Retrofitting Power Steering - what is the best option?

[jazzdude]

phazed said:

True, my 106/Saxo pump can be changed in less than an hour.

In fact I did as the first pump was a bit noisy, (eBay £20.00) and the later one is silent, (eBay £40.00).

Why did you go for the Saxo pump instead of the Astra option? Was it easier to locate and install?

[phazed]

I fitted the Vectra power steering pump to my previous car. That was mounted in the centre behind the radiator.

In this car I thought I would try the Saxo pump and located it in the corner which worked very well.

From memory, the Vectra pump was noisier but that might of been the pump itself. The Saxo pump is quite compact and it comes with its own remote reservoir which is bolted right next to it.

[pb450]

I'm in the EPS camp and have a Suzuki Wagon R system, (don't tell anyone) fitted by Lloyds nearly 2 years ago. Anything and everything can and might break or fail on a car - or a washing machine, or anything else mechanical for that matter. Some fail, some don't.

I'm a total convert to the system for all the reasons previously stated, and so far.... Well, I don't want to tempt fate but you get the message. All is good!

[Barkychoc]

I can't be arsed to read it all now but one thing to be aware of on the vauxhall electric unit - certainly on the Meriva my dad had (04 reg) - they were subject to a recall to replace the entire electric unit as it had a habit of deciding to stop working while driving.
Happened to my dad twice before he found out about the recall - Vauxhall then said get stuffed - despite the fact it was clearly faulty - as he'd had a non Vauxhall garage look at it. New electric pas unit over a grand while my dad was having cancer treatment so we just binned it.

[TwinKam]

One failure doth not a precedent make (sorry Mr Shakespeare)
No, I couldn't be arsed to click on all of those either, I too work on these things daily and see failures of all sorts of mechanisms; mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic. I also know what a dangerous 'tool' the interweb is; you can 'prove' anything if you view it from a large enough (ie global) scale.
If you were to look at a BBA-Reman catalogue (as I'm sure N7GTX has, and will agree), you would be frightened witless to buy ANY car later than a Mk2 Escort ; it is full of pictures of instrument clusters, multi-function displays, ABS controllers, engine ECUs, throttle bodies, transmission (& immobiliser & parking brake & central locking & turbo & derv injection & lighting & cruise & & & &....) ECUs from every make of car including so called 'quality' marques such as BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche & Lexus (hmmmm... can't see any mention of Honda... interesting )
My point is, every system has the potential to fail. Some more than others. And some inventions simply shouldn't have been invented as they offer no advantage. But EPS is here to stay; it has many advantages and few drawbacks. It's not like Electric-over-Hydraulic PAS is 100% reliable either (just ask a MINI owner ) Having said that, the Saxo/106 electric pump has more than proved its reliability as a replacement in Cerbs and Chims, and that was introduced in 1996... quite apt as a period mod!
Beware the Luddites.

[ChimpOnGas]

Wow, some really passionate EPAS haters on here, passion is great and I always love a good debate but now its clear you're unlikely to make it to the end of the road alive with an EPAS system fitted we should all get together to warn the stupid car makers who've clearly chosen it without doing the kind of high level R&D work TVR amateur home mechanics are so famous for.

I'm sure they'll thank us

If however you've already chosen to place this electric Ninja assassin under your dash and between your knees, while you're still on this mortal coil its worth noting the old argument surrounding loss of steering feel from EPAS systems is gradually losing ground too:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-vs-h...

On the back of this PH post I've decided to throw my Canems ECU in the bin, I'm returning to a distributor and the 14CUX because clearly all this modern witchcraft can't be trusted.

Now, where did I put the keys to my cave?

[N7GTX]

I really could not care less what some TVR owning experts will try to brainwash me with. No matter how detailed their posts

The OP asked a question about electric power steering and has been given a selection of opinions, some based on fact and some based on half a dozen posts on PH. Yes a handful have said their power steering is excellent and they love it but that does not prove that this is a failsafe method of improving their car. Having read a lot of posts now on these cars, it seems the majority buy their parts from a well known auction site or the local scrappy. Therefore, the condition of the parts is unknown.

It is all well and good to encourage others to modify their cars but steering is a critical component, not a bit of bling under the bonnet, and it would be foolish in the extreme if all the facts were not presented. I hope I have added to the debate and pointed out the downsides of a component that has the potential to kill you (in an extreme situation probably). BBA Reman and ECU Testing do list a million parts that fail and, perhaps, is the reason TVR did not want to burden the cars with gizmos. No ABS/airbags/traction control/climate control/etc etc. If you want these comforts then why not buy a Z4, Merc SLK, Honda S2000? I am by no means a purist (as my profile shows) but why did you buy a TVR in the first place?

Hopefully, now that the OP has heard both sides of the argument, he can make an informed decision. If anyone has any doubts about what happens when electric power steering fails, why not run along to your local Vauxhall/Renault/Mini/Fiat dealer and sit in a car and turn the steering with the engine off?



Happy days

[N7GTX]

TwinKam said:

Beware the Luddites.

"derogatory
a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology"

Well, that's confirmed it. I'll cancel my subscription for my KTS570 to Bosch (£1,200 p.a.) for the yearly updates. Then I can throw my Ford IDS, Peugeot/Citroen, VCDS, Vaux-com, Bavarian Technic, Renault Clip and all the other latest diagnostic tools plus the 3 laptops I use every day in my job, in the bin.

There, that's much better. I'm now a true luddite. Thanks for unburdening me.

[TwinKam]

N7GTX said:

TwinKam said:

Beware the Luddites.

"derogatory
a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology"

Well, that's confirmed it. I'll cancel my subscription for my KTS570 to Bosch (£1,200 p.a.) for the yearly updates. Then I can throw my Ford IDS, Peugeot/Citroen, VCDS, Vaux-com, Bavarian Technic, Renault Clip and all the other latest diagnostic tools plus the 3 laptops I use every day in my job, in the bin.

There, that's much better. I'm now a true luddite. Thanks for unburdening me.

No need for thanks nor sarcasm, Iain, a 'true luddite' wouldn't have bought that kit in the first place!
We both have all this kit because we have to; in order to work on 'modern' stuff, not because we necessarily embrace all new inventions or automatically think that it's all beneficial. Or is it just bragging rights?
Back to topic. EPAS (as in electric motor on column) is here to stay; I'll go so far as to say that it will be the norm for all new cars for the foreseeable. The fact that it's an unobtrusive (and in most cases invisible) retro fit means that the 'classic' car lads have embraced it. (One only has to drive an 'old' car a short distance, whether its a Minor or a DB5, to realise what hard work they are to manoeuvre without any PAS.) Hydraulic PAS is simply not adaptable to some of these cars, whether a electric or belt driven pump. Hooray that all three methods can fit on a Chim. Or none at all. Personal choice then.
Anyhoo, must dash, got to adjust the tiller on this 1897 Panhard et Levassor...

[N7GTX]

The reply wasn't meant as you read it. I thought I had put a smiley at the end but obviously looking back I did not. Anyhoo, not bragging rights, just showing that I love technology and all that it offers.
I understand the point about making older cars more modern - I am definitely no purist - but I am yet to be convinced by the safety aspects of some (not all) EPS, especially when sourced from eBay or the scrappy.
I have saved the Scooby rack mod in my faves as I am beginning to struggle with the manual rack especially round town, parking etc. But I love the weight of it on the road and I found the Cerb was too light and a bit scary for me.
I am in the process of making up my mind whether to sell the car as my health means I tire easily and ideally need to find (sorry for swearing) an automatic. Is the Panhard for sale with a nice 7 speed flappy paddle auto in it?

[TwinKam]

N7GTX said:

The reply wasn't meant as you read it. I thought I had put a smiley at the end but obviously looking back I did not. Anyhoo, not bragging rights, just showing that I love technology and all that it offers.
I understand the point about making older cars more modern - I am definitely no purist - but I am yet to be convinced by the safety aspects of some (not all) EPS, especially when sourced from eBay or the scrappy.
I have saved the Scooby rack mod in my faves as I am beginning to struggle with the manual rack especially round town, parking etc. But I love the weight of it on the road and I found the Cerb was too light and a bit scary for me.
I am in the process of making up my mind whether to sell the car as my health means I tire easily and ideally need to find (sorry for swearing) an automatic. Is the Panhard for sale with a nice 7 speed flappy paddle auto in it?

No offence taken (nor intended this end). Sorry to hear about your health issues, another thread here about a*t*m*t*c TVRs; the latest post by MisterT who is thinking the same way as you!
Regarding the P et L... yeah, everything's really flappy! ...but the reason I picked on 1896 is that a year later they changed from tiller to wheel...

[stevesprint]

carsy said:

I did consider the Corsa electric column but felt it a step too far with the welding needed to the column and the pedal box modifications.

You’re right, especially if you want to retain the collapsible column, it took me a whole winter to workout but I was already removing my pedal box to lower it for a vented bonnet plus I had to find the right welder for the column.

ChimpOnGas said:

There you go, real world electric PAS experience on a manual rack Chimera.

Thanks CoG for your vote of confidence. I have a Griff not Chimmy, sorry I’m trespassing and with all the doomsters over here I’ll steer my modern witchcraft back to the other side before my Electric!! PAS bursts into flames and in future I’ll keep my mods to myself (I know you enjoy a bit of banter)

jazzdude said:

Do you know where a blow by blow DIY instructable might be for the Corsa installation on a Chim?
I would be very interested to read it.

I am also put off with the amount of cutting and welding the Corsa Epas system seems to need, and at the end of the day you still have the manual rack and its longer turning ratio.

Sounds like you've now see http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Looking back at it all now I can see what you mean and doubt I would have started if I had known in advance, but 4 years down the road I’m pleased I didn’t know otherwise I wouldn’t now have the best of both worlds, assisted for parking and manual above 40mph.

N7GTX said:

but I am yet to be convinced by the safety aspects of some (not all) EPS, especially when sourced from eBay or the scrappy.

I used an ex-MOD welder who's work is normally X-rayed, plus ALL my EPAS kit came new or remanufactured from http://www.dcelectronics.co.uk , they specialise in NASCAR, Formula 1, Le Mans Endurance Series, World Rally, Superbike and F1 Powerboats and therefore is safe enough for me on the Millbrook speed bowl last year and Santa Pod this year.

Furthermore, I have the added reassurance if my system fails I’m able to steer my Griff exactly as originally designed with the manual rack and better still if it fails above 40 mph I wouldn’t even notice as its unassisted above 40mph, you can't get safe than that!!

RV8 - I'm doing my bit for global warming

[jazzdude]

This debate has been interesting, thanks all.

Even though I had more or less decided that the Scooby saxo route was the way to go I am still intrigued by the Corsa option. With the cutting of and fabrication I guess I won't fully understand the instructions unless both columns are on the bench in front of me.

I suppose I could buy 2 corsa columns in case I cut something too short but is the tvr one a standard vauxhall model in case something goes wrong there too?

Should the Corsa colum be sought with its ecu unit and what part is the potentiometer, as that part does not show in any photos I have seen. How is the speed measured for the system to adjust the assistance?



And lastly does the existing cowling fit back over the new column and can I reuse the key barrel and stalks?

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Im wondering how the TVR rack can be refurbished when there are no available parts .

Mine is worn and just fitting seals is not going to fix it .

[phazed]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Im wondering how the TVR rack can be refurbished when there are no available parts .

Mine is worn and just fitting seals is not going to fix it .

It can't Daz.

[Nosh]

phazed said:

You are more than welcome to try my Scooby set up.

Peter

This was the next thing I wanted to tackle - I bought the TVR pump and res from Alex(Daredevils) and wondered if you have any tips / links to fitment...?

I believe it is something I can 'do down the drive.....'

Cheers in advance
Nosh

[phazed]

Nosh said:

phazed said:

You are more than welcome to try my Scooby set up.

Peter

This was the next thing I wanted to tackle - I bought the TVR pump and res from Alex(Daredevils) and wondered if you have any tips / links to fitment...?

I believe it is something I can 'do down the drive.....'

Cheers in advance
Nosh

Have a read of this first.

Feel free to pm me with your number and we can have a chat.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[stevesprint]

jazzdude said:

I guess I won't fully understand the instructions unless both columns are on the bench in front of me

Here's the TVR & Corsa B columns side by side at the start and shows everything required from the Corsa (don't use the Corsa ECU)

jazzdude said:

I suppose I could buy 2 corsa columns in case I cut something too short but is the tvr one a standard vauxhall model in case something goes wrong there too?

You wouldn’t need 2 Corsa B EPAS columns and I doubt the TVR column is a standard Vauxhall part, the Griff and Chimmy columns are different lengths. I actually bought a Chimmy column to cannibalise in case it all went pear-shaped and still have my original unmolested column safely stored away. Please no jokes about my Griff having a Chimmy steering column, I do remember having fun changing over the key lock barrel.

Here's the finished EPAS column next to my untouch original so I can revert back to standard, if required.

jazzdude said:

Should the Corsa column be sought with its ECU unit and what part is the potentiometer, as that part does not show in any photos I have seen.

NO NO NO !!!!! You only need the Corsa B EPAS column and motor, I suggest buying a remanufactured one without the ECU from your local goodies store.

I repeat DO NOT USE THE CORSA ECU !!!! It makes the steering far too light even on its heaviest setting. I even tried all the cheap Corsa ECU add-ons available on ebay without success, they don't change the basic functionality/characteristics of the ECU. I was serious when I said "The DC Electronics ECU turned my worst mod into my best mod".

The potentiometer is a manual rotary control knob to vary the weight of the assistance, where as mine is controlled by the road speed. There's a picture of nuttyfruitbat potentiometer here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

jazzdude said:

How is the speed measured for the system to adjust the assistance?

I installed a second road speed sensor on the top of the diff, its the black sensor on the right and works with any number of crown wheel teeth including the standard 16 teeth crown wheel. The left sensor is for the speedo and 14CUX.

jazzdude said:

And lastly does the existing cowling fit back over the new column and can I reuse the key barrel and stalks?

Yes, Yes, Yes and the tilt mechanism is unaffected as I installed the Corsa B EPAS motor half way down the column and doesn't go up to the cowling. No controls are different and when sat in the drivers seat you can’t see anything different, the visible USB programming cable is now hidden and also the warning lamp is now wired to the orange circle with ! mark on the standard warning lamp panel strip already in the dash.


Here, and in the completed column picture above you can see I fitted the EPAS motor in the middle of the column



For a less drastic installation you could install the whole of a Corsa C EPAS column all the way down from the steering wheel but you'll loose the tilt mechanism, see the last picture in this thread.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Here's a picture of my pedal box in situ showing the main EPAS brackets, there’s also a second bracket that fits around the EPAS motor with an exhaust clamp to stop the motor twisting, you can see it in the pictures above.

Edited by stevesprint on Wednesday 2nd November 22:26

[jazzdude]

Brilliant post stevesprint, just what I needed, thanks!!

Ok, so I will look for another TVR column to modify, good idea. I think it is from a Cavalier Mk 3 column but looking on ebay hardly any on there so it might be hard to find one. Is there another Vauxhall that has the same column?

Looking at the side by sides, it seems you weld the top part of the TVR column just under the tilt mech to the Corsa part that has the concertina, then you fabricate some tubes to connect the lower half of the TVR column to the EPAS motor housing. What is not clear is what welding is needed for the internal rods.

Are both the ECU and the potentiometer available at DC Electronics?

The road speed sensor looks strange, as on the Chim the wheel around the prop is castellated in around 15mm increments, I would have to fabricate a new flange to take the extra sensor (which I assume is also from DC electronics).

When you were looking for parts, as a guide, what would you expect to pay for a Corsa B column (Ebay?) and a TVR compatible Vauxhall one?

[stevesprint]

jazzdude said:

Brilliant post stevesprint, just what I needed, thanks!!

Ok, so I will look for another TVR column to modify, good idea. I think it is from a Cavalier Mk 3 column but looking on ebay hardly any on there so it might be hard to find one. Is there another Vauxhall that has the same column?

Looking at the side by sides, it seems you weld the top part of the TVR column just under the tilt mech to the Corsa part that has the concertina, then you fabricate some tubes to connect the lower half of the TVR column to the EPAS motor housing. What is not clear is what welding is needed for the internal rods.

Thanks,

I'm not sure if the column is from another Vauxhall, here’s a picture of a Cavalier Mk3 column that is currently on ebay, the top half certainly looks familiar.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-CAVALIER-MK3-AD...



Here's the two pictures of the top weld from a previous post in this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&am...



My measurements may help you



Here's the lower column weld, I used the Corsa lower section as it collapses & you can see how I made the outer tube collapsible




EPAS motor brackets


Here you can see the Corsa EPAS column can be replaced without any rewelding

jazzdude said:

Are both the ECU and the potentiometer available at DC Electronics?

If you install a road speed sensor you won’t need a potentiometer.
You really need to speak to DC Electronics direct, try and speak to David Cunliffe direct as he is the brains behind all the systems and will know what ECU to recommend as my EPAS LITE ECU has been superseded by new and improved models. When I first considered EPAS I visited David and he was very patience and allowed me to offer up the different EPAS units to my Griff.

jazzdude said:

The road speed sensor looks strange, as on the Chim the wheel around the prop is castellated in around 15mm increments, I would have to fabricate a new flange to take the extra sensor (which I assume is also from DC electronics).

You mean like this crown wheel which also worked a treat

I only changed my crown wheel when I became obsessed with the 14CUX and wanted to correct the speedo in RoverGauge, sad but true. Yes you'll need to make another bracket to take both road speed sensors.

jazzdude said:

When you were looking for parts, as a guide, what would you expect to pay for a Corsa B column (Ebay?) and a TVR compatible Vauxhall one?

Sorry, its vulgar to talk about money . TBH I don’t really know but it won’t be cheap as you really need to buy the following and then spend a whole winter fitting it and refurbishing your pedal box while its out.

1. Complete TVR column to cannibalise as you need the bottom end of the lower shaft
2. Remanufactured EPAS Corsa B Column
3. DC Electronic's ECU including speed sensor

It's been 100% brilliant & reliable and definitely worth the effort. To make the point, if I had another Griff or Chimmy I would definitely to it again !!!!

Edited by stevesprint on Sunday 6th November 23:58