New Emerald to be.
Discussion
It uses the GEMS AFM which is much bigger than the standard TVR one, good for about 400bhp (Mark can do you a bigger one if you really need it), and it uses the standard stepper motor. I don't think I made the cutoff for January's issue but it should be in Feb 
Again, depending on interest I will do an installation guide for Mark which will help anyone who wants to do the conversion on their cars. It's been far too long that this technology has been around and unused by the TVR fraternity so I'm going to try and make it a little easier for everyone - it's really not as hard as people make out but definitely worth the effort!
Again, depending on interest I will do an installation guide for Mark which will help anyone who wants to do the conversion on their cars. It's been far too long that this technology has been around and unused by the TVR fraternity so I'm going to try and make it a little easier for everyone - it's really not as hard as people make out but definitely worth the effort!motul1974 said:
About 1k would be great as I'm currently looking at 2.5k for the emerald.I could fit one to my RRC at the same time...so I'd be very interested.
£1k in parts if you use second hand Range Rover bits, more if you use new items obviously but it's still not loads of money. A kit with a bespoke loom obviously I've no idea on price - it will depend on costs and numbers but it will be a few quid but if an Emerald is £2.5k plus setup costs then there's some headroom to play with. I've also not included installation, but if we put a kit together then it could be fairly straghtforward to do...That sounds very interesting indeed Nick. As you know I have spoken to Mark about GEMS at length in the past. The issue for me has always been my older type non-crossbolted block with no knock sensor bosses. Very pleased to hear yours has been a success, it does sound like a blinding solution and ideal for a road car.
So the big question then. Drivability aside which makes more power and torque? GEMS or Emerald?
So the big question then. Drivability aside which makes more power and torque? GEMS or Emerald?
Matthew Poxon said:
That sounds very interesting indeed Nick. As you know I have spoken to Mark about GEMS at length in the past. The issue for me has always been my older type non-crossbolted block with no knock sensor bosses. Very pleased to hear yours has been a success, it does sound like a blinding solution and ideal for a road car.
So the big question then. Drivability aside which makes more power and torque? GEMS or Emerald?
I haven't measured it yet but GEMS will make more as it can get closer to the limit with individual cylinder trims and knock sensing!So the big question then. Drivability aside which makes more power and torque? GEMS or Emerald?
motul1974 said:
Also a factor....2500'ish get a brand new and fully set up system.....just playing devil's advocate!
True but as I've found out, it's never "set up". The guy mapping it can never replicate all driving conditions at all temperatures at different altitudes and blah blah blah, it's not possible, so they have to guess a lot of it as all mappers do. And this is why they are never as refined as OEM ECUs where manufacturers have conducted hot and cold weather testing and use very expensive dynos to fully map to all areas in all conditions. Every time I had my Emerald mapped I would find holes or lumps in the map somewhere at some point, and if anything wears or moves out of calibration on your engine, or if you change anything at all, it needs to be re-mapped so that's an instant £300 and a day of your time. The beauty of GEMS is there are no holes in the map, and everything is constantly adjusted for either wear or a change in conditions or even a new cam, no lost day and no £300 spent!This is where Mark needs to pull his finger out really and start selling these as a package with all the parts you need. Maybe even offer a drive in - drive out service as an option as well.
JE sell a nice loom for the 14CUX with double insulated wire and heat shrunk connections etc. If Mark commissioned a similar loom then I think this would be a winner.
JE sell a nice loom for the 14CUX with double insulated wire and heat shrunk connections etc. If Mark commissioned a similar loom then I think this would be a winner.
Matthew Poxon said:
This is where Mark needs to pull his finger out really and start selling these as a package with all the parts you need. Maybe even offer a drive in - drive out service as an option as well.
JE sell a nice loom for the 14CUX with double insulated wire and heat shrunk connections etc. If Mark commissioned a similar loom then I think this would be a winner.
This is the plan, there were two main issues with it; one was the loom and the other was the method of reading cam position. I have developed a small trigger wheel with Mike Timm and have had a load of extras made which I'll give to Mark (easy to fit behind the timing cover), so that solves the cam position issue, then the loom is pretty easy - the components all exist and Mark has a loom guy who can make them, he just needs the measurements and some demand for them. I have now worked out the measurements so just need some demand and then a kit should be doable.JE sell a nice loom for the 14CUX with double insulated wire and heat shrunk connections etc. If Mark commissioned a similar loom then I think this would be a winner.
motul1974 said:
I wonder how if fairs on lpg?
I guess that depends on whether a 45mpg TVR that performs and drives way better than a petrol 14CUX floats your boat?Being OBD you simply plug in a modern LPG ECU, and some of better quality new breed of OBD LPG piggybacks are very good indeed. Add this to the fact the Lucas-Sagem GEMS system is proper fully sequential system (my Canems dual fuel system is still old school batch fired) and I'd say it would work brilliantly on gas, it would be cheap to convert too.
If you're starting with a Chimaera that's already had the Lucas-Sagem GEMS system fitted you could probably achieve the LPG conversion for £1,200 as a drive in drive out deal, and that's using top end Hanna injectors and the extremely well regarded LPG Tech OBD 8 cylinder LPG piggyback ECU.
http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/8cyl-ecu-lpgtech-tech-328...
Not sure if your question was a gag or not, but the answer is LPG and a lovely driving 45-50mpg Chimaera is very easy to achieve if you've got a Lucas-Sagem GEMS system fitted
If you get the MA Tornado chip is that just to get around the antitheft coding or is it also a performance chip making the ecu learn it's map in a 'performance' way rather than the stump pulling extra-safe autobox RR way that it was originally designed to do? Raise rev limits, cope with wild cams etc? Is it just the 4.5/4.6 block that has the knock sensor facility?
Looking forward to the Sprint article - sounds very interesting.
Looking forward to the Sprint article - sounds very interesting.
More than just an unlock.
http://www.tornadosystems.com/product/land-rover-g...
Details from Mark's website:
The Lucas-Sagem GEMS system is one of the most sophisticated Rover V8 engine management systems available. It responds exceptionally well to a software upgrade. The software upgrade itself is carried in a pair of EPROM chips to replace the existing ones within the ECU.
As you would expect, the upgrades are fully compatible with the standard vehicle diagnostic and security systems. Service and fault diagnosis procedures are unaltered, and the upgrade is undetectable to Land Rover TestBook. For both 4.0 and 4.6 engines you gain approximately 10-15BHP, and the engine will rev much more smoothly and eagerly. Improvements in fuel economy of 10-15% should also be seen.
Normally these engines are not very interested in revving much further than 4500RPM, and they also feature a flat spot on full load between 1750 and 3250RPM. Most of the available response is seen on the first and last 25% of the throttle pedal travel, whilst the 50% in the middle doesn’t make much difference.
Such characteristics are not unique to the Lucas-Sagem system. This behaviour is displayed by most modern cars, which have to comply with very tough exhaust emission legislation as the first priority. Emission standards for manufacturers are so demanding that they need to use every trick in the book to ensure compliance.
Many other operating characteristics are addressed. These include idle speed, idle stability, shift patterns, cold starting, crank fuelling, rev limit, etc. Even the rate of engine acceleration is controlled by the ECU, and this too has received attention to make the response more sporty.
Therefore this is a thorough treatment of the entire set of operating characteristics that goes far beyond ignition or fuelling adjustments. GEMS systems have two computers in the ECU, hence this is a two-chip solution.
How does it work?
Modern cars are also developed to be suitable for sale in very large world territories without modification (e.g. Europe, North America, etc.,). Therefore they need to cope with very poor quality fuel in some territories, and extreme operating conditions. This must all be achieved without suffering engine damage, so they are engineered for worst-case scenarios.
Since we already know the vehicle territory and conditions, some of the compromises that are necessary to the manufacturers may be removed during the upgrade process.
The toughest emission test to pass is the warm-up phase, where most of the unwanted emissions are produced. This test gets more difficult to pass as engine capacity increases.
To assist with this part of the cycle, the engine is run with part-load ignition advance that leads to quick catalyst warm-up. A natural consequence of this is that the engine loses efficiency, which is bad for economy. Fortunately for us this situation can be easily corrected with only a marginal increase in catalyst warm-up time, and no effect on warm operation. The pay-off is a big improvement in fuel consumption!
Typically there is an improvement in fuel economy of approximately 10-15%. This is partly because the car has much more mid-range torque, so it does not need to be driven so hard. You should see a minimum of 10% improvement (on a healthy vehicle) no matter how you drive it.
Under high engine load and speed conditions, there is the danger of detonation and pre-ignition. This can have a disastrous effect on the pistons if it is allowed to persist. The Lucas-Sagem GEMS system features a very sophisticated knock detection system to detect and correct this situation. Each cylinder is monitored and mapped individually in real time.
However in an aluminium engine such as the Rover V8, there is so much mechanical noise transmitted through the block at high load and speed that it becomes difficult to detect the onset of this condition. The manufacturers are therefore obliged to ensure that the situation never occurs in the first place. This is achieved by retarding the ignition and drowning the engine in fuel.
By correcting the fuelling to provide a more uniform progression to a richer mixture under full load, and providing the appropriate amount of ignition advance, the full potential can be safely revealed. This gives a much more linear throttle response, where power output is proportional to throttle position. This is always done in the context of the likely quality of the fuel that will be used by the vehicle.
The standard system is mapped up to 5500RPM. Whilst this may be adequate in a standard Range Rover, it is not adequate for the more highly tuned variants. This is especially true for manual transmission applications in lightweight sports cars. In these cases the map is typically extended up to 6500RM, and beyond if appropriate.
Special versions of this software are available to accommodate non-standard engine sizes and installations.
http://www.tornadosystems.com/product/land-rover-g...
Details from Mark's website:
The Lucas-Sagem GEMS system is one of the most sophisticated Rover V8 engine management systems available. It responds exceptionally well to a software upgrade. The software upgrade itself is carried in a pair of EPROM chips to replace the existing ones within the ECU.
As you would expect, the upgrades are fully compatible with the standard vehicle diagnostic and security systems. Service and fault diagnosis procedures are unaltered, and the upgrade is undetectable to Land Rover TestBook. For both 4.0 and 4.6 engines you gain approximately 10-15BHP, and the engine will rev much more smoothly and eagerly. Improvements in fuel economy of 10-15% should also be seen.
Normally these engines are not very interested in revving much further than 4500RPM, and they also feature a flat spot on full load between 1750 and 3250RPM. Most of the available response is seen on the first and last 25% of the throttle pedal travel, whilst the 50% in the middle doesn’t make much difference.
Such characteristics are not unique to the Lucas-Sagem system. This behaviour is displayed by most modern cars, which have to comply with very tough exhaust emission legislation as the first priority. Emission standards for manufacturers are so demanding that they need to use every trick in the book to ensure compliance.
Many other operating characteristics are addressed. These include idle speed, idle stability, shift patterns, cold starting, crank fuelling, rev limit, etc. Even the rate of engine acceleration is controlled by the ECU, and this too has received attention to make the response more sporty.
Therefore this is a thorough treatment of the entire set of operating characteristics that goes far beyond ignition or fuelling adjustments. GEMS systems have two computers in the ECU, hence this is a two-chip solution.
How does it work?
Modern cars are also developed to be suitable for sale in very large world territories without modification (e.g. Europe, North America, etc.,). Therefore they need to cope with very poor quality fuel in some territories, and extreme operating conditions. This must all be achieved without suffering engine damage, so they are engineered for worst-case scenarios.
Since we already know the vehicle territory and conditions, some of the compromises that are necessary to the manufacturers may be removed during the upgrade process.
The toughest emission test to pass is the warm-up phase, where most of the unwanted emissions are produced. This test gets more difficult to pass as engine capacity increases.
To assist with this part of the cycle, the engine is run with part-load ignition advance that leads to quick catalyst warm-up. A natural consequence of this is that the engine loses efficiency, which is bad for economy. Fortunately for us this situation can be easily corrected with only a marginal increase in catalyst warm-up time, and no effect on warm operation. The pay-off is a big improvement in fuel consumption!
Typically there is an improvement in fuel economy of approximately 10-15%. This is partly because the car has much more mid-range torque, so it does not need to be driven so hard. You should see a minimum of 10% improvement (on a healthy vehicle) no matter how you drive it.
Under high engine load and speed conditions, there is the danger of detonation and pre-ignition. This can have a disastrous effect on the pistons if it is allowed to persist. The Lucas-Sagem GEMS system features a very sophisticated knock detection system to detect and correct this situation. Each cylinder is monitored and mapped individually in real time.
However in an aluminium engine such as the Rover V8, there is so much mechanical noise transmitted through the block at high load and speed that it becomes difficult to detect the onset of this condition. The manufacturers are therefore obliged to ensure that the situation never occurs in the first place. This is achieved by retarding the ignition and drowning the engine in fuel.
By correcting the fuelling to provide a more uniform progression to a richer mixture under full load, and providing the appropriate amount of ignition advance, the full potential can be safely revealed. This gives a much more linear throttle response, where power output is proportional to throttle position. This is always done in the context of the likely quality of the fuel that will be used by the vehicle.
The standard system is mapped up to 5500RPM. Whilst this may be adequate in a standard Range Rover, it is not adequate for the more highly tuned variants. This is especially true for manual transmission applications in lightweight sports cars. In these cases the map is typically extended up to 6500RM, and beyond if appropriate.
Special versions of this software are available to accommodate non-standard engine sizes and installations.
motul1974 said:
DEFINITELY not a gag...I love the idea of our cars running on lpg, but, this question was one for my RRC. Its already got a single point system on it and rather thought of making it run a heap better really appeals. :-)
As I'm sure you know already a singe point LPG system is very very old technology, it functions much the same as a really crude carburettor and the results reflect this. Actually a single point system is more akin to bucket with a hole in the bottom in terms of fuel delivery sophistication, single points are the key the reason so many bar room experts will try to convince you LPG is rubbish.To make LPG work properly you definitely need to move to gas injection, as such the arrival of electronic LPG injection was even more game changing than when petrol cars moved from carbs to injection. You can make a car run quite nicely on a carb because later generation petrol carburettors actually became quite sophisticated, by contrast you'll never make an LPG car run really nicely if you're using a single point delivery system because it never really progressed beyond a simple venturi with some crude fuel bleed drillings in it.
It wasn't until wide band closed loop LPG injection arrived on the scene that the fuel finally became properly managed. A Lucas-Sagem GEMS fully sequential injection system with knock control and a quality OBD connected LPG piggyback ECU running off it would take things to the next level.
By this time any comparison with a single point system would be a bit like comparing an abacus with a modern super computer.
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