Billy Bilsteins

Billy Bilsteins

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Discussion

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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........the lights went out, the roof flew off and the horn played the theme to Strictly? getmecoat

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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You slid into a curb and now your trackings slightly out biggrin
It's very greasy out there so I hope not to tempt fate!

Bumpy roads M25 that's confidence for you scratchchin


Remind me what tyres and wheel size your on please mate ?

Edited by ClassiChimi on Saturday 19th November 22:04

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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ClassiChimi said:
Don't let us/me down Dave, I look forward to sitting down with a coffee and reading your posts similar to reading a journal or A Haines manual. hehe

the weathers to cold for a decent test, you run out of gas hehe
You got beached on some bit of old farmers drive filling up the tanks in the pitch black a mile from civilisation laugh
Bottomed out all over the place, I dunno, what. wink
Not even close mate tongue out

No matter how bad the road surface was, it was like this all the way.....



Astonishingly good doesn't do it justice... but you always knew I say that didn't ya wink

Seriously fellas, I should have done all this years ago yes

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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ClassiChimi said:
Remind me what tyres and wheel size your on please mate ?
Edited by ClassiChimi on Saturday 19th November 22:04
Rainsport 2's on both axles.

Fronts: 205/50/16

Rears: 225/55/16

I'm old school so I like a bit of tyre wall, people seem to forget what a brilliant idea pneumatic tyres was and insist on fitting rubber bands with next to no air in em confused

I like the free air ride suspension I get from my big ol balloons bounce

Combine my bouncy castle boots with my new Billies and were back to this again....


ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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Get out of here, leave off, you've spent a fortune so you've got to rave about them.
Can't be, your exaggerating, nice tyres wink

So is it like a Tuscan all of a sudden

Ok brief experience but first impressions are there ok then smile

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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Do you have a warm feeling inside and sense your glowing slightly. If so it's worked hehe

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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ClassiChimi said:
Get out of here, leave off, you've spent a fortune so you've got to rave about them.
Can't be, your exaggerating, nice tyres wink

So is it like a Tuscan all of a sudden

Ok brief experience but first impressions are there ok then smile
Early days mate, a short drive and it was dark & wet.

I didn't even look at the ride height and how the car was sitting.

But so far so good, freaking brilliant in fact.

Check out them big top bushes, something is going on with the steering too.... in a good way.

D.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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It's illogical captain!
How can the steering change?
The wishbones go up and down right?
It's darn clever stuff suspension.
Yep, start with ride height, hope that's within scope.
To adjust do you need to compress spring to release collor etc and then adjust height of circlip ( platform) ?
Spring compressors (never a nice thing )
Once set your not going to adjust it though!
Ok, sounds great. Yeah why would that bush be bigger other than for a good reason?
I'll leave you to contemplate and do more testing smile.

I'll have to come take a look sometime Dave, compare the two cars, mine on Protechs, there not bad being honest but I went too soft on springs but they work ok and the damping is consistent.

What's all this about fitting the wishbone better, try taking a pic?
I think I know what you mean by my memory of the wishbones.

All I've got to do is get a nice road going set up, then when I get bored of floating about in comfort, whack on my hard shocks and track tyres and get that race car vibe back for awhile,, then resort to comfort mode again, I did a few miles this summer on lovely half deserted Welsh mountain roads, so narrow no room for error, fact was I tried to go fast and I was, the engine barely woke up and so I slowed slightly and enjoyed the cars handling but at a reasonable pace, much better to get home in one piece and still a thrill a minute, most the time it's not about out right speed, it's just a sense of easy control.
Damping, it's all in that there damping and clever spring rate.


Edited by ClassiChimi on Saturday 19th November 23:11

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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That's some big springs you've got there, they must feel firm. I've found that a low pressure spring doesn't absorb things like I'd hoped at slower speeds, I have to run higher damper settings which defeats the object. I think it's more in the dampers ability to withstand the vibrations that counts, you do have large bushes and surface area to take the blows through on the Bilsteins.

I like the colour of them too, instantly recognisable smile some spec on your car now
You know full well the Brembo extra weight is being taken up with ease with these new shocks and actually adding to better handling/front end grip.
Your just being shy hehe
Ttfn



Matthew Poxon

5,329 posts

172 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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Glad you are pleased with the setup Dave, I will be interested to hear your thoughts when you have got some more miles in. I was offered the Tuscan valving when I bought mine but chickened out and when for standard valving and spring rates.

You may have concvinved me to look at this option when they need a refurb. I was concerned that the Tuscan spec may compromise the ride quality but what you have explained is pretty much how mine perform. Mine could do with beIng just a little torter on track which sounds like the Tuscan spec comes in.

I have never been overly impressed with Gaz to be honest, having said that never driven a car with Gaz monos. What I would be interested to see is Nitron vs Mk4 billstien.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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I mentioned earlier about your car being planted when under full power in 4 th gear Matt, that's with standard springs, very very interesting,
When you think about it the Tuscan should have more power than a standard Chim /Griff
Our cars including Dave's very sharpe sounding motor has a lot more power than a standard car so my thinking is the Tuscan set up might be just the job for our more powerful, in many cases more torque than speed 6 engined cars, the playing field is more level so the rear Tuscan springs might be more suited to our power to weight. smile

Dave having the Gas tanks gains stability on the rear so he's quids in.
Trying to be scientific, or mathematical if you like,
Dave's added weight to the rear taking the weight biase slightly to the rear, but he's also added hefty Brembo brakes up front, I do believe they are slightly heavier than the standard brakes so he's actually brought the Bias back towards the front sgain, by adding weight on all four corners he's probably getting a better tyre footprint on the road with each tyre and in most cases it's going to feel a nice drive indeed. He goes on about it enough hehe

I'm really chuffed for Dave but as we say, early days, suspension has a habit of being nice one day and something else the next, takes plenty of different scenarios to find them out.

Just looking at them fills me with confidence smile

Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 20th November 00:10

portzi

2,296 posts

174 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
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glow worm said:
All my cars have Billies...the Sag, the Tuscan S convertible and my 2001 Chim came from the factory with Billies (the rears have been renewed since one leaked a little).
Two weeks ago I replaced the Billies on my BMW328 Sports coupe (after 145k miles and 18 years service !!). I put B6 Sports on but decided to keep the old Eibach springs since they showed no signs of wear.
I've always been pleased with Bilsteins.
Hi Keith,

How does Paul and Heath rate the Billie's compared to the Nitrons and GAZ's of today. They must know Ben really well from back at the factory dayssmile.

Edited by portzi on Sunday 20th November 07:53

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
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ClassiChimi said:
It's illogical captain!
How can the steering change?
Exactly, I'm still trying to work it out, but I've got my lovely connected solid feeling steering back and while I don't get why this has happened... I'm absolutely chuffed to bits cloud9


ClassiChimi said:
Yep, start with ride height, hope that's within scope. To adjust do you need to compress spring to release collor etc and then adjust height of circlip ( platform) ?
Spring compressors (never a nice thing )
Once set your not going to adjust it though!
Ben Lang said the ride height should be good right out the box, I asked for a bit of nose down rake as I've found the car is more stable like this and Ben said "no problem". The truth is is was dark by the time I'd finished fitting all four units and while I did manage a short drive I was in the car not looking at it from the outside so I've got no idea how she's sitting. Yes, to adjust you need to compress the springs, you can then pop the snap ring out and change the spring saddle height, it's not as convenient as the threaded ride height adjusters but the point for me with going Billies is I don't want to be constantly adjusting things I just want it right.


ClassiChimi said:
Ok, sounds great. Yeah why would that bush be bigger other than for a good reason? I'll leave you to contemplate and do more testing smile.
That big bush with its huge steel washer got uprated for a reason, it was a proper fight to get the thing into the wishbone brackets compared with fitting the Gaz units with their aluminium spacers. But the location to the chassis it gives is way more secure. Also with rose joints you can get hold of the whole coil over unit and rotate it 45 degrees in both directions about it's axis, not sure why they are designed to do this or even if its desirable. The Billies are very different in this respect, once fitted they're in there with "solid as a rock" location to the chassis with that big top bush and obviously you can't rotated them about their axis' like you can with rose jointed units.


ClassiChimi said:
I'll have to come take a look sometime Dave, compare the two cars, mine on Protechs, there not bad being honest but I went too soft on springs but they work ok and the damping is consistent.
Mate you are most welcome to come and have a drive or perhaps we could hook up at a TVR event some time? Suspension is all about feel and while I'm an expert is all the blah blah blah its all meaningless really without getting behind the wheel and trying it for yourself. You'll find 'Ol Gasbag' is slower than your car, she makes her 240hp like TVR claimed a 4.0 litre did but needs to be viewed as fit 4.0 litre and not compared with a 300hp TVR which having driven my mates 5.0 litre is a step up you can properly feel. 'Ol Gasbag' is all about smoothness & drivability while still being able to pick up her petticoats and get you down the road at a good lick driving


ClassiChimi said:
Dave having the Gas tanks gains stability on the rear so he's quids in. Trying to be scientific, or mathematical if you like,
Dave's added weight to the rear taking the weight biase slightly to the rear, but he's also added hefty Brembo brakes up front, I do believe they are slightly heavier than the standard brakes so he's actually brought the Bias back towards the front sgain, by adding weight on all four corners he's probably getting a better tyre footprint on the road with each tyre and in most cases it's going to feel a nice drive indeed. He goes on about it enough hehe
Once I'd uprated the rear springs on the Gaz units to 400lbs units to solve the bottoming out issue the extra 45kg in the boot from my steel LPG bottles delivered improvements over a standard Chimaera for sure, the handling poise and balance of the car were enhanced and the car felt more planted on the road.

Even before the conversion on the original Billies and the Ga suspension the car has always tucked in on hard fast cornering, pitch her into a fast tight bend while properly pressing on and the car follows a nice predictable line until it gets to a point where she seems to behave like I've added some more steering input, it was a little disconcerting at first but I did get used to it as I became prepared for it to happen. I only had a very limited drive on the new Billies but purposely tested it on that tight bend I know the car does its "tucking in" trick and for the first time in the 7 years I've owned my TVR it simply refused to do it, it was wet so I didn't go mad but I could already feel the car is handling differently with the new Billies.


ClassiChimi said:
I'm really chuffed for Dave but as we say, early days, suspension has a habit of being nice one day and something else the next, takes plenty of different scenarios to find them out.
Exactly, its early days indeed and you are spot on with your "feels nice one day and something else the next", I had this alot with my Gaz Gold Pros and concluded the only worked as I wanted them too in a very tight window of fuel load, my mood and the roads I was driving the car on that day. But from my short drive so far I'd say there's every indication my new Billies will offer a big widening of that window because they seem to offer great handling combined with a more compliant ride than the GGPs. I can hand on heart say I've never known so few noises emanating from the suspension, I really rate the Honda & Mondeo drop links I fitted recently with their proper OEM style ball joints, and so far there's every indication my new MK4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilsteins are going to the icing on the ride, handling and comfort cake lick


Matthew Poxon said:
Glad you are pleased with the setup Dave, I will be interested to hear your thoughts when you have got some more miles in. I was offered the Tuscan valving when I bought mine but chickened out and when for standard valving and spring rates.

You may have convinced me to look at this option when they need a refurb. I was concerned that the Tuscan spec may compromise the ride quality but what you have explained is pretty much how mine perform. Mine could do with beIng just a little tauter on track which sounds like the Tuscan spec comes in.

I have never been overly impressed with Gaz to be honest, having said that never driven a car with Gaz monos. What I would be interested to see is Nitron vs Mk4 Bilstien.
As with Alun, I extend an open invitation for you to drive 'Ol Gasbag' Mathew, it's the only way to get a feel for the Mk4 Tuscan "S" valving, actually you'd make a great second evaluation test pilot as you have extensive experience of these Billies with standard valving so you'll be able to report back on the difference.

Perhaps the answer is for all three of us to meet at the next TVR event where well set aside a hour or so for you and Alun to both have a decent test drive over some mixed road types & surface qualities. You guys can both then report back on this post to share your genuine thoughts on the way 'Ol Gasbag' drives, first of all I predict you'll be impressed with how smooth and nicely a TVR can be on LPG, but equally impressed with these fantastic Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens.

But I encourage you both to be 100% honest, don't say its good to be kind to me, write your review as if you'd just jumped in a regular petrol 4.0 litre Chimaera and try not to be influenced by all my sales spiel on how good these new Billies really are.

I got up early this morning like a kid gets up early on Christmas because I can't get the prospect of the next test drive out of my mind, shame its pishing with rain here but that's never stopped me driving my TVR before so I'll see you all later s I'm off for another run on my new Billy Bilstiens driving

Thanks for listening folks thumbup


Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 20th November 07:33

glow worm

5,799 posts

226 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
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portzi said:
Hi Keith,

How does Paul and Heath rate the Billie's compared to the Nitrons and GAZ's of today. They must know Ben really well from back at the factory dayssmile.

Edited by portzi on Sunday 20th November 07:53
Hi Mark, yes Heath and Paul are still in touch with Ben. Heath put the Billies on my BMW, however I wouldn't comment here on their thoughts wink .
Heaths into his Ohlins which he has put in both his Tuscan and his Chim. Ben did try Ohlins on the red Tuscan convertible Press car that Jackie Stewart drove around Oulton Park with James May. Not sure if they were still on at the time of filming.

portzi

2,296 posts

174 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
quotequote all
glow worm said:
portzi said:
Hi Keith,

How does Paul and Heath rate the Billie's compared to the Nitrons and GAZ's of today. They must know Ben really well from back at the factory dayssmile.

Edited by portzi on Sunday 20th November 07:53
Hi Mark, yes Heath and Paul are still in touch with Ben. Heath put the Billies on my BMW, however I wouldn't comment here on their thoughts wink .
Heaths into his Ohlins which he has put in both his Tuscan and his Chim. Ben did try Ohlins on the red Tuscan convertible Press car that Jackie Stewart drove around Oulton Park with James May. Not sure if they were still on at the time of filming.
It would be interesting to here Heath's thoughts on various brands of dampeners he has tested and used with Ben, but as you say on a open forum it maybe not wise to publish.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
quotequote all
What's the point of doing any tests if your not going to publish the results.
That's helpfull that is!

There's shocks and there's shocks, pays ya money and all.
At £1000 or £250 a corner, we're still talking about a budget shock so as others have said it's nearest and respected competition must be Nitrons.
Isn't this the sort of thing Sprint should be doing, Tvr is dead!
All these older Tvrs are only here because of the owners obsessions,
the more knowledge that's passed on surely has a ripple down effect and maybe more of us would be inclined to try things out!

Tvr cars survive as does every dealer and parts supplier because of all us second hand car owners supporting the mark.
Some are trying to own one on the cheap but most are trying to do the right thing.
What we need is experienced people to offer good advice so we can all keep the mark alive. Vested interests get in the way of the bigger and more important picture.

Suspension geometry is one of the more technical issues that needs to be clearly defined so owners have some idea of how to make there cars as safe as possible.
All these different shocks being supported by different people all saying theirs does the job, people who have done tests keeping the info close to there chest, who gives a st, it's only a few hundred cars that exist out of Tvr, and only about 10 on the flipping road!

Rant over hehe



Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 20th November 12:18

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
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Not as much nose down rake as I used to run but I tried the car at 90 leptons down the M40 and it's super stable at speed so I think Ill leave it as is.

Did the all important bottoming out test and also at 90 on the M40 I hit a dip in the road I know from experience will show up any issues.

No bottoming out at all, in fact the Bilstien dampers sucked it up almost like it wasn't there.

I put another 40 miles on the new Billies and I'm very happy with them indeed, firm but compliant is how I'd describe them with the added benefit that the steering has improved massively.

Still trying to understand the steering improvement thing???

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Sunday 20th November 2016
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They might settle a small amount yet too.
They have to be firm enough for those dip tests at speed, very important part of getting them to work so that sounds encouraging.
Firm is ok with me because soft doesn't offer better ride on the whole.

Keep us informed.

I still think the softest tyres possible will be half the battle. Rainsport are as good as any for that.
Rainsport 3 have a very soft side wall and maluable tread blocks, they might actually wear out!

I'm embarking on creating a more touring focused car, as it was designed almost,
It's an excuse to keep the car and use it on longer journeys more.
Big tyres, nicely controlled ride height and confidence over rough road surfaces
I think the Bilstein might be just the shock in it's price bracket that offers those things as a given.

With those bump stops fyour not going to feel bottoming out very much thumbup


andy43

9,548 posts

253 months

Monday 21st November 2016
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Those big bushes are probably very good shock absorbers in their own right - my refurbed units are small-bushed top and bottom, still a better solution than solid chunks of metal for a road car.
Ride (std dia Toyos on mine) is definitely better than on the original ancient tyres and shocks, plus it is quiet and seems to feel consistent on bumps.
ChimpOnGas said:
Still trying to understand the steering improvement thing???
If the nose is more 'standard' height it might need the geo redoing now it's sitting differently?
All sounds very positive smile

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 21st November 2016
quotequote all
andy43 said:
Those big bushes are probably very good shock absorbers in their own right - my refurbed units are small-bushed top and bottom, still a better solution than solid chunks of metal for a road car.
Ride (std dia Toyos on mine) is definitely better than on the original ancient tyres and shocks, plus it is quiet and seems to feel consistent on bumps.
ChimpOnGas said:
Still trying to understand the steering improvement thing???
If the nose is more 'standard' height it might need the geo redoing now it's sitting differently?
All sounds very positive smile
Personally I don't feel the steering improvement thing has anything to do with the very small change in rake, for sure something else its at play here, I've sent Ben an email and asked for his comments as even though it's a massive improvement I still want to fully understand what's truly going on?

My best guess is it centres around what I've been saying all along about the way that big top bush which must surely offer way better chassis location than the pencil thin Gaz Gold Pro aluminium spacers or even the earlier and smaller Bilstein top bushes?

Look again at the surface area of the Gaz spacers where they connect the units to the chassis.



As you can see the diameter of the spacers isn't actually that much bigger that the bolt that passes through them. People who run these units should also check their soft aluminium spacers carefully as wear is very common here. Remove and inspect closely by looking down the bore of the bush, don't be surprised if you observe some ovality, wear that will cause noises and other unwanted traits. Also check your rose joints, I found mine had seized solid and my soft aluminium spacers where the hardened steel bolt passes through them was showing the signs of ovality I describe above.


Now look at the old small bush Billies next to the new big bush version and observe how much more surface area they offer compared with the Gaz or small bush Billies.



That much bigger bush with it's huge steel washer has to provide improvements in the way the unit connects to the chassis, and my guess is the new version Billies were given that big bush upgrade for a very good reason yes

But at this point it is just an educated guess on my part so lets hear what Ben Lang has to say about why my steering has become so much more connected and direct since fitting my new Billies.

I have to say early indications are I made the right choice here, with a limitless budget I probably would have gone with Intrax or even Ohlins but for a shade under £1000 these new Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens seem to offer the ultimate combination of handling, ride quality and steering feel within that budget.

Buying Nitrons would have cost be about £400 more, with a set of the level one Intrax about £200 more than that, Ohlins take things a step or two further so that really just leaves Gaz Monos as the nearest competitor to Ben Lang's full house Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens.

The Mk4 Bilstens are unquestionably going to be heavier than the Gaz Monos and offer no damping adjustment whatsoever, they are also a bit less convenient if you need to alter the ride height and offer less range of ride height adjustment too.

But the Mk4 Bilstens are clearly an OEM quality product perhaps leaning towards road use with what I hope will be a long service life, all the other suspension options are highly adjustable but all seem to be leaning more towards track use. The Bilsteins are the the only option to reject the use of rose joints in favour of traditional rubber bushes and to my eye offer the best chassis connection of the lot (at any budget).

While the other options may well have benefited from some TVR specific development time to a lesser or greater extent, only the Bilsteins can boast they were specifically developed to be OEM equipment on TVRs.

Choosing suspension is a tricky business, what I've learnt is you need to be honest with yourself about what you want and how you plan to use the car. Once you've got past that phase of the decision making process you've got to establish a budget your comfortable with to finally settle on the best option for you.

My gut feeling is if you're looking for a high quality road friendly setup with a long service life then the Bilsteins may well be the best option at any price, for those who do a lot of track days and value greater adjustability you might be better off with with Gaz Monos or any of the more expensive options from there up.

Finally were left with the more budget friendly options that offer light weight and adjustability at around the £650 price point, here you're either looking at Protechs or Gaz Gold Pros, both of which will do the job. I ran Gaz Gold pros for years with no major issues, the nose of the car bobbed a bit especially over shuttered concrete motorway surfaces when they were new but this did settle, the ride was firm and overall they seemed to work well but perhaps only within a rather narrow window of axle weight, road surface condition and road speed. Drive the car fast on A roads or the motorway and they worked fine, drive the car on scarred B roads at slower speeds and they showed their lack of damping sophistication which translated to rather crude ride quality.

With all this in mind no matter what suspension you choose we should never lose sight of the fact a TVR is still a separate body bolted to a separate chassis, it doesn't matter how big your suspension budget is you're never going to change this fundamental fact or the Sierra front uprights or the damper inclination or the overall geometry of the car... just by fitting a set of coil overs.

No matter how good your chosen suspension units are they won't turn your TVR into a monocoque chassis design or give you the unparalleled rigidity and NHV advantage a monocoque chassis always delivers over a separate chassis & body design.