerably shorter than the leven one...

Other than that I'm in

Basically the whole thing is roughly 10mm shorter, so if the distance between lower bush saddle (washer) and the centreline of the ball joint is also 10mm less once you've tightened the top nut to trap the two bushes between the wishbone bracket the 10mm overall reduction in length is of zero consequence.

What does change however it the distance from the ARB eyelet to which your bolting the ball joint end of the 200sx drop link and wishbone plate, this measurement is dictated by the distance between the lower bush saddle (washer) plus the thickness of the lower bush and the centre of the ball joint.

Increasing this critical distance will either increase the mechanical advantage (leverage) the wishbone has over the ARB (torsion bar), or decrease it if you shorten the distance ie instaled the 10mm shorter Nissan 200sx drop links I'm presenting here.

Reducing the mechanical advantage (leverage) the wishbone has over the ARB (torsion bar) will make it harder to twist, this in theory is exactly the same as sticking with standard length drop links but fitting a heavier (larger diameter) anti roll bar.

If you look as drop links fitted to race cars they are nearly always adjustable, just like a turnbuckle their length can be extended or reduced to alter the leverage the wishbone has over the anti roll bar. On a tight wet track you might choose to make the link longer because this will reduce the effects the ARB has and so aiding traction, conversely on a dry track you would shorten the drop link to reduce roll.

As such (if I'm correct) fitting these 10mm shorter Nissan 200sx drop links would reduce roll at the rear, this might actually be advantageous on 'Ol Gasbag' because she caries a touch more weight at the rear so can be prone to slight under steer in extreme circumstances.

In many ways the important element is the relationship between the front and rear, reducing roll at the rear is much the same as softening the front and softening the front roll in relation to the rear gives the front tyres better contact with the road surface and for longer, thus reducing my undesirable under steer characteristic.


Well that's how I see it, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[ChimpOnGas]

s p a c e m a n said:

I don't think the length will effect the roll bar because the force from the link doesn't work in that way, it pushes straight down on the end of the bar, it doesn't lever it.

Look at the shape of an ARB, particularly the distance from the ends to the body line of the main bar and you'll soon see there is indeed leverage at play, also keep in mind an ARB is a torsion bar so it's spring effect is gained through twisting it.



Further opportunity to alter the amount of mechanical advantage the wishbone has over the twisting the ARB is offered by the drop link, increasing the length of the drop link reduces the leverage and decreasing the length would increase it.

This is why race cars have adjustable drop links, if drop link length had no influence they wouldn't make adjustable ones

Personally I think these 10mm shorter Nissan 200sx drop links I've found would stiffen things up and reduce roll all at the rear, this may or may not be desirable of course depending on many variables, weight distribution differences being just one.

I'm not promoting these links, I'm merely measuring and presenting them for discussion.

[ChimpOnGas]

s p a c e m a n said:

I'm under the impression though that the leverage pressure would only be altered by changing the length of the part of the bar that you've marked 'leverage'. The length on the drop link applying pressure to the end of the bar shouldn't change the force applied to it, unless I'm missing something... which I normally am

(I'm buying a pair anyway, they're a good find as far as I'm concerned)

Thanks, I'll be fitting mine too, the distance between the wishbone and the centre of the ball joint can easily be adjusted anyway just my altering the bush thickness.

Longer or shorter links will change the angle of the section/s of the ARB I've labelled leverage when at rest, this angle will have an impact on the amount of available mechanical advantage because the distance from the end of the lever to the fulcrum point changes with angle. If you've ever shifted your body position when levering something with a crow bar to get more power all you're doing is naturally changing the angle of pull/stroke. Another way to test this is when tightening a nut with a ratchet, when you get to the end of your stroke and the angle is reduced you'll find you have very little power over turning the nut, so you naturally ratchet back to take another stroke at which point you also find you immediately get more power.

Finally if angle had no impact on mechanical advantage we wouldn't need ignition timing, you need the full force of the expanding combustion gasses to act on the crown of the piston precisely when the con rod is at the optimum angle to make best use of them, this is how we achieve maximum power from an engine and will typically be around 90° after top dead centre (ATDC) on the power stroke of using the example of a single cylinder 4 stroke engine. The truth is 90°ATDC is where the combustion gas has the most leverage but not necessarily the most instantaneous angular velocity, hopefully however it helps you see angle and leverage are indeed unavoidably connected.

In the case of the ARB this angle will always be equal both ends as long as the ride height from side to side and the length of both drop links are identical, but longer and shorter drop links still change the angle and that will alter the amount of mechanical advantage the wishbone has over the resistance in the ARB.

The length of the drop link is especially important if you're altering the car's ride height, if you're not altering the ride height then you should really retain the length of the standard drop link. If you lower the car you are shortening the gap between the point the drop link attaches to the wishbone and the point it attaches to the ARB so you'd need to compensate by adjusting the length of the drop link.

When the car is stationary and the ride height is the same on both sides then theoretically there isn't any preload on the ARB, it only becomes loaded when the ride height differs from one side to the other which is typically under cornering loads.

The key reasons race cars use adjustable ARB links are.

1. To 100% ensure that there's no pre-load on the bar when the car is sat at it's natural ride height (no roll)

2. To ensure the bar doesn't foul on the body/chassis if the vehicle is lowered

3. To make sure you don't run out of joint angle when running different ride heights/suspension travel

4. To maintain the optimum angle of the of the section/s of the ARB I've labelled leverage

The truth is I doubt 10mm will make much difference on our cars but there's a reason why TVR chose the drop link length they did and why this length is exactly the same on the Leven links I was using. Of course by simply adding a 10mm thick rubber washer under the lower bush you can solve the problem in a stroke, but it may mean you run out of thread at the top unless you then reduce the top bush thickness by the same 10mm.

This in essence is exactly what I plan to do

[ChimpOnGas]

Leverage is leverage, and angles is angles.

Degrees of crank rotation is the same as con rod angle... and that will always influence the point of maximum leverage, just the same as the level of droop on the handle on your bathroom door will effect how hard you need to lean on it next time you need a pish.

The same rules of physics apply, because rules is rules

The fact is lengthening or shortening your drop links will change the angle of the lever part of the ARB, and that will alter the mechanical advantage the wishbone will have over the torsional resistance of the ARB.

Go for a ride on your bicycle and tell me I'm wrong, your leg muscles will soon tell you everything you need to know about leverage and how the angle of a lever alters mechanical advantage. Now try riding the same bicycle in the same gear on the same flat road but this time without shoes, your leg is now only 1cm shorter without a shoe but assuming the seat post position remains unaltered (just like shortening a drop link) you'll immediately discover how angle alters leverage.

My point is shortening or lengthening your drop links will have an effect, shortening your drop links as in the case of the Nissan 200sx ones will provide less mechanical advantage the wishbone has over over the ARB (torsion bar), and that is more or less the same as fitting a stronger/larger diameter ARB. I say more or less because the amount of available travel will be reduced too, the real question is how will this translate to what you feel & experience on the road?

You can do all the calculations you like, but only real world experimentation will reveal the answer to that question which is why I plan just such experiments.The thing is if you sit down and work out all the possible permeations there are lots, so it would take a very patient man to find the best combination, and you may just find the difference between best & worse is so small it almost becomes a pointless exercise.

But I will...on behalf of the PistonHeaads massive, have a crack at it

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Are they genuine or after market drop links ? seen them on the Net from £10 to over £65

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hardrace-Front-Drop-Link...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/nissan-200sx-180sx-front...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Nissan-200SX-S13-1-8...

I wouldn't waste your money on those expensive uprated ones, just buy the well respected German Febi Bilstein brand for £12.41 each delivered to your door.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391329037606

My guess is even these quality brand drop links will have a relatively short life, but I also wouldn't mind betting they will last quite a bit longer than the Triumph TR6 vulcanised rubber in a ball socket type TVR fitted to the car from new.

These sealed ball joint links should prove quieter, but the real advantage of using Honda & Nissan links is unlike the originals, Leven or the so called "uprated" TVR parts specialist ones... is you can afford to replace them much more frequently.

A pair of Febi Bilstein Nissaan 200sx links is £24.82 and a pair of Febi Bilstein Honda Accord links only cost £18.72, so a full set of quality new type sealed ball joint drop links will set you back £43.54 where the same offering from Racetech Direct they're calling "uprated" is going to be close on £140.00 once you've added the VAT and carriage.

Basically you get the same thing and save yourself £100, this is the same £100 Racetech enjoys as profit, it's a nice margin I would kill for in my game but I guess it's up to you if giving them 100 of your hard earned quids appeals?

Personally I'll be putting the £100 I've saved towards my new Billies

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Just purchased the rear ones.

The fronts can be a choice of two, how can I tell.

Their sold as left & right, just follow my links earlier in this post.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Should the anti roll bar move freely when disconnected ?

Yes.



Can I remind people the front Nissan 2000sx were just and idea I was exploring, that's why I only bought one, no sense in buying two links that don't fit . Of course they are very close and will probably be fine, but as I've shown they're not exactly the same length as the originals. I don't want to go back to the leverage/length debate as it's unlikely to make much difference, however, as we know a link of a different length will alter the angle it sits at and the angle of the ARB.

The main shaft on the standard drop link already runs quite close to the wishbone so the way I see it there's a good chance something shorter or longer could potentially touch the wishbone at some point in it's range of movement. I'm trying to remove noises from my suspension not introduce more, so I've gone back to the research and have found something I think could work even better.

Rather than being 10mm shorter as with the Nissan 2000sx links, my new option is much closer to the standard dimensions. I've ordered one and am returning the Nissan link, I think it's best to hold off revealing the original application for this new option until I can 100% confirm it is indeed an even a better fit.

I know the 2000sx link is only 10mm short, but the Honda Accord ones are meant to be a direct fit replacement for Chimaera fronts, so I would prefer to find a direct fit replacement for the rear too so people can buy just buy a set with total confidence.

There's no point in making a saving if you've then got to customise the things to make them fit and work properly.

Dave.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Your link to ebay came up with Civic drop links , are mine wrong now ?

... these are my links taken directly from the beginning of the post, open them and they clearly state Honda Accord... no mention of Civic anywhere???

ChimpOnGas said:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588580801

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Saturday 10th September 23:59[/footnote]

[footnote]Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 19th September 21:21

[ChimpOnGas]

So here's Peters rather nice double jointed Mk3 Mondeo estate rear drop link option.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-16h-es2-big4-orig...



At £20 a pop they're a bit more pricey but having articulation at both ends seems like a good idea to me, Peter says he needed to to have his ARB bent so the link operates in a straighter line... but the TVR originals are perfectly straight anyway?

I would have thought the Phazed double jointed Mondeo links will compensate better with articulation challenges, so to me it looks like Peter had found the best option for the rears all along?

Bending the ARB has made the better drop link solution better still, this may be one small element in a long list of advantages he's clearly using to dominate on those track days he loves so much

Intrax version available here at £140 each

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-MONDEO-III-Mk-3-REA...

[ChimpOnGas]

phazed said:

Just found this before I fitted them nearly 3 years ago.



I'm sure they were no more than £15.00 a pair, still going strong..........

Looks good Peter

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

This is the problem I mentioned earlier Civic short bar Accord wide bar look at the post previously about this its all on here Daz

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 22 September 20:15

Damn it, did I get the wrong ones too then Simon?

Not fitted them yet, the Ebay listing definitely says Honda Accord not Honda Civic

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131

How hard can this be?

[ChimpOnGas]

sparkythecat said:

There are some pictures on this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I went with the below from Boosted, he has 1997 car and mine was born in November 1996 so I figures if the Accord ones worked for him I should be OK with them?

I'll try them on the car on Saturday and report back

BoostedChim said:

I've just tried a set of Civic drop links on my '97 but the angle didn't look good so I tried a set of Accord and they look spot on. I didn't even need to unbolt the mounting brackets. The Accord link were also a bit longer only a few mm shorter than the orginals.

Edited by BoostedChim on Friday 16th January 10:20

[ChimpOnGas]

Well Honda Accord drop links fit my Chimaera just fine.

As far as I can see after a trial fit you can install them either way around, although they did seem a little happier with the nylock nuts facing forward like this which is the opposite to how Boosted fitted his






Here they are with the ball joints facing forwards.






Actually I'm currently running no roll bars at all , its just a brief test but after a short drive I'm struggling to notice any more roll at all

The only real difference I can detect is all the nasty noises have completely gone, I'm now running my newly refurbished 400lb sprung Gaz Gold Pros on the rear and my old original Bilsteins on the front. I've only been for a short drive so far but this brand mismatched coil over combination with a full drop link/ARB delete actually seems the best so far, I'm now super tempted to permanently remove both roll bars and leave the car with its current 400lb Gaz rear & standard Billy front set up.

But the testing continues, after running it for a week or so like this I'll reconnect the front ARB using the Honda Accord drop links, then following another week of testing I'll also connect the rear using the Mk3 Mondeo links.

Finally I'll try my soon to be rebuilt front Gaz Gold pros with various connected & disconnected ARB permutations, if my old Bilstens win out as I think they might I'll buy a set of new ride height adjustable ones from Ben Lang with his Tuscan 2 spring rates and valving and may also end up with no drop links/anti roll bars at all

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 25th September 22:34

[ChimpOnGas]

I know every car under the sun uses anti roll bars and there's very good reasons for that, but I have to say my Chimaera corners flat as you like on the road with both bars disconnected. I appreciate this will be a different story on the track, but recently I've started to question why I've been building a track car with rose jointed everything when I don't even track the car?

With no ARBs the suspension immediately felt more compliant and yielding over rough surfaces, I can only assume this is because the suspension is now truly independent and doesn't have a steel bar tying the two wishbones together on each axle?

I did chuck the car about a bit yesterday and on known roads at speed including some bends I know will unsettle the car if all is not well with my suspension, I could honestly feel no change in roll but the car does seem to have gained grip at the front.

If the car was all rolly polly on bends I'd be putting the drop links back on tonight, I now have a full set I know will fit but I've decided to hold off because right now the car genuinely only seems the better for not having both the ARBs connected.

The biggest difference that totally dominates the "no anti roll bars" driving experience is that the suspension is way more quiet and compliant over poor surfaces, and that's compared with how it was when I renewed everything six years ago.

When I find what feels best on the road perhaps I need one track day to push the set up to it's limits of grip in a safe environment, this would at least tell me what the car will do in an extreme situation on the road which would in turn give me more confidence in the cars abilities when I'm pressing on.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 26th September 12:48