Spark plugs

Spark plugs

Author
Discussion

blitzracing

6,387 posts

219 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Fair enough- Ive never used MA services at all, so cant pass comment, but cracking the 14cux code is now far beyond just mapping. I can Map the 14CUX myself easy enough now, its really not that difficult, and Im happy with the results I have, it all works pretty well, but Ive not pushed the ECU outside its comfort zone, and freeing the ECU from lambda control makes things work a whole lot better. The joys of pre catalyst.

Edited by blitzracing on Wednesday 7th December 11:44

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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To bring balance, if any is needed, when my car was converted to a 5 litre engine I was having issues with the car going horribly lean over 4600 rpm, which is not ideal if you are a track day nut like me. I was and still am using the 14 CUX. At 4600 rpm the AFR suddenly shot up from around 12 to over 20.

Various people had a go at solving the issue without success.
I had already changed the AFM to a 20 AM, increased the fuel pressure, changed the injectors to Bosch Red Top and the plenum to a single throttle 72mm version in an effort to remove any restrictions to air and fuel flow.

I called Mark Adams and over the next few days had several long (and free) phone calls with him, trying various things long-distance to see if we could solve the issue. He never made any claims about his abilities with the 14 CUX, but when we couldn't solve it over the phone he just said that he would have a proper look if I wished and thought that he could solve the issue.
I booked the car in with him at the rolling road place in Shrewsbury he uses.
He spent an entire afternoon diagnosing at great length, ending up with a road test having remapped the chip.
The only thing he couldn't solve was the car's annoying habit of stalling at junctions when hot.

I have since had the mapping independently checked by Jools and confirmed as being pretty well perfect throughout the rev range.



Mark wasn't expensive either - he charged me either £50 or £60 per hour plus VAT (cannot remember which), and didn't charge for all his time, nor for the previous phone calls. My bill from him was well under £200, including a new fuel pressure regulator. What cost the money was the greedy rolling road he used, who charged me for every second my car was in their premises, a total bill of over £400.

The stalling issue, by the way, was eventually solved free of charge by V8 Developments. My original stepper motor had become temperature sensitive. Rob eliminated everything else, decided it had to be the stepper, went and found an original TVR one from his box of bits, fitted it, and problem solved. He spent well over an hour on the car and wouldn't take a penny in payment.

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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By the way, the previous graph was at the wheels, before anyone wonders why i was happy with a 255bhp 5 litre. The fly graphs are below:



blitzracing

6,387 posts

219 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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The expense is really a legacy issue, as you used to pay £400 for one of his chips, then an hourly rate plus roller time to trim it to fit your car- that always seemed a bit much to me, as you could simply stick with the TVR chip / map and simply modify that as need be without the MA chip in the first place, but you cant argue with his business model, Im sure he has done very well out of it. I doubt chipping the 14CUX provides any significant income these days, although RPI and the MGR guys still seem to promote the Tornado, but they are catching on fast to open source.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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smile



Bit busy at the mo but I can't wait to fit these.
I'll update when I've plugged em in smile

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Qbee's experience is clearly one of the circumstances where MA can genuinely add value, he certainly knows his 14CUX as I've taken great care to point out in my previous posts. It's just a shame the man will also take your money where any value he can add is very likely to be the best part of fek all.

I think its common knowledge if you've upgraded to a tuned 5.0 litre you're really going to need bigger injectors, this should come as no surprise as when pushing 300+ HP you are a huge margin above the power output of the Range Rover these injectors are intended for. Once you've installed your bigger injectors you're clearly going to need to rescale your fuel map, it's not rocket science! While the solution to this rescaling is just a few key strokes away with an after market ECU, you are/were kind of forced to go to MA if you're still on the 14CUX.

If however (like me) you have a 4.0 litre and just wanted the best from it, paying a man to snooze in your car and do nothing with the fuelling is not really what I'd call a great value proposition, then being put under pressure to have newly cleaned and flow matched injectors removed, re-cleaned and refitted starts to feel very much like a very well rehearsed scam that's been played out on the same premises a hundred times before.

Finally watching the man who claims to tune TVRs fail to solve a simple hunting condition when you've coughed up a big chunk of money is really massively taking the pish, but hey what do I know?

I've got no special axe to grind with MA, the man is a distant bad memory for me and a bad memory my Canems system ensures I no longer need to revisit, I can only share my MA experience with fellow TVR enthusiasts on this forum and present the facts exactly as they stand... and I only do so in the hope others don't waste their money as I did frown

N7GTX

7,823 posts

142 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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ChimpOnGas said:
Sometimes people spend a lot of energy trying to prove someone is wrong, when all they really need to do is accept moving on from the dreadfully inappropriate NGK B7ECS can only be a good thing rolleyes
If we were to believe all the nonsense posted by 'experts' on these forums we would be seriously confused. rolleyes
Following this post and being at odds with the information provided by NGK on their website for their products, I decided to contact NGK technical directly and spoke to a proper 'expert' who knows what he's talking about. No doubt I will be accused of spending a lot of energy trying to prove others are wrong. After you read the NGK explanation, you can make up your own mind. yes

Well, after our 26 minute conversation, I can tell you categorically and definitively that fitting the BPR6EIX plug is certainly NOT recommended by NGK. The heat shroud is similar meaning similar dissipation of heat - good; if the car is tracked and the hotter plug overheats you risk the chance of pre-ignition with catastrophic results; the J shape shroud in extreme (trackday) scenarios could break off and damage the engine - combustion vibration.

I explained to NGK that some cars were still running a distributor and single coil, some were running more advanced ECUs with separate coils and some were supercharged and turbocharged.

If you are driving the car in traffic and rarely using any revs then fitting a hotter plug could be a solution to fouling. If you drive the car a bit harder, track it, race it, or have forced induction then you must not fit a 6 rated plug.

However, there is a solution that NGK suggest that would be a much better compromise. They recommend you fit BR7EIX which is a completely different plug from the BKR6EIX. The advantages of the BR7EIX are that the plug has better heat dissipation, is much more resistant to combustion vibration, does not have the J shape shroud and has the better heat range for a V8. It has the durability advantages of the iridium construction for longer life and a more reliable spark.

Would I fit a BKR6EIX??? Absolutely not. Would I fit a BR7EIX as recommended by NGK Technical??? Absolutely!!!

If you still agree with the nonsense written previously, then you can call NGK Technical on 01442 281000. Very helpful and knowledgeable people. thumbup

Edited by N7GTX on Wednesday 7th December 16:01


Edited by N7GTX on Wednesday 7th December 16:24

WokingWedger

Original Poster:

1,030 posts

204 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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I didn't say the above ?

N7GTX

7,823 posts

142 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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WokingWedger said:
I didn't say the above ?
No, I didn't mean you did. The quotation was in the wrong place! I'll edit it.
There, thats better thumbup

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
N7GTX said:
If we were to believe all the nonsense posted by 'experts' on these forums we would be seriously confused. rolleyes
Following this post and being at odds with the information provided by NGK on their website for their products, I decided to contact NGK technical directly and spoke to a proper 'expert' who knows what he's talking about. No doubt I will be accused of spending a lot of energy trying to prove others are wrong. After you read the NGK explanation, you can make up your own mind. yes

Well, after our 26 minute conversation, I can tell you categorically and definitively that fitting the BKR6EIX plug is certainly NOT recommended by NGK. The heat shroud is smaller meaning less dissipation of heat; if the car is tracked and the plug overheats you risk the chance of pre-ignition with catastrophic results; the J shape shroud in extreme (trackday) scenarios could break off and damage the engine - combustion vibration.

I explained to NGK that some cars were still running a distributor and single coil, some were running more advanced ECUs with separate coils and some were supercharged and turbocharged.

If you are driving the car in traffic and rarely using any revs then fitting a hotter plug could be a solution to fouling. If you drive the car a bit harder, track it, race it, or have forced induction then you must not fit a 6 rated plug.

However, there is a solution that NGK suggest that would be a much better compromise. They recommend you fit BR7EIX which is a completely different plug from the BKR6EIX. The advantages of the BR7EIX are that the plug has better heat dissipation, is much more resistant to combustion vibration, does not have the J shape shroud and has the better heat range for a V8. It has the durability advantages of the iridium construction for longer life and a more reliable spark.

Would I fit a BKR6EIX??? Absolutely not. Would I fit a BR7EIX as recommended by NGK Technical??? Absolutely!!!

If you still agree with the nonsense written previously, then you can call NGK Technical on 01442 281000. Very helpful and knowledgeable people. thumbup
Yours is a Turbo car Iain, are you referring to your car alone or N/A too?

Your referring to BKR6EIX
The ones I've received are BPR6EIX
Are these the same?
Are these the wrong plug according to NGK ?

N7GTX

7,823 posts

142 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Hi Al, should have said BPR not BKR - my typo rolleyes

NGK did not differentiate between NA and FI engines. They said B7ECS were the correct plugs due to the design and heat range for the TVR V8. It is partly to do with the dissipation of heat in a V8 being better than say, a Mitsubishi Evo being a 2 litre with 300bhp. They would never agree to fitting a plug rated at 6 unless the driver was only tootling around and was constantly in traffic at slow speed. They said a hotter plug may cure the fouling - nothing to do with the design.
The main problem was if you overheated a hotter plug you risked pre-ignition which could damage the engine so on that basis alone they could not recommend it.
Their solution was to fit the BR7EIX to keep the heat range the same and to ensure the J shape shroud was not present in case of combustion shock causing catastrophic damage to the engine if the shroud started to break up.
As far as FI engines go, they said they would even try an 8 rated plug possibly a 9 to ensure the plug did not overheat under the most extreme situations.
HTH wink

Edited by N7GTX on Wednesday 7th December 16:21

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Well you've certainly gone to a lot of trouble there, so thanks thumbup

What's puzzling me is NGK themselves specify the BPR6EIX plug as a direct fit for the P38 Range Rover and as a replacement for the other plug they've always recommended for the Rover V8 engine IE the BPR6ES. Could it be your NGK guy looked up the recommended plug for the TVR Chimaera and found it said B7ECS in his reference tables, I very much suspect that's exactly what happened here.

With that on the table we now need to understand who actually originally specified the B7ECS, was it NGK? No, it wasn't, it was TVR who clearly took a perfect plug for the Tuscan Challenge series and specified it for the use in their road going Rover V8 cars without really giving any consideration to the very different state of tune a Tuscan Challenge RV8 is in and it's expected use.

If you're sat at WOT at 5,500rpm on the track for 30 unbroken minutes or more you most certainly need B7ECS, if you're using your TVR on the road and so subjecting it to idling in traffic jams ect you are far far better off with a 6, and there's absolutely no arguing this point.

Could it be, supported by his reference tables your NGK guy when he here's the letters TVR starts imagining some sort of highly strung and highly tuned sports car? yes everyone knows they're a noisy car so it's easy to see why most may also assume a TVR is some sort of fire breathing race car, but as we all know the RV8 in a TVR road car was far closer related to what you got in a Range Rover than the engine that came in a Tuscan Challenge car.

I think what were seeing here is a well meaning NGK technical guy who's firstly being somewhat mislead by his reference tables and so the original mistake made by TVR to specify the B7ECS for their road cars. Further driven by his understandable lack of knowledge of what 99% of RV8 TVR road engines really are he plays it safe and sticks with what essentially TVR told everyone was right, and as we all know TVR was always right... NOT!

With very few exceptions the Chimaera engine is to all intense and purposes a Range Rover lump with a slightly more progressive cam and maybe some porting work if you bought a 4.3 or a 5.0 litre variant, it's not really a engine that demands the B7ECS unless (as I've been careful to point out many times before) you're putting a blower on it or thrashing the living hell out of it every day on the track.

V8 Developments certainly know their RV8s and build some pretty strong ones too, when I spoke with Rob Robertson about plug choice he was 100% clear his engines (to be used mostly on the street with some track day use) always leave him with a set of BPR6ES because this is the plug he recommends. Now consider NGK themselves promote the BPR6EIX as a direct upgrade and replacement to the BPR6ES and you can rest assured (forced induction and endurance racing aside) it's a perfectly safe plug in what is essentially an ancient old low compression, low revving, and by modern standards a very cool running engine indeed.

Thanks for taking the time to call NGK but for all the above reasons what you've uncovered is rather meaningless, an expert is only as good as the information he has to hand and the details you are able to provide him with, if the book says B7ECS because TVR got it wrong you can hardly blame a man who knows little or nothing about the lowly state of tune 9% of all TVR RV8s destined for the road actually came in, and so you can hardly blame the man for recommending the BR7EIX.

Finally and just to be 100% clear, none of us with a regular normally aspirated RV8 used on the road should be scared off of using the BpR6EIX. The V8 Developments evidence and all my other inarguable points aside how it it possible I can I say this with such confidence? well I literally put thousands of miles on a set of BPR6EIX in my 4.0HC Chimaera while it was still on petrol only and all I saw were improvements.

Dave.


Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 7th December 16:33

N7GTX

7,823 posts

142 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
The technical guy at NGK was not the first person I spoke to there who gives out the sort of information an ordinary customer requires. I got through to the technical guy who was not reading off a prepared sales blurb. This chap knew exactly what he was talking about.
The BPR plug has better heat dissipation as opposed to the BKR which is smaller and so cannot move the heat as quickly. He agreed that a driver who just drove around town without revving the engine would probably be okay with a 6 as he would not be stressing the engine. This is the ONLY fact we agree on. However for the reasons given in my previous post, NGK would not recommend the 6.

The problem is that a lot of owners will at some time give their car a good thrashing and this has the potential to overheat a hotter plug. NGK were adamant on this point that the risk of overheating a hotter plug was an absolute no-go due to pre-ignition and engine damage. Additionally the combustion shock can break the J shape shroud which NGK admits has happened. Therefore, even if they are taking a safe route, that for me is the way to go.

Their solution of the BR7EIX was to counteract any possible risks and as owners such as Classicchimi(Al) and QBee(Anthony) do track their cars from time to time, thereby stressing their engines, they must in my opinion make an informed decision after reading the facts supplied by the manufacturer (NGK) and not one based on one person's use of one type of spark plug.

I should also add that Powers recommend and use the B7ECS after speaking with Dom and who has to provide a warranty. If the plug is good enough for NGK and Powers, I will stick with it. However, as the BR7EIX is more durable with all the benefits of the old B7ECS then I will consider using it next year when the service is due. However, I will ask Dom for permission first.

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
I have never had the problems you/NGK list, despite giving my BPR6EIX plugs a good thrashing on hot track days.
But at the same time I am all ears, as I certainly don't want such problems.

The Iridium 6s do run better in my car, which is used 85% around town and country, 15% on track, than the specified B7 ECS. If/when I bolt a turbo onto the car i will go for the Iridium 7s as advised above.

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
This one is puzzling me too scratchchin

N7GTX said:
NGK would never agree to fitting a plug rated at 6 unless the driver was only tootling around and was constantly in traffic at slow speed.
Which is of course total bolax, and here's why...

Our old friend the the BPR6ES which lets be clear is probably the most ubiquitous plug of all time ever, has also always been the NGK recommended plug for sedate pedestrian machines from the Aston Martin DB5 to far later fuel injected cars such as the BMW 325i. I've fitted thousands of them to everything from Jag E-Types to 1960's Porsche 911s, not because I guessed they were right but because the NGK book tells me the BPR6ES is right for these cars.

Trust me these cars were never designed to tootle around constantly in traffic at slow speed, a 6 has and always will be the go to heat rating for cars used on the road and many very fast ones at that. I've seen many a works Healey cook its head screaming around a rally stage using the good old BPR6ES, and even if it's dropped a valve and the head is scrap the first thing we would do is whip out the BPR6ES plugs to be used another day... because they were always fine and well known 100% proven to be absolutely fekin bullet proof.

NGK did specify a 5 for early Range Rovers running SUs but if you study the book you'll see they immediately changed this to the BPR6ES as soon as the flapper injection system came along, and for good reason, they then stuck with that plug right up to the final days of the RV8 with the Thor equipped Rangies.

As I keep pointing out NGK themselves recommend the BPR6EIX (not the BKR6EIX) as a direct upgrade to the BPR6ES and so every car they ever said should run on a set of BPR6ES can run BPR6EIX, which lets face it is literally thousands of vehicles that are expected to be driven in lots of different ways, using a vast array of engine configurations, capacities and numbers of cylinders. So that means anything and everything fitted with one of, (if not the) most common spark plugs in the world (the BPR6ES) can now happily run the BPR6EIX with absolutely no risk whatsoever..... period!

Call your NGK guy again and take him through what a TVR Chimaera RV8 engine is really all about, present him with my vast body of evidence, then quote his own reference books back at him quoting the multitude of cars many of which were most definitely never designed to tootle around constantly in traffic at slow speed, I think you'll find you'll get an acceptance of my position and a very different answer to his first one yes

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 7th December 17:46

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Please keep debating and researching guys, please keep it friendly. We who are reading your deliberations are learning loads. clap

blitzracing

6,387 posts

219 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
ClassiChimi said:
smile



Bit busy at the mo but I can't wait to fit these.
I'll update when I've plugged em in smile
You have to be the ideal man to fix the questions surrounding these plugs- you can get your local MOT place to do a gas test back to back between the different plug types and see if the emissions change to prove better running? My local garage charges about £15 just for the gas test.

ClassiChimi

12,424 posts

148 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
blitzracing said:
You have to be the ideal man to fix the questions surrounding these plugs- you can get your local MOT place to do a gas test back to back between the different plug types and see if the emissions change to prove better running? My local garage charges about £15 just for the gas test.
I'm hardly the "ideal man" hehe
Funny you say that Mark, the idea of scrabbling about under my car in the wet to change my oil sender and filter ain't doing it for me so I'll be using the very garage that did my MOT emissions just a few months ago so yes I can do back to back tests. I'll simply get car upto temps, do mine as with 7's already in the car then try the Iridium ones straight away. Ouch, burn, scold but for you Boys I'd do anything hehe

What am I looking for?
So basically it should burn more completely on the iridium so the emissions should be lower, that's a task as mine are very low already!
Will do and I'll report back smile

Pupp

12,206 posts

271 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Crikey, where do I start...? hehe

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

230 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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Im wondering if he is the same guy I spoke to a few years back .

I asked him if I could go from the race plug to BPR7ES

HE SAID NOT UNLESS YOU HAD YOUR TIMING CHANGED TO SUIT THE PROJECTED TIP .