Billy Bilsteins
Discussion
ChimpOnGas said:
No matter how good your chosen suspension units are they won't turn your TVR into a monocoque chassis design or give you the unparalleled rigidity and NHV advantage a monocoque chassis always delivers over a separate chassis & body design.
Um, driven some tin monocoque-based convertibles lately? (Or crashed for that matter, they have a tendency to fold in the middle)... As for NVH, the differential and wind noise would be more of a concern 
ChimpOnGas said:
Personally I don't feel the steering improvement thing has anything to do with the very small change in rake, for sure something else its at play here, I've sent Ben an email and asked for his comments as even though it's a massive improvement I still want to fully understand what's truly going on?
My best guess is it centres around what I've been saying all along about the way that big top bush which must surely offer way better chassis location than the pencil thin Gaz Gold Pro aluminium spacers or even the earlier and smaller Bilstein top bushes?
Look again at the surface area of the Gaz spacers where they connect the units to the chassis.
As you can see the diameter of the spacers isn't actually that much bigger that the bolt that passes through them. People who run these units should also check their soft aluminium spacers carefully as wear is very common here. Remove and inspect closely by looking down the bore of the bush, don't be surprised if you observe some ovality, wear that will cause noises and other unwanted traits. Also check your rose joints, I found mine had seized solid and my soft aluminium spacers where the hardened steel bolt passes through them was showing the signs of ovality I describe above.
Now look at the old small bush Billies next to the new big bush version and observe how much more surface area they offer compared with the Gaz or small bush Billies.
That much bigger bush with it's huge steel washer has to provide improvements in the way the unit connects to the chassis, and my guess is the new version Billies were given that big bush upgrade for a very good reason
But at this point it is just an educated guess on my part so lets hear what Ben Lang has to say about why my steering has become so much more connected and direct since fitting my new Billies.
I have to say early indications are I made the right choice here, with a limitless budget I probably would have gone with Intrax or even Ohlins but for a shade under £1000 these new Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens seem to offer the ultimate combination of handling, ride quality and steering feel within that budget.
Buying Nitrons would have cost be about £400 more, with a set of the level one Intrax about £200 more than that, Ohlins take things a step or two further so that really just leaves Gaz Monos as the nearest competitor to Ben Lang's full house Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens.
The Mk4 Bilstens are unquestionably going to be heavier than the Gaz Monos and offer no damping adjustment whatsoever, they are also a bit less convenient if you need to alter the ride height and offer less range of ride height adjustment too.
But the Mk4 Bilstens are clearly an OEM quality product perhaps leaning towards road use with what I hope will be a long service life, all the other suspension options are highly adjustable but all seem to be leaning more towards track use. The Bilsteins are the the only option to reject the use of rose joints in favour of traditional rubber bushes and to my eye offer the best chassis connection of the lot (at any budget).
While the other options may well have benefited from some TVR specific development time to a lesser or greater extent, only the Bilsteins can boast they were specifically developed to be OEM equipment on TVRs.
Choosing suspension is a tricky business, what I've learnt is you need to be honest with yourself about what you want and how you plan to use the car. Once you've got past that phase of the decision making process you've got to establish a budget your comfortable with to finally settle on the best option for you.
My gut feeling is if you're looking for a high quality road friendly setup with a long service life then the Bilsteins may well be the best option at any price, for those who do a lot of track days and value greater adjustability you might be better off with with Gaz Monos or any of the more expensive options from there up.
Finally were left with the more budget friendly options that offer light weight and adjustability at around the £650 price point, here you're either looking at Protechs or Gaz Gold Pros, both of which will do the job. I ran Gaz Gold pros for years with no major issues, the nose of the car bobbed a bit especially over shuttered concrete motorway surfaces when they were new but this did settle, the ride was firm and overall they seemed to work well but perhaps only within a rather narrow window of axle weight, road surface condition and road speed. Drive the car fast on A roads or the motorway and they worked fine, drive the car on scarred B roads at slower speeds and they showed their lack of damping sophistication which translated to rather crude ride quality.
With all this in mind no matter what suspension you choose we should never lose sight of the fact a TVR is still a separate body bolted to a separate chassis, it doesn't matter how big your suspension budget is you're never going to change this fundamental fact or the Sierra front uprights or the damper inclination or the overall geometry of the car... just by fitting a set of coil overs.
No matter how good your chosen suspension units are they won't turn your TVR into a monocoque chassis design or give you the unparalleled rigidity and NHV advantage a monocoque chassis always delivers over a separate chassis & body design.
Excellent review. My best guess is it centres around what I've been saying all along about the way that big top bush which must surely offer way better chassis location than the pencil thin Gaz Gold Pro aluminium spacers or even the earlier and smaller Bilstein top bushes?
Look again at the surface area of the Gaz spacers where they connect the units to the chassis.
As you can see the diameter of the spacers isn't actually that much bigger that the bolt that passes through them. People who run these units should also check their soft aluminium spacers carefully as wear is very common here. Remove and inspect closely by looking down the bore of the bush, don't be surprised if you observe some ovality, wear that will cause noises and other unwanted traits. Also check your rose joints, I found mine had seized solid and my soft aluminium spacers where the hardened steel bolt passes through them was showing the signs of ovality I describe above.
Now look at the old small bush Billies next to the new big bush version and observe how much more surface area they offer compared with the Gaz or small bush Billies.
That much bigger bush with it's huge steel washer has to provide improvements in the way the unit connects to the chassis, and my guess is the new version Billies were given that big bush upgrade for a very good reason
But at this point it is just an educated guess on my part so lets hear what Ben Lang has to say about why my steering has become so much more connected and direct since fitting my new Billies.
I have to say early indications are I made the right choice here, with a limitless budget I probably would have gone with Intrax or even Ohlins but for a shade under £1000 these new Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens seem to offer the ultimate combination of handling, ride quality and steering feel within that budget.
Buying Nitrons would have cost be about £400 more, with a set of the level one Intrax about £200 more than that, Ohlins take things a step or two further so that really just leaves Gaz Monos as the nearest competitor to Ben Lang's full house Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens.
The Mk4 Bilstens are unquestionably going to be heavier than the Gaz Monos and offer no damping adjustment whatsoever, they are also a bit less convenient if you need to alter the ride height and offer less range of ride height adjustment too.
But the Mk4 Bilstens are clearly an OEM quality product perhaps leaning towards road use with what I hope will be a long service life, all the other suspension options are highly adjustable but all seem to be leaning more towards track use. The Bilsteins are the the only option to reject the use of rose joints in favour of traditional rubber bushes and to my eye offer the best chassis connection of the lot (at any budget).
While the other options may well have benefited from some TVR specific development time to a lesser or greater extent, only the Bilsteins can boast they were specifically developed to be OEM equipment on TVRs.
Choosing suspension is a tricky business, what I've learnt is you need to be honest with yourself about what you want and how you plan to use the car. Once you've got past that phase of the decision making process you've got to establish a budget your comfortable with to finally settle on the best option for you.
My gut feeling is if you're looking for a high quality road friendly setup with a long service life then the Bilsteins may well be the best option at any price, for those who do a lot of track days and value greater adjustability you might be better off with with Gaz Monos or any of the more expensive options from there up.
Finally were left with the more budget friendly options that offer light weight and adjustability at around the £650 price point, here you're either looking at Protechs or Gaz Gold Pros, both of which will do the job. I ran Gaz Gold pros for years with no major issues, the nose of the car bobbed a bit especially over shuttered concrete motorway surfaces when they were new but this did settle, the ride was firm and overall they seemed to work well but perhaps only within a rather narrow window of axle weight, road surface condition and road speed. Drive the car fast on A roads or the motorway and they worked fine, drive the car on scarred B roads at slower speeds and they showed their lack of damping sophistication which translated to rather crude ride quality.
With all this in mind no matter what suspension you choose we should never lose sight of the fact a TVR is still a separate body bolted to a separate chassis, it doesn't matter how big your suspension budget is you're never going to change this fundamental fact or the Sierra front uprights or the damper inclination or the overall geometry of the car... just by fitting a set of coil overs.
No matter how good your chosen suspension units are they won't turn your TVR into a monocoque chassis design or give you the unparalleled rigidity and NHV advantage a monocoque chassis always delivers over a separate chassis & body design.
As I have to save my pennies for some time before I start looking at new shocks I'll be interested in your longer term view as time goes on Dave. Keep us informed.
900T-R said:
ChimpOnGas said:
No matter how good your chosen suspension units are they won't turn your TVR into a monocoque chassis design or give you the unparalleled rigidity and NHV advantage a monocoque chassis always delivers over a separate chassis & body design.
Um, driven some tin monocoque-based convertibles lately? (Or crashed for that matter, they have a tendency to fold in the middle)... As for NVH, the differential and wind noise would be more of a concern We all love our TVRs but lets not let that cloud logic and proven engineering fact, by admitting the TVR separate chassis and body arrangement has its limitations and negatives we are not saying the car is poor, we are merely accepting it for what it is. With that out of the way we can set our expectations for what the car really can be with a few well chosen enhancements, better still we can start to enjoy the car better for what it is rather than chasing false hopes it might one day feel and handle like the latest Porsche Boxter.
A Chimaera to me is an old school design with some creature comforts thrown in that made it a saleable proposition against its more modern rivals during the 1990's, but make no mistake the Chimaera is still very old school and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, indeed it's this special character trait that always attracted and drew me back to TVRs.
I see the Chimaera as a fantastic way for a true classic car enthusiast to access a genuine traditional sports car driving experience, the same classic car enthusiast who also has little patience for the downsides all classics come with. Of course if you have access to a big budget you have options, a Frontline MGB or an Eagle E-type would fit the bill perfectly thank you very much. Both are examples of cars that do an excellent job of delivering the perfect combination of back to basics driving pleasure without the irritations and impracticalities of an original 1960's British sports car, but it has to be said they are also frighteningly expensive.
To the guy who dreams of owning a Frontline or an Eagle but can't afford one I say.... "buy a TVR Chimarea because it's already 95% there for a massive chunk of money less". For £12-£13k you can still buy a nice 4.0 litre Chimaera, from this point forward you can make a number of well tested improvements (engine management, brakes, suspension ect ect) all of which can be executed at very reasonable cost.
What you end up with is one of the very best "Improved Classics" for an outlay that's still very much within the budgetary capabilities of mere mortals. I'd love a Ferrari 250swb (which I'd leave as is) a Singer 911 an Eagle E-Type or even a four banger Frontline MGB, but I have to live in the real world, which is why the gradual process of improving and enhancing my TVR Chimaera makes so much sense and delivers so much satisfaction every time I make it a fraction better
Ok so I've just invested £1000.00 in the Mk4 Tuscan "S" Bilsteins which is still no small sum of money, but early indications are I've delivered the biggest improvement in the way car feels on the road and in my hands for what we should accept these days represents a very reasonable outlay. Its also figure that is very much in line with the car's current market value and was probably the best value path to achieving my hope for a more sophisticated and compliant road friendly ride while retaining the car's great handling.
I'm only able to report on my personal experiences and how I genuinely feel about my new Mk4 Bilsteins, others may want something very different from their TVR and have a different budget to work with so will likely make different choices. Choice is a wonderful thing but what people expect from their suspension will vary significantly from one man to the next, I say each to their own because fortunately the TVR community is one of the few in the car world that embraces everyone and their differing tastes and expectations.
Long may this continue.. and long may TVRs remain affordable so they stay within the grasp of us all
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Maybe they feel so good because those Gaz shock absorbers are s..t.
All I can say is the 1000 quid Nitrons are brilliant ..
Daza mate, as far as I can tell Nitrons aren't £1000 any more and haven't been for a long while mate, they're £1050 plus the 20% VAT making them £1260 add the postage gives you the real total price of £1275.00... and that's direct from Nitron. I did look at the Nitrons but couldn't be sure if they really would be a whole £278.76 better for my specific needs than my £958.80 (all in) Mk4 Tuscan "S" specially valved to my car Billies?All I can say is the 1000 quid Nitrons are brilliant ..
http://www.nitron.co.uk/catalogue_item.php
I figured as I never do track days, I wanted to get away from rose joints and I just don't need all that adjustability the Nitrons offer I would be better off saving nearly £300 and going with the cheaper but OEM quality option from Bilstein, I wouldn't mind betting once you got your Nitrons how you liked them you never really tweaked them much again? All I was really looking to achieve here was a more refined "on the road" ride in a quality straightforward set of units for under £1,000.00 that were already properly set up for my car straight out of the box.
In summary while I'm in no doubt Nitrons are great they are most definitely £1275.00, so £278.76 more expensive than my new Billies even if you buy them direct from Nitron, so far my simple Billies seem to be giving me everything I'd hoped for and more so I'm confident I chose well.
Anyone interested in a reconditioned set of Gaz Gold Pros?
To be honest I think we were all brainwashed, being told that Billies are old and out of date and probably just needed an overhaul.
Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
SILICONEKID345HP said:
To be honest I think we were all brainwashed, being told that Billies are old and out of date and probably just needed an overhaul.
Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
Even the Mono's ! That's surprising as I thought they were supposed to be pretty good. Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
Fashion and trends are things we all fall for because we don't know anything else, follow the crowd and all that, safe in numbers.
The fact is if you want to go tracking your car you need to rack up the damping to levels unusable on the average British road so you have to have adjustables.
As Dave pointed out he doesn't go on race tracks and is looking for a different kind of damping,
I'd like to try Mono's but the Bilstein big bush shocks do seem the way to go if you mainly use the car on the roads.
The more I think about the realities of the small bush shocks and spacers etc, it makes perfect sense you'll have less space for movement with the Bilsteins which then makes all the rose jointed options less desirable? Hmm.
I've been thinking of going to Billies for ages, just like my Brembo Brakes, the quality shines through and it wouldn't matter what they cost if they work properly.
My mates Porsche rear shocks collapsed, what a palarva getting that repaired, I can't even tell you which damn Porsche it is, ceramic brakes etc 996 maybe, anyway that cost over a Grand to sort two springs out.
We have to be realistic when talking about £900-1300 shocks.
It matters to me so much, I grew up around Jags, I'd pay out £3000 if I thought it would work. I want to drive my car and it handle and take bumps, get that somewhere near right and it's a car to keep for ever.
The truth is the more expensive they get the more race influenced many seem to be, not what I'm looking for and actually Bilstein are the best solution available for my needs. Price, often dictated by the opposition,
After market is fashionable, Bilstein have great history our cars can't be their biggest challenge Shirley
Edited by ClassiChimi on Monday 21st November 21:36
Ben's response...
The ride height looks about right, it's something a little tricky to get right without having the car to hand with a non-standard car like yours. If you find you do more running with full boot, you could lift it a notch on the rear dampers, I would leave the fronts as they are.
With regard to your steering, I expect the improvement is due to a change in ride height that has modified your toe settings to something more favourable to make yout tyres work better. May be worth measuring toe settings front & rear & sticking to those for future set-up. Beyond that, it may be improvement in damping giving better corner control, with a knock effect to the bump steer & roll control. As you say it's a bit tricky to understand why the change is so dramatic. It's probably a mixture of things, rather than just one factor.
The ride height looks about right, it's something a little tricky to get right without having the car to hand with a non-standard car like yours. If you find you do more running with full boot, you could lift it a notch on the rear dampers, I would leave the fronts as they are.
With regard to your steering, I expect the improvement is due to a change in ride height that has modified your toe settings to something more favourable to make yout tyres work better. May be worth measuring toe settings front & rear & sticking to those for future set-up. Beyond that, it may be improvement in damping giving better corner control, with a knock effect to the bump steer & roll control. As you say it's a bit tricky to understand why the change is so dramatic. It's probably a mixture of things, rather than just one factor.
SILICONEKID345HP said:
To be honest I think we were all brainwashed, being told that Billies are old and out of date and probably just needed an overhaul.
Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
To balance this, I have had both the gold pros and the monos. Very pleased with both of them. The monos have more adjustment and both have excellent damping in my opinion. I have had the cars,properly set up and used them on road and track. Im experienced when it comes to Gaz.
Ive had Gaz Nickels ,Gaz Gold and the Monos .
All were very disappointing .
Hours and hours of messing and very poor after sales service .
The service has also been exceptional. I wasn't happy with the springs and they fitted/changed them at no expense to me and I wasn't sure about something else over a year later and they put the car on the ramps and checked everything for me.
I live within an hour of the factory so that helps but they seem easy to deal with.
Yes I know it isn't a Chim but I've always been a fan of Bilsteins and used them on various rally cars.
I fitted Griff billies to my S1. Needed convert them to height adjustable with Rally Design kits. Complete with uprated springs. I'm happy with the road manners.
Yes I need to clean and lube the threads.
I fitted Griff billies to my S1. Needed convert them to height adjustable with Rally Design kits. Complete with uprated springs. I'm happy with the road manners.
Yes I need to clean and lube the threads.
Edited by magpies on Monday 21st November 23:44
Edited by magpies on Monday 21st November 23:46
My turn.
I have used old Bilsteins, Gaz Nickels, Gaz Gold Pros and Racing Reds. All good, Racing Reds the best of those, but I want the adjustability for both road and track use.
I have heard only good things about the new Bilsteins.
Mat Smith won the Dunlop a European TVR challenge this year on Gaz Monos.
Racing Reds come from Nitron.
Anything is an improvement over knackered, weeping dampers of any sort. Choose the degree of adjustability to suit your purpose and driving ability.
I have used old Bilsteins, Gaz Nickels, Gaz Gold Pros and Racing Reds. All good, Racing Reds the best of those, but I want the adjustability for both road and track use.
I have heard only good things about the new Bilsteins.
Mat Smith won the Dunlop a European TVR challenge this year on Gaz Monos.
Racing Reds come from Nitron.
Anything is an improvement over knackered, weeping dampers of any sort. Choose the degree of adjustability to suit your purpose and driving ability.
Just to say after 7 months intensive testing I am happy to report my new Mk2 Tuscan 'S' Bilsteins are the absolute mutt's nuts 
I'm also running Honda drop links on the front and Mondeo links on the rear which I fitted around the same time, these links were cheap and are proving excellent too.
Compared with rose jointed drop links, and the rose jointed Gaz Gold Pros (newly refurbished Gaz Gold Pros at that), the ride has been transformed for the better, all the nasty noises are gone and the car is genuinely real world faster on real world road surfaces.
Unfashionable as it may be in this age of low profile tyres I also run rubber that actually has air in them, here are my chosen sizes (Uniroyal Rainsport 2's).
Front: 205/50 R16
Rear: 225/55 R16
So with big balloon bouncy castle tyres, non adjustable suspension with rubber bushes rather than rose joints, and a departure from rose jointed drop links too, you might assume my boulevard cruising gas powered Chimaera handles like a boat. We'll you'd be wrong, I've found because the car's ride is smoother and more refined I can cover ground on normal roads much much faster.
Rather than banging and crashing over bumps the suspension and tyres now soak them up, which after all is exactly what suspension is meant to do. The car still corners hard and flat on a spirited drive and handles like a proper sports car should, grip is actually increased because the tyres aren't skipping over the road surface, they're in contact with it which means not only am I enjoying a better ride but the car sticks to the road like never before.
My fat tyre wall and rubber bushed nonadjustable Bilstein combo may not suit everyone, but for anyone who enjoys their TVR in the real world on our real world broken roads I can highly recommend flying in the face of fashion and treating your Chimaera to a high quality and complaint road focused suspension, tyre & drop link setup.
I'm also running Honda drop links on the front and Mondeo links on the rear which I fitted around the same time, these links were cheap and are proving excellent too.
Compared with rose jointed drop links, and the rose jointed Gaz Gold Pros (newly refurbished Gaz Gold Pros at that), the ride has been transformed for the better, all the nasty noises are gone and the car is genuinely real world faster on real world road surfaces.
Unfashionable as it may be in this age of low profile tyres I also run rubber that actually has air in them, here are my chosen sizes (Uniroyal Rainsport 2's).
Front: 205/50 R16
Rear: 225/55 R16
So with big balloon bouncy castle tyres, non adjustable suspension with rubber bushes rather than rose joints, and a departure from rose jointed drop links too, you might assume my boulevard cruising gas powered Chimaera handles like a boat. We'll you'd be wrong, I've found because the car's ride is smoother and more refined I can cover ground on normal roads much much faster.
Rather than banging and crashing over bumps the suspension and tyres now soak them up, which after all is exactly what suspension is meant to do. The car still corners hard and flat on a spirited drive and handles like a proper sports car should, grip is actually increased because the tyres aren't skipping over the road surface, they're in contact with it which means not only am I enjoying a better ride but the car sticks to the road like never before.
My fat tyre wall and rubber bushed nonadjustable Bilstein combo may not suit everyone, but for anyone who enjoys their TVR in the real world on our real world broken roads I can highly recommend flying in the face of fashion and treating your Chimaera to a high quality and complaint road focused suspension, tyre & drop link setup.
I've had the standard mk4 bilsteins on for about a month - huge improvement over the originals after 19yrs! With new wishbones, bushes, ball joints it's all gone very quiet and smooth and feels really planted. The drop links were the only suspension part I didn't replaced - have you got part numbers?
Thanks
Andrew
Thanks
Andrew
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