Brake Servo Failed

Brake Servo Failed

Author
Discussion

RobXjcoupe

3,168 posts

91 months

Friday 13th January 2017
quotequote all
N7GTX said:
RobXjcoupe said:
N7GTX said:
RobXjcoupe said:
The brake master cylinder failed on my Griff about 3 years ago, servo wasn't too bad, with a bit of surface rust. The master cylinder was of fiesta 1.8 diesel spec though. Was wondering if the slightly later fiesta mk4/5 have the same servo as the mk3 fiesta. Same basic car?
Looked this up. The Mk3 Fiesta had an 8" servo and the Mk4 has a 9" servo. So unless someone has actually fitted one it doesn't look good. frown
I imagine in true Ford fashion the mk4 fiesta version bolts up the same as the earlier version. It's the clearance needed within the TVR.? I have no idea if it's a close fit or has room around it to accommodate the slightly bigger servo? £30 buys a second hand fiesta mk4 brake servo, just need someone with their TVR apart to try it?
When you look down into the void under the clutch master cover, the clearance on the outside is very tight at the bottom.
You can get an idea of the condition of the brake servo by opening the driver's door, getting down on your knees and with a torch look towards and behind the accelerator pedal. About a third of the servo is clearly visible behind the accelerator pedal on the outside and if yours was as bad as those in this thread you would probably see it here. You can also check for any leaks from both the brake and clutch master cylinders while you're at it.
Then get someone to help you get up off your knees.....

That picture is my servo and pedal box from 3 years ago. My servo had a bit of surface rust but nothing to worry about. The master cylinder failed hence the strip down smile

ProjectChimaera

Original Poster:

197 posts

113 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
quotequote all
RobXjcoupe said:
N7GTX said:
RobXjcoupe said:
N7GTX said:
RobXjcoupe said:
The brake master cylinder failed on my Griff about 3 years ago, servo wasn't too bad, with a bit of surface rust. The master cylinder was of fiesta 1.8 diesel spec though. Was wondering if the slightly later fiesta mk4/5 have the same servo as the mk3 fiesta. Same basic car?
Looked this up. The Mk3 Fiesta had an 8" servo and the Mk4 has a 9" servo. So unless someone has actually fitted one it doesn't look good. frown
I imagine in true Ford fashion the mk4 fiesta version bolts up the same as the earlier version. It's the clearance needed within the TVR.? I have no idea if it's a close fit or has room around it to accommodate the slightly bigger servo? £30 buys a second hand fiesta mk4 brake servo, just need someone with their TVR apart to try it?
When you look down into the void under the clutch master cover, the clearance on the outside is very tight at the bottom.
You can get an idea of the condition of the brake servo by opening the driver's door, getting down on your knees and with a torch look towards and behind the accelerator pedal. About a third of the servo is clearly visible behind the accelerator pedal on the outside and if yours was as bad as those in this thread you would probably see it here. You can also check for any leaks from both the brake and clutch master cylinders while you're at it.
Then get someone to help you get up off your knees.....

That picture is my servo and pedal box from 3 years ago. My servo had a bit of surface rust but nothing to worry about. The master cylinder failed hence the strip down smile
I looked at the later Fiesta servo and master cylinders and it's quite different. The orientation of the ms to servo mounting is different. I'm pretty sure that another combination could fit with some mods but it may result in the master cylinder reservoir being in a different position and then a sealed cover would be needed for the inner wing.
A quick check of the servo is to pull out the vacuum pipe and to dipstick the inside of the servo to check for any internal brake fluid. If you are planning to remove your servo then I would advise sucking excess fluid out through this hole first, I didn't and it deposited about a pint of brake fluid in the footwell as I was removing it, not pleasant!

caduceus

6,071 posts

266 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
quotequote all
These brake fluid reservoirs are becoming very hard to get hold of now. I got mine (used by good condition) from Dom at Powers recently. But they are thin on the ground.

I wonder if it's time we started looking at finding a setup from a newer car to transplant into our Chims? scratchchin
Will be checking mine later frown

ClassicChimaera

12,424 posts

149 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
quotequote all
I think we'll all be checking ours if we take heed of the good sense on here. thumbup

ProjectChimaera

Original Poster:

197 posts

113 months

Tuesday 17th January 2017
quotequote all
New master cylinder located by a local supplier. Manufactured in Italy according to the packaging.
Cast type not steel.
These are available for about £60 + PP and VAT. Please message me if interested and I'll put you in contact with the supplier.

ProjectChimaera

Original Poster:

197 posts

113 months

Tuesday 24th January 2017
quotequote all

Pedal box and bits all painted up and ready to refit, can't say I'm looking forward to being upside down much!
Thanks to Sardonicus for help with the new servo, much appreciated.
Hopefully won't ever need to do this awkward job again.

TJC46

2,148 posts

206 months

Tuesday 24th January 2017
quotequote all
Mine failed a couple of years ago.

I was on my way to join other members on the club stand at The Tatton classic car show and i was following behind a very, very nice E-type.

Just as you need to slow down and turn into the Tatton park entrance i hit the brake pedal and not much seemed to be happening.yikes

It all happened quickly but i pressed the pedal as hard as i could and managed not to hit anything.

I had some brake of sorts, just not servo assisted, so it really needed a great deal of pressure on the pedal to stop. yikes

I attended the show and drove home very carefully.

I managed to remove the pedal box and servo without removing the steering column. yes it can be done, but in all honesty, it is the worse job you can do on the Chim.

PabloGee

257 posts

20 months

Thursday 9th March 2023
quotequote all
This is going to sound like a stupid question, and has probably been discussed before but I can't find it.

Context: my braking hydraulics appear to be fine, working as intended, but I'm replacing the clutch master/slave cylinders since the master developed a leak (not surprise after 28 years).
But it made me think about the age related condition of the brake servo/cylinder, and whilst they look 99% ok, there is a little surface rust on the servo around the connection to the cylinder. I have yet to pop off the vacuum tube from the plenum to be able to drop something in as a dipstick, so I don't know if there will be any fluid inside - no signs of fluid level dropping in the reservoir or leaking externally. Might be being over-cautious, but it's brakes so there's no such thing as being too safe.

The question is whether I need to replace with what's offered (now only via Motaclan for the full set, which comes to around £500), or if I can aim at parts that can fit with minor modifications - and potentially save a load of money. Let me be clear though, I'm not going to scrimp on cost if it doesn't do the job well and safely!
To my mind the fittings that need to align are:
Pipe connections, which is easy if I spec new hoses
Bolts to pedal box, seems simple enough, maybe drill a hole or two
Connection and therefore travel of brake pedal (hopefully not need to drill a hole)

Then the question becomes about how to spec the servo and cylinder - and of course whether I can find an integrated system that largely fits into the available space.

Anyone done this, or have a point of view?

MikeE

1,826 posts

284 months

Thursday 9th March 2023
quotequote all
PabloGee said:
This is going to sound like a stupid question, and has probably been discussed before but I can't find it.

Context: my braking hydraulics appear to be fine, working as intended, but I'm replacing the clutch master/slave cylinders since the master developed a leak (not surprise after 28 years).
But it made me think about the age related condition of the brake servo/cylinder, and whilst they look 99% ok, there is a little surface rust on the servo around the connection to the cylinder. I have yet to pop off the vacuum tube from the plenum to be able to drop something in as a dipstick, so I don't know if there will be any fluid inside - no signs of fluid level dropping in the reservoir or leaking externally. Might be being over-cautious, but it's brakes so there's no such thing as being too safe.

The question is whether I need to replace with what's offered (now only via Motaclan for the full set, which comes to around £500), or if I can aim at parts that can fit with minor modifications - and potentially save a load of money. Let me be clear though, I'm not going to scrimp on cost if it doesn't do the job well and safely!
To my mind the fittings that need to align are:
Pipe connections, which is easy if I spec new hoses
Bolts to pedal box, seems simple enough, maybe drill a hole or two
Connection and therefore travel of brake pedal (hopefully not need to drill a hole)

Then the question becomes about how to spec the servo and cylinder - and of course whether I can find an integrated system that largely fits into the available space.

Anyone done this, or have a point of view?
I'd take the servo off and inspect it before deciding if it needs replacing.

It's worth noting that the picture the OP posted (in 2007!) showed the servo split in two. They are constructed in two halves and crimped together in 4 or 5 places. It's not the crimping that provided the seal but the MC bolts being tightened that holds it all together and air (vacuum) tight. So if you undo the bolts and the crimps have either corroded a bit or been forced it would seperate into two pieces. These two peices also clamp the rubber diaphram which si what give the seal.

What I'm trying to say is surface rust does not in itself mean it needs replacing, its the quality of the seal between the two halves and the diaphram. Also if it springs a slight leak it means you are getting less servo assistance, the brakes will still work but will obviously require a heavier push to get the same stopping power.

Take it off and give it a good clean up and see how it looks. Hope this helps


s p a c e m a n

10,776 posts

148 months

Thursday 9th March 2023
quotequote all
Burton power sell pedal boxes for £600ish, if you're considering messing around with making something fit and you're doing the clutch servo anyway you'd probably be better off ripping out the Mish mash of of old ford parts that you can't buy any more and just stick one of those in. Burtons are pretty awesome at telling you what you need and what'll probably work with most things, I doubt they've done a tvr but it's all ford bits, Cossie box and escort turbo brakes

https://www.burtonpower.com/floor-mounted-bias-ped...

PabloGee

257 posts

20 months

Friday 10th March 2023
quotequote all
MikeE said:
I'd take the servo off and inspect it before deciding if it needs replacing.

It's worth noting that the picture the OP posted (in 2007!) showed the servo split in two. They are constructed in two halves and crimped together in 4 or 5 places. It's not the crimping that provided the seal but the MC bolts being tightened that holds it all together and air (vacuum) tight. So if you undo the bolts and the crimps have either corroded a bit or been forced it would seperate into two pieces. These two peices also clamp the rubber diaphram which si what give the seal.

What I'm trying to say is surface rust does not in itself mean it needs replacing, its the quality of the seal between the two halves and the diaphram. Also if it springs a slight leak it means you are getting less servo assistance, the brakes will still work but will obviously require a heavier push to get the same stopping power.

Take it off and give it a good clean up and see how it looks. Hope this helps
This is a really good shout, and a tidy up might be all it deserves. I spoke with the guys at RaceTech Direct, and the initial response was that if it's behaving itself, leave it alone. The build quality exceeds what's available now, which appears to be one factory in China who are sporadic with their supply.

Which brings it to this point, which feels like an inevitable future step since the parts really are no longer available.
I haven't spoken with Burton Power, but I don't see any reservoirs here, might be a daft assumption, but there will need to be remote reservoirs somewhere, right?. The location would obviously be where the current hydraulics sit, though potentially advantageously without the silly clutch cylinder cover as an openable and leaky thing...

s p a c e m a n said:
Burton power sell pedal boxes for £600ish, if you're considering messing around with making something fit and you're doing the clutch servo anyway you'd probably be better off ripping out the Mish mash of of old ford parts that you can't buy any more and just stick one of those in. Burtons are pretty awesome at telling you what you need and what'll probably work with most things, I doubt they've done a tvr but it's all ford bits, Cossie box and escort turbo brakes

https://www.burtonpower.com/floor-mounted-bias-ped...
Edited by PabloGee on Friday 10th March 10:38

s p a c e m a n

10,776 posts

148 months

Friday 10th March 2023
quotequote all
I honestly haven't delved too far into it as when my servo failed I managed to get a replacement fairly easily, but my plan was to have remote reservoirs and just do away with the servo if I couldn't find one. The car weighs nothing, has no abs, I don't think it really needs servo assist for the brakes.

I've seen mk3/4 escorts with pedal boxes and no servo so it's not impossible. As I say though, it was just an half hours of thought whilst I was trying to find a replacement servo so more research is needed on what to get and where to put it.

PabloGee

257 posts

20 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
So I took it all out - a bit of a tricky job, but managed it without taking the steering column out - but did unbolt the accelerator pedal mountings for two reasons: to reduce the size of the object I was trying to get past the steering column, and as I didn't fancy trying to feed the accelerator cable back through (it's in a very awkward position to reach).


Order of operations was (get some rubber gloves, or a box of latex gloves to protect hands from brake fluid):

Photograph everything that will be taken out for reference, and keep snapping as you go!

Take driver seat out, put it in the lounge, annoy wife

Clutch m/c was slightly tricky, two person job, with a small socket wrench and a small extender to get the bottom bolt through the clutch cover hole; the clevis pin is a badger to get off, but not impossible, just pushed it off with a flat screwdriver and a spot of contortionism. Then take out the copper pipe from cylinder to bulkhead block - awkward but makes the rest of it a bit easier. Mine had failed seals, so there was hardly any fluid in it, but definitely draw out fluid in the reservoir with a syringe first.

Unbolt servo from footwell end
Disconnect servo from brake pedal (mine was just a pin, easy)
Unbolt accelerator pedal - the bracket at the top (two large bolts), and the pivot - I could get a small socket head on the nut that sits inside the pedal box side - hangs loose
Unbolt brake light switch (bolt on the side you can't see), tuck out of the way. I disconnected mine from the wires, and put aside.
Unbolt pedal box - two through to wheel arch - needs a second person (got my eldest son to help there), four at top to inner wing - no need for second person as the nuts are welded to the pedal box.
Get a stick to hold bonnet up, as one of the bolts secures the bonnet stay.
Disconnect the bonnet release catch in the engine bay, pull wire through grommet, catch all the bits that come off the end, and draw entirely though into footwell (I didn't remove the pull handle in the footwell)
Cover the bonnet catch with something to prevent it from clicking in again (I need to put the bonnet down when not working on it, as the car sits on my drive)
Draw fluid from brake fluid reservoir, careful not to get it on anything - have a bottle of water handy to rinse away if you do
-> Here I put the car on axle stands and removed the wheels to start bleeding the brakes, but after the first wheel decided not to fully bleed in order to reduce drawing air into the pipe system
Get some small cable ties, pieces of string, elastic bands, whatever, to mark which pipe comes from which hole - I had some coloured cable ties that I found in my dad's stationery drawer the other weekend! - put them onto the pipes at the engine bay side of the block, then match on footwell side of the block.
Undo the three brake pipes to bulkhead block (with old rags etc to catch the brake fluid)

Then you can get the pedal box out, with clutch and brake pedal swinging loose around the steering column. It's tricky, but possible.

Last bit to get the servo and brake m/c (with reservoir attached) out - I undid the vacuum hose at the plenum end and fed through the grommet, but that's because I couldn't get any purchase or leverage on the pipe to servo connection. The first thing I'll do when reinstalling will be to feed this pipe back through.

Overall a tricky job, but not impossible with a dash of patience. Would definitely have been easier if I'd removed the steering column, but I didn't want to have to deal with universal joints etc on top of all the rest.

This is what I got to:
A slightly rusty pedal box




A slightly more rusty servo, but once I'd popped the vacuum pipe out, I could see the diaphragm was covered in rust spots. Could be ok for a while.



Then I separated the M/c from the servo and found a load of gunge between the two, as well as brake fluid in the hole.
Interesting, since there has been no discernible drop in brake fluid in the reservoir, but it didn't seem to have dropped into the servo yet.




Anyway, I took it to my local mechanic who basically suggested they would be ok with a clean up, but if I wanted longevity I should replace - which confirmed my point of view. Do it properly, and do it once for the next decade hopefully.

So, new stuff on order from Motaclan, £500ish for both parts (servo, and m/c with reservoir), even more annoyed wife...

For the pedal box, I've brushed away the rust, sanded it, and given it a decent coat of POR-15 (carefully avoiding any moving joins or threads/bolts of course). So that should be in fine fettle.

My next mission is to avoid damaging the copper pipes when I refit, as I'll be loosely positioning the assembled servo and m/c with pipes already attached to the cylinder, prior to wrangling the pedal box back in...

I'll update on the refit, so anyone interested can see how I tackled it.

Edited by PabloGee on Monday 20th March 11:58


Edited by PabloGee on Monday 20th March 12:01

PabloGee

257 posts

20 months

Wednesday 29th March 2023
quotequote all
In between waiting for the crap weather to pass, and for various parts and tools to be acquired, I replaced all those bits:

New clutch master and slave cylinder
New brake master cylinder and servo
You can see the difference between the brake cylinder/reservoir - a more solid cast & machined unit in aluminium.
The new slave cylinder was already on the car when I took this photo




I also replaced the hard lines to the bulkhead block with cunifer as a couple of the fittings had flared through being tightened and I couldn't actually get them into the new threads in the cylinders! Made me feel slightly nervous about having potentially weeping joins in a place I can't see, nor nip up without taking it all out again. Cunifer is very easy to work with, just bend and shape slowly and gently by hand to avoid creases/kinks, you can gently form around something like a broom handle (I used the rubbery handle of a file) for tighter bends that go into the m/c fittings (but you need to do that in advance of fitting due to access).

I now know that the entire brake line system in the car has been replaced in the last few years/few thousand miles (previous owner did body off and replaced brake/fuel lines).

I scrubbed down and painted the pedal box with POR-15, replaced the pedal rubbers (easiest was to get some Triumph ones that are exactly the same size), replaced the brake light switch which I broke when I took it off (got one from Euro Car Parts that was exactly the same dimensions for a tenner)!






The clutch master cylinder needed me to reuse the old push pin, which I cleaned up and added rust treatment, then a new clevis pin with a little lithium grease.

I also had to drill out the push pin hole on the servo, as the new one was 10mm, but the old pin and brake pedal hole is 11mm. That's the drill bit you never get in a set!



The other nuance was that the servo/mc/reservoir construct is slightly longer than what came out, so I had to get my multitool cutter thing to extend the reservoir hole in the inner wing by around 5mm so it didn't put the whole thing (the seals) under tension. You can't tell now that I have Sikaflex'd it back in.
You can also see the clutch m/c extender, which makes me feel much more confident about the quantity of fluid for the stroke of the piston, but has created the need for a new cover. Fortunately a mate of mine who specialises in making moulds and forms for RC car body shells is helping me model a new one in fibreglass. I'll share my update on that one too.



Anyway, it's all back in, a slight pig of a job, but not impossible. Aside of the cost, the tricky bit is doing up the bolts on the pedal box, and the clutch master cylinder - needs two people to get at either end, but all the other bits I could do myself.


Slight pause now as we go away for a couple of weeks, and the car has to sit with its cover on whilst the weather is poor, but it is back together to get through its MOT!


Edited by PabloGee on Wednesday 29th March 10:03

Daryl357

24 posts

159 months

Wednesday 29th March 2023
quotequote all
Great job and thanks for posting clear pictures. It's always a help to see what you will encounter before doing the job personally.