TVR Parts Drop Links
Discussion
I'm not suggesting for a minute people should run out and remove their anti roll bars, but I am determined to try lots of different permeations and approach the whole exercise with an open mind.
As it stands if you want my honest real world report on what happens when you drive a Chimaera on the road without anti roll bars... it's like this:
You'll enjoy...
In it's favour an anti roll bar will limit roll but that's not all it's doing, the inevitable negative consequence of tying the left & right suspension together with a dirty great steel bar is that what ever road surface imperfection the left or right side suspension is trying to manage is also directly transmitted to the other side on that axle line, this is the same undesirable situation we see with a beam axle.
So why are anti roll bars so common? Well firstly although we see ARBs fitted to both road cars & race cars we need to separate the two.
Road cars use ARBs for two reasons:
1. To retain a softly sprung comfortable ride in a straight line while still retaining acceptable roll control when cornering
2. To tune in under steer, as this is far safer on the limit handling characteristic than the other option which is over steer
Race cars on the other hand are often so stiffly sprung they could mostly do without using anti roll bars to limit roll, but they do still use them to allow tuning of on the limit handling characteristics.
So what if you had a fairly stiffly sprung TVR that actually doesn't roll much on the road, a TVR you only ever use on the road anyway, in such cases why wouldn't you just delete the anti roll bars altogether?
All that happens is you'll get to enjoy the well known benefits of having truly independent suspension.
As it stands if you want my honest real world report on what happens when you drive a Chimaera on the road without anti roll bars... it's like this:
You'll enjoy...
- Sharper turn-in
- An increase in front end traction
- Significantly less fidgety behaviour over poor surfaces
- More confidence inspiring handling and so can be driven quicker on potholed back roads
- Overall a more comfortable ride
- Nasty suspension noises eliminated
- All this with no discernible increase in body roll
In it's favour an anti roll bar will limit roll but that's not all it's doing, the inevitable negative consequence of tying the left & right suspension together with a dirty great steel bar is that what ever road surface imperfection the left or right side suspension is trying to manage is also directly transmitted to the other side on that axle line, this is the same undesirable situation we see with a beam axle.
So why are anti roll bars so common? Well firstly although we see ARBs fitted to both road cars & race cars we need to separate the two.
Road cars use ARBs for two reasons:
1. To retain a softly sprung comfortable ride in a straight line while still retaining acceptable roll control when cornering
2. To tune in under steer, as this is far safer on the limit handling characteristic than the other option which is over steer
Race cars on the other hand are often so stiffly sprung they could mostly do without using anti roll bars to limit roll, but they do still use them to allow tuning of on the limit handling characteristics.
So what if you had a fairly stiffly sprung TVR that actually doesn't roll much on the road, a TVR you only ever use on the road anyway, in such cases why wouldn't you just delete the anti roll bars altogether?
All that happens is you'll get to enjoy the well known benefits of having truly independent suspension.
ITVRI said:
Can anyone clarify if the Mondeo droplinks are from a saloon or estate? My understanding is they should be from an estate?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I purchased these Delphi ones for a Mk3 Mondeo estate 2000/2001...http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
They were £25 for a pair.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391032867786?_trksid=p20...
I'm fitting them this weekend to continue my testing of all permutations, I'll try the car like this but still with no front anti roll bar and report back.
phazed said:
Last year, during a Sprint I snapped a front drop link rendering the front ARB useless. The result was slightly strange handling at speed. It seemed that I could point the nose into a bend apply power and drift the rear round. Times were slightly worse although it was fun!
At another sprint I thought I would disconnect the ARB at the rear and try it out. It's hard to describe the handling but it felt weird and my times were slightly down.
So, for me running both front and rear ARBs for use at speed is an advantage.
This is while running Gaz Monos with 450/400 Spring setup, Leven fronts and Mondeo drop links.
Good feedback Peter At another sprint I thought I would disconnect the ARB at the rear and try it out. It's hard to describe the handling but it felt weird and my times were slightly down.
So, for me running both front and rear ARBs for use at speed is an advantage.
This is while running Gaz Monos with 450/400 Spring setup, Leven fronts and Mondeo drop links.
The track is of course a very different thing to the road, from Peters feedback it seems the roll bar is clearly doing something but if you need to be at ten tenths to feel just a slight difference and on the road the ride is more compliant without the bars then I may still end up running no ARBs at all.
Dave.
Ok guys, Mondeo estate rear drop links fitted.... and they work well with no ARB bending required.
The beauty of these drop links is they are double jointed, that is there's a ball joint at each end allowing a lot more articulation. Compare this with the rigid rod design of the originals (or even the Ractech ones) and it seems to me the Mondeo links will be significantly kinder on the wishbone ARB bracket which as we know cracks unless you fit the significantly beefed up version.
It strikes me the standard brackets only break because they are under some seriously punishing loads, I wouldn't mind betting the standard bracket would never break if a double jointed drop link had been chosen in the first place. So a massive thanks to Peter (Phazed) for sharing the Mondeo estate drop links idea
.
I'm now running rebuilt Gaz Gold Pros on the rear with Mondeo links, and old Billies on the front but no drop links. I took 'Ol Gasbag' out for a good thrapping like this and to my surprise there were no new noises, so in that respect it's just like the no drop link set up I've been running for the last week.
But the handling has changed, tip the car into a bend and up to a point it's very neutral just like the no drop link set up, but there comes a point if you're really pushing it where the car now quite abruptly turns into the bend more aggressively like you've sharply put another few degrees of steering input in
This was quite unnerving when it first happened given my steering input remained consistent, its almost like the rear kicked out but I'm sure it didn't, perhaps it's just the nose of the car tucking in when the rear lent on the ARB? Whatever it is, it's repeatable... time and time again the car would feel nice & neutral in a rapid corner, then mid bend it would quite suddenly tighten up my chosen line without me asking for it?
Does this condition ring any bells with people who regularly track their TVR, if so perhaps you can explain exactly what's happening?
The other things I noted after fitting the Mondeo rear links were:
1. The rear feels marginally less compliant
2. The rear feels tauter and generally more connected
3. The under steer that presented itself as front tyre squeal during spirited cornering has gone
4. There are no new noises since going from no rear links to fitting the Mondeo links
I'll run the car like this for another week then fit the Honda front drop links to see how bringing the front ARB back into play affects the handling.
The beauty of these drop links is they are double jointed, that is there's a ball joint at each end allowing a lot more articulation. Compare this with the rigid rod design of the originals (or even the Ractech ones) and it seems to me the Mondeo links will be significantly kinder on the wishbone ARB bracket which as we know cracks unless you fit the significantly beefed up version.
It strikes me the standard brackets only break because they are under some seriously punishing loads, I wouldn't mind betting the standard bracket would never break if a double jointed drop link had been chosen in the first place. So a massive thanks to Peter (Phazed) for sharing the Mondeo estate drop links idea
. I'm now running rebuilt Gaz Gold Pros on the rear with Mondeo links, and old Billies on the front but no drop links. I took 'Ol Gasbag' out for a good thrapping like this and to my surprise there were no new noises, so in that respect it's just like the no drop link set up I've been running for the last week.
But the handling has changed, tip the car into a bend and up to a point it's very neutral just like the no drop link set up, but there comes a point if you're really pushing it where the car now quite abruptly turns into the bend more aggressively like you've sharply put another few degrees of steering input in
This was quite unnerving when it first happened given my steering input remained consistent, its almost like the rear kicked out but I'm sure it didn't, perhaps it's just the nose of the car tucking in when the rear lent on the ARB? Whatever it is, it's repeatable... time and time again the car would feel nice & neutral in a rapid corner, then mid bend it would quite suddenly tighten up my chosen line without me asking for it?
Does this condition ring any bells with people who regularly track their TVR, if so perhaps you can explain exactly what's happening?
The other things I noted after fitting the Mondeo rear links were:
1. The rear feels marginally less compliant
2. The rear feels tauter and generally more connected
3. The under steer that presented itself as front tyre squeal during spirited cornering has gone
4. There are no new noises since going from no rear links to fitting the Mondeo links
I'll run the car like this for another week then fit the Honda front drop links to see how bringing the front ARB back into play affects the handling.
Today I fitted a set of new bottom ball joints and the Honda Accord drop links.
Discovered the lift I found last week on the O/S lower ball joint was as much a to do with a loosening nut as it was wear, but the two new joints sourced from Dom at Powers Performance were fitted anyway. I then discovered I'd been given four long bolts and two shorts when it should have been two long and four shorts, so I needed to recycle 2 of my original short bolts
I then noticed the front anti roll bar wasn't correctly centred, actually it was quite a bit unequal so I loosened the ARB bush bracket bolts, squirted some GT85 in there and wiggled the bar in and out until it was centralised.
With the ARB centralised and the bush bracket bolts tightened the Honda Accord drop links slid in like they were made for the car, this time with the ball joints facing forward and the nuts to the rear.
I then went for a drive and it became clear those new ball joints were indeed needed, the steering immediately felt tighter & more direct. With the front ARB now centred and connected for the first time in a few weeks the car definitely felt more connected, the combination of reconditioned Gaz Gold pros on the rear with the Mondeo links and my old Billies on the front but with new lower ball joints and the Accord links acting on a properly centralised ARB has worked wonders.
So I started all this with totally feked rear Gaz Gold Pros (leaking & bent rod), worn out & lose lower ball joints and very knackered rose jointed Leven drop links front & rear.
I spent £90 on the rear Gaz Gold Pro rebuild, £60 on the lower ball joints, £25 on the Mondeo rear drop links, £15 on the Accord front drop links & £0 on my old front Billies. So for less than £200 I've eliminated all the nasty suspension noises, wayward handling and feeling of slightly disconnected steering, the car no longer tramlines on white lines or skips about over pot holes.
The only thing I don't like is I've lost my forward rake because my old front Billies aren't ride height adjustable, so I'm still committed to the Ben Lang Tuscan 2 Bilsteins with their circlip ride height adjustment feature. I've also come to the conclusion rose joints on drop links or coil overs are not for me.
One last step to go and with Ben Lang's help I'm confident I'll finally get the perfect set up for my needs, fingers crossed
Discovered the lift I found last week on the O/S lower ball joint was as much a to do with a loosening nut as it was wear, but the two new joints sourced from Dom at Powers Performance were fitted anyway. I then discovered I'd been given four long bolts and two shorts when it should have been two long and four shorts, so I needed to recycle 2 of my original short bolts
I then noticed the front anti roll bar wasn't correctly centred, actually it was quite a bit unequal so I loosened the ARB bush bracket bolts, squirted some GT85 in there and wiggled the bar in and out until it was centralised.
With the ARB centralised and the bush bracket bolts tightened the Honda Accord drop links slid in like they were made for the car, this time with the ball joints facing forward and the nuts to the rear.
I then went for a drive and it became clear those new ball joints were indeed needed, the steering immediately felt tighter & more direct. With the front ARB now centred and connected for the first time in a few weeks the car definitely felt more connected, the combination of reconditioned Gaz Gold pros on the rear with the Mondeo links and my old Billies on the front but with new lower ball joints and the Accord links acting on a properly centralised ARB has worked wonders.
So I started all this with totally feked rear Gaz Gold Pros (leaking & bent rod), worn out & lose lower ball joints and very knackered rose jointed Leven drop links front & rear.
I spent £90 on the rear Gaz Gold Pro rebuild, £60 on the lower ball joints, £25 on the Mondeo rear drop links, £15 on the Accord front drop links & £0 on my old front Billies. So for less than £200 I've eliminated all the nasty suspension noises, wayward handling and feeling of slightly disconnected steering, the car no longer tramlines on white lines or skips about over pot holes.
The only thing I don't like is I've lost my forward rake because my old front Billies aren't ride height adjustable, so I'm still committed to the Ben Lang Tuscan 2 Bilsteins with their circlip ride height adjustment feature. I've also come to the conclusion rose joints on drop links or coil overs are not for me.
One last step to go and with Ben Lang's help I'm confident I'll finally get the perfect set up for my needs, fingers crossed
I've been running these links for a month now and have put 1,100 miles on them in this time, they're working great so far.
Way less noisy than rose jointed links and far cheaper, they are also significantly cheaper than similar offerings from TVR Parts ect.
I went with Delphi rears:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391032867786?_trksid=p20...
And Febi Bilstein on the front:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131?_trksid=p20...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588580801?_trksid=p20...
Total cost £44.67.
I've got no idea how long they'll last but I suspect they'll hold out just as long (if not longer) than the originals, if they need to be replaced every 20,000 at lest its less than £50 for all four instead of the ridiculous prices others are charging.
I think we should all say a big thanks to Phased (Peter) and the others who spent time & money finding out what fitted and worked on the Chimaera
Drop links are consumable parts that seem to have a particularly hard life on our cars demanding frequent replacement, being able to buy a full set for realistic money helps us all keep our Chimaeras on the road and handling as they should.
Way less noisy than rose jointed links and far cheaper, they are also significantly cheaper than similar offerings from TVR Parts ect.
I went with Delphi rears:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391032867786?_trksid=p20...
And Febi Bilstein on the front:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588553131?_trksid=p20...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351588580801?_trksid=p20...
Total cost £44.67.
I've got no idea how long they'll last but I suspect they'll hold out just as long (if not longer) than the originals, if they need to be replaced every 20,000 at lest its less than £50 for all four instead of the ridiculous prices others are charging.
I think we should all say a big thanks to Phased (Peter) and the others who spent time & money finding out what fitted and worked on the Chimaera
Drop links are consumable parts that seem to have a particularly hard life on our cars demanding frequent replacement, being able to buy a full set for realistic money helps us all keep our Chimaeras on the road and handling as they should.
Paulprior said:
Hi ChimpOnGas, could you please confirm if these track rod ends were correct?, I checked with the seller but they couldn't confirm reference a TVR.
Does anyone know which steering rack gators are suitable?.
Thanks
Not fitted them yet but I'm sure they're correct.Does anyone know which steering rack gators are suitable?.
Thanks
The last ones I fitted five years ago were spot on, they were also the ubiquitous Ford Escort/Cortina track rod ends, they were new old stock QH I believe, very old stock actually as they came with split pints and castellated nuts rather than these new fangled Nylocks
.Your gaiters will depend of weather you have PS or a manual rack, from memory I fitted Mk3 Ford Granada gaiters to my PS equipped 1996 chimaera, do double check this though as it was a while back now.
The drop links covered in this post are spot on by the way, silent in operation (unlike rose jointed ones) and the equal of them in performance in my opinion. They should also significantly outlast rose joints and are massively cheaper to buy, the truth is a worn droplink will make a lot of noise and will function much worse than an unworn OEM style link.
I didn't bother with bending ARBs as others have, I just bolted the links on and threw my expensive but completely knackered Leven ones in the bin. The new OEM style links combined with my excellent custom sprung and valved Mk4 Bilsteins make for a fantastically refined ride when compared with rose jointed links and Gaz Gold Pros.... and don't confuse a refined, quiet and compliant ride with any form of handling compromise
.Quite the opposite in fact, with no more banging, crashing or hopping over potholes and broken surfaces the car is actually significantly faster on the twisties, as we all know better damping also means better braking so the Billies have allowing me to finally extract the truly eye popping potential from my Brembo brakes (braking has never been such fun).
So it really does seem smoother is faster after all, and with all these improvements the car is substantially more enjoyable and confidence inspiring to drive, even the wife commented on it
Seriously boys, over £40 for a set of Ford Escort/Cortina track rod ends is insane!!!
Especially when the going rate is £11.50 a pair....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRACK-ROD-END-PAIR-for-F...
Bet you any money the TVR Parts guy is just buying in and reselling QH ends, bless him... he must be literally laughing his cock off
Especially when the going rate is £11.50 a pair....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRACK-ROD-END-PAIR-for-F...
Bet you any money the TVR Parts guy is just buying in and reselling QH ends, bless him... he must be literally laughing his cock off
For the rear the links I used were listed for a Mk3 Mondeo estate 2000-2007, the Ford part number is 1117801 but look to pay around £13.50 each for quality Delphi or Febi alternatives.
For the front I used links listed for a Honda Accord 1997-2012, the Honda part number is 51320-S84-A01 but this time look to pay around £10.00 each for those quality Delphi or Febi alternatives.
These front and rear links fitted perfectly to my late 1996 Chimaera, they've only done a few thousand miles since fitting but I'm very happy with them so far. All droplinks wear out in time, but I suspect the ones covered in this post may even last a little longer than the original type, and to be honest for the price you really can't go wrong.
Many thanks to Phased (Peter) and the others who spent time & money finding out what fitted and worked on the Chimaera, and for sharing this knowledge with other Chimaera owners.
For the front I used links listed for a Honda Accord 1997-2012, the Honda part number is 51320-S84-A01 but this time look to pay around £10.00 each for those quality Delphi or Febi alternatives.
These front and rear links fitted perfectly to my late 1996 Chimaera, they've only done a few thousand miles since fitting but I'm very happy with them so far. All droplinks wear out in time, but I suspect the ones covered in this post may even last a little longer than the original type, and to be honest for the price you really can't go wrong.
Many thanks to Phased (Peter) and the others who spent time & money finding out what fitted and worked on the Chimaera, and for sharing this knowledge with other Chimaera owners.
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